I don't even like Cake or Coffee as it happens
are you human?
It's urban commuting that kills rims IME. I never wore rims out (or pads particularly regularly) until I started riding through town regularly. I'm sure I could improve longevity by taking a degree of care of my winter/commuter bike too, but sod that.
are you human?
I'm sure he's human but he's definitely not a roadie 😀
I mean that entirely in jest and with a huge sense of irony mtbel. I'm not one for rules either and actually I think the Velomenati's first rule - it's all about the bike - is the only one that really counts. Just ride your bike. Be a 'cyclist' not a 'roadie' or a this or a that. It's fine to identify with one branch of passion more than the other of course.
I'd opt for disc brakes if they came as standard on a new bike. Just for the wet weather thing.
I'm currently using some Mavic Kysrium SLS clinchers with dura ace 9000 brakes and the pads have small lumps of the rim brake surface embedded in them.
I'm sure most are familiar with the grinding sound conventional brakes makes on a wet alloy rim. It's not an illusion, we really are grinding down that rim and so for me, replacing a brake disc is preferable to replacing the wheel/wheel rim, albeit that having to replace the wheel for brake wear is thankfully a very infrequent event in my experience.
It's urban commuting that kills rims IME.
Yes I would agree with that and it would tally with what mtbel was saying without also contradicting other peoples' experiences.
agreed. Kills nice roadbikes too.It's urban commuting that kills rims IME
As it was taken GeeTee 😉 I'm the first to admit I'm not really a "roadie", don't even see myself as a cyclist TBH.. I just love riding bikes and really don't identify with any one branch in particular... I'm the one on 100mile clubrides with BMX spd shoes, no lid, gloves or gels. the DHer on flats with no 5:10s or garish colours and bald tyres, the XC rider in a cotton T-shirt and the ancient BMXer who's still shit and can't fit in skinny jeans. Cycling is too fashion driven and cliquey for me really and I'm just as happy riding a 25 year old beater as a 2015 superbike.
Oooooohhh... get you I don't even like Cake or Coffee as it happens. I've already said elsewhere that I ride all year round but just to qualify for your badge of AWESOME that does indeed include all weathers, day and night.
Just so long as it's anti-clockwise and you wash your bike immediately afterwards...
Sounds like fun. Not.
I was looking at a cheap (Lynskey) ti disc frame but I'd need new wheels (I like my Ultegras) and wheels are important aren't they.
more fun than sand in yer chamois by the sounds of it, yes.
more fun than sand in yer chamois by the sounds of it, yes.
Is that what happens when you ride clockwise?
nippy wee thing ain'cha?
Debating the same as the OP.I', planning a new roadbike for my 40th.
It now worryingly seems I may end up just getting the same frame as Hora.
FFS.. 🙄
nippy wee thing ain'cha?
I can even type English.
Just buy his 5 minute old one in a few weeks nick 😉
If you live in Sheffield or anywhere hilly you don't have any choice about braking. I'd love to brake less to save my rims.
I'm not English
Just buy his 5 minute old one in a few weeks nick
Good plan Mick..
Oh, BTW, you still thinking of going back into comms?
Drivetesting is about £4-500 a day at the minute...
The wages are getting back to what they were.
Its pretty good out here at the mo.. 🙂
Yeah mate id love to i was gonna mail you other week as it happens but ive been off it. I could sure do with the wage rise 😉 any help/info appreciated mate
Well I must be an eejit 'cause I've not long replaced my CX frame and wheels and stayed with cantis (bike gets ridden in and around Sheffield and the Peaks, off-road too).
The way I see it is that you don't need discs on a road bike, but if you want them you can, and yes they will be better.
But, do we need better? Modern caliper brakes already have good stopping power. But wait long enough and the industry will convince us that rim brakes don't work and your road bike will be unstoppable without disc brakes ...
Teetosugars I have good taste in cars, bikes and women so you're in good company.
Rim brakes on my newest road bike. Rim on the bike I'm about to have built.
Never in my entire life have my rim brakes been wanting, and I simply hate the look of discs. So I hope and prey rim brakes will be around for years yet.
Satisfy my luddite brain.
Disc rims lighter?
If yes does that include the disc and hardware i.e the breaking surface now absent?
Radial spoking a no no with discs?
Overheating on Alpine descents sorted?
Just dreading the day when the incompetent racer at the local crit has even more sudden stopping power.
What will be will be, but I just hope 'I' can always get rim brake stuff.
pretty certain I'm the only rider on here that the industry didn't convince of that with mountain bikes so you may well be onto something there theonlywayisup.
short, slack, ugly and top-heavy to you says good taste Hora?
Oh yes, bought a new CXer for the start of the 2014/15 season and went for canti's.
Three of the four riders I know on discs have had issues, early days teething issues granted and not hydro.
Mtbel I own none of those so stop being an attention whore x
Love my discs on my winter bike, solid, dependable power all the time and the bike is way easier to clean without all the scummy shitty grime that builds up off rim brakes. I had 'em stinking the other day after a twisty steep descent in the dark which I thought was awesome and put a grin® on my face, rim brakes would have been slower. It'll be intersting which way the peloton goes but this doesn't/shouldn't matter to 99% of riders, choose what looks the best, both are around to stay for the foreseeable and both do the job just slightly differently.
@oldgit, your questions and my probably not 100% correct thoughts ...
Disc rims lighter?
I was going to say yes/probably. I recently built up some wheels using DT Swiss TK540 rims. I just checked and they have the same quoted weight for the disc and rim brake versions.
If yes does that include the disc and hardware i.e the breaking surface now absent?
The weight of discs, calipers, pads, levers, cables or hydraulic reservoir & hoses is greater than the kit needed for rim brakes, so definitely not lighter.
Radial spoking a no no with discs?
I don't know for sure. I did have an MTB front wheel (Fulcrum) that was radially spoked on the drive side and 3-cross on the disc brake side. I guess that suggests discs and radial spokes are not ideal.
Overheating on Alpine descents sorted?
Probably, but in the past I've heard that excessive heat in a hydraulic system can heat up the brake fluid and detrimentally affect braking. Still an issue?
But, do we need better? Modern caliper brakes already have good stopping power.
Do we need better? Well better rim brakes have been around for ages in the form of v-brakes and would have been a relatively easy jump for road bikes to make, yet no one bothered.
Never in my entire life have my rim brakes been wanting
I'm much the same. Though if I spent some time on a road bike with discs I suspect my brain would be slowly re-calibrated and going back would likely find rim brakes wanting.
Well better rim brakes have been around for ages in the form of v-brakes and would have been a relatively easy jump for road bikes to make, yet no one bothered.
Actually they have:
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Not too wide spread yet but they may end up being.
Nah, can't see that happening. Although maybe with direct mount frames/forks.
Rim weights will be interesting. A really light tub rim is in the 220-230g range at the moment, can't see they'll go lighter than that. Deeper section rims, and clinchers, I reckon we'll get lighter with discs, not convinced overall weight of wheels will come down though.
Not too wide spread yet but they may end up being.
Not really with the intention of better braking performance though!
Well I've just bought my 1st road bike and it has discs fitted. I wanted to future proof my purchase but the fiscs were only part of that, also wanted a di2 ready frame.
There are loads of different road bikes out there and brake type is only 1 of the factors to take into account when choosing which bike to go for.
Coming from a mountain bike background I'm used to disc brakes albiet hydraulic, It's what I'm used to and didn't want wheels that would need replaced due to rim wear, cheaper to rellace discs and pads than rims and blocks.
I believe discs on road bikes are the future but being the go to option a fair way off, but once more of the big players set their stalls out on discs and aftermarket upgrade options improve they'll become the majority.
Not really with the intention of better braking performance though!
Well 3M didn't create the Post It Note ouf of the intention to invent a glue that sort of stuck but didn't quite. 😀
But no I grant you, the driving force behind those brakes is improved aerodynamics. It's still a V-Brake though. Has a 'noodle' and everything.
Good road brakes are as good as Vs anyway. The reason MTBs used cantis and Vs was more to do with clearance than doing power.
Actually they have:
And Giant, on Propels.
I find it just a teeny bit interesting that a big name player like Giant go for discs big time, but just on the Defy's, their endurance bike. Yet their flagship bike the TCR remains a rim job.
Discs are clearly a market driven thing, but the Giant move to disc up the Defy to me says there is a divide between riders and racers. Or maybe that's me as I don't want discs to come near race bikes.
I'm sure disc bike manufacturers will let us know how much better they are at just about everything, and the pros that openly say at the mo that they prefer rim brakes, will when they're being paid to ride on discs say how they prefer those.
I find it just a teeny bit interesting that a big name player like Giant go for discs big time, but just on the Defy's, their endurance bike. Yet their flagship bike the TCR remains a rim job.
Trek have done the same with the Domane, as have Specialized with the Roubaix. Guess it's a nod to the sort of person they expect to want to go disc - sportive type rider, MAMIL, new golf fad type folk, not your racers.
Discs are clearly a market driven thing, but the Giant move to disc up the Defy to me says there is a divide between riders and racers.
There is but that might be also to do with the UCI not sanctioning disc brakes yet for use in competition.
I could be wrong about this but I think that if an amateur road race is held in the UK and sponsored by the BCF then the bike you compete on has to be UCI legal.
I was just trying to remember when I actually had to brake in a road race and apart from scrubbing a little speed here and there I can't. Suggests for road racing at least weight and aero are drivers not brake performance.
Are Campagnolo working on a disc brake? I suspect those who prefer Campag over Shimano won't go near discs until they've brought something to market, which is a fair chunk of riders
Weren't Campag looking to work with Formula? Sure I read that somewhere.
After 2 weeks riding with Shimano hydro on my commuter, I wouldn't hesitate to get a proper road bike with discs. The only thing stopping me would be the fact that I couldn't race it. If you're not racing, hydro disks all the way for me.
Anyone who thinks rim brakes are never found wanting either doesn't ride in the rain much, or loves arm pump on steep descents.
but the Giant move to disc up the Defy to me says there is a divide between riders and racers
Says to me that Giant know their market. We won't be seeing Giant Defys racing the classics, although to be fair, Sep Vanmarke's 2013 Defy SL was actually a hybrid of Defy frame with TCR geometry.
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I have upgraded Fourier brakes on my Propel and they are absolutely awesome. I can't imagine wanting more power or modulation. The original Propel brakes were not great to be honest, but they have upgraded them now. Giant Alpecin are still racing Fouriers, and I know exactly why.
Good road brakes are as good as Vs anyway.
Not in the wet. And deep drops are even worse.
agree with above comments re Giant. For us mere mortals hydraulic discs make huge sense unless riding largely in the dry. I have had a cx/winter road/touring bike for around 8 yrs, initially a Jake the Snake with canti's, then a Croix de Fer with mechanical discs, and now one with shimano hydraulics. Each one has been a step up in braking performance, with no downsides that I can see.
As per my earlier post, my 'good summer bike' is a Defy Composite with Ultegra rim brakes, which are great for 'good summer' riding, which is pretty much 95% of the bike's useage.
Deeper section rims, and clinchers, I reckon we'll get lighter with discs
I don't - we haven't on mtb rims
I don't - we haven't on mtb rims
I know it won't just be njee that agrees with me in begging to differ with you here... Lightest rim brake MTB rim is/was...? Probably Mavic 717 at roughly 400g each. The Stans Podium MMX disc specific rims are over 100g lighter per rim!
Removing the requirement of the rim to withstand braking forces means it can be (but often isn't) designed to be lighter, it's pretty simple really.
eh? 717s are nowhere near the lightest mtb rims that even Mavic made
Enlighten us then... What is the lightest rim brake rim? I'd hazard a guess Mavic's lightest was their original Crossmax rim, I have weighed one, forget what it was, something like 380g I think.
Podiums are c285g, Innolite did the XCC250, which was <250g.
I've no idea Njee (and don't really care. but 230s (and IIRC 231s) were a good bit lighter than 717s and weren't as light as many other rim brake rims back in the 90s.
I thought you'd given up on the pompous goading. 🙄 You don't know everything. You're far too young to remember a lot of stuff I and many others will so please just chill out a bit in your approach.
At no point have I said I know everything, I'm not aware of any sub-300g production rim brake rims - your dismissive tone suggested you had a better answer, I'm genuinely interested. You have a habit of giving a hideously condescending response, with no facts whatsoever. Just like here.
As for goading. That's rich Gary, well done.
Edit: M231s were 410g.
Edit edit: M230s were about 380g
at the risk of interrupting this love-in...
then a Croix de Fer with mechanical discs, and now one with shimano hydraulics. Each one has been a step up in braking performance, with no downsides that I can see.
my Hack has cheap Promax cable discs that I was fully expecting to have to replace. They are as good as the original Hope Minis I bought (on the same rotor size), which were my first discs and a bit underwhelming after all the hype. Not tried hydraulics on drop-barred bikes but I am struggling to justify upgrading to Spyres let alone hydros.
Not saying hydros aren't better, just that I'm impressed how good even cheap mechanicals are.
The lightest v brake wheels I had (still do on an old Klein) were the last pre-disc Crossmax at ~1600g the pair, not sure what the rims alone weigh but the lightest 26" disc Crossmax now are about 1450g for comparison.
I still think the main benefits are more reliable braking, maybe nicer rim profiles & obviously your rims will last longer so you can justify nice spangly ones - or even Open Pro CDs / those nice Grey TB14 which won't look scruffy after a few months of use but that's purely from an aesthetic point of view... still important to some though 8)
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Stans Podium MMX aren't lighter because they are disc specific per se, but because they are pressure limited to a max of 33 psi. I had a set of Mavic 230's back in the day and you could run them at around 60-70 psi easily. (I used to use road tyres on mine for road training as I couldn't afford a road bike).
Worth noting that the Mavic 230 was out around 1994 and yet we haven't made huge progress in aluminium rim weights in 20 years.
my road bikes won't be replaced for a long time so I'll be sticking with rim brakes and I'm happy with them - but if I had to get another it would have discs
commuting definitely cos the crap weather burns through the rims and it weakens the wheel, I've found that it's not that the rim wears to the point of cracking but more that a pothole strike will kill a wheel that has done some miles whereas a new wheel would shrug off a strike
summer road bike - I would be happier to spend money on carbon (or posh alu) rims knowing that they aren't going to be an ultimately consumable part
I would have thought that the UCI would try discs on TT bikes because there's no issues with neutral service, and callipers can be duff on tt bikes cos they try to make them aero which makes them less effective...
but rim brakes wouldn't be a bad idea at all, tried and tested and easy to maintain etc
Stans Podium MMX aren't lighter because they are disc specific per se, but because they are pressure limited to a max of 33 psi. I had a set of Mavic 230's back in the day and you could run them at around 60-70 psi easily. (I used to use road tyres on mine for road training as I couldn't afford a road bike).Worth noting that the Mavic 230 was out around 1994 and yet we haven't made huge progress in aluminium rim weights in 20 years.
Pretty unusual to want to run 2.1" tyres at 60psi though, not sure that's a bad thing to have reduced the envelope in which they work. I'd say that having reduced weight by almost 30% is pretty good.
I take your point re the podiums, but I don't think it's like for like even with Crossmax's.
Did Stan's do a rim brake rim? What did it weigh compared to its contemporaneous disc Stan's rims.
My Stans Alphas would weigh 320gm, I suppose that's a valid comparison, so 10% odd seems reasonable.
I WAS WRONG!
Nice to see you back trolling GW/Gary Extreme (mtbel), couldn't stay away despite slagging all the stw fannies off on Facebook eh?
What a surprise.
Yes it's amusing to watch mtbel morph back into GW!
I think the Stan's 355 was 370g in rim brake flavour.
I thought his responses were a bit 'pointy'
I ran 25mm spesh road tyres on 230s at 90psi for a few chaingangs. Admit it, a little sex wee just escaped didn't it? 😛
crashtestmonkey - Member
at the risk of interrupting this love-in...
then a Croix de Fer with mechanical discs, and now one with shimano hydraulics. Each one has been a step up in braking performance, with no downsides that I can see.
my Hack has cheap Promax cable discs that I was fully expecting to have to replace. They are as good as the original Hope Minis I bought (on the same rotor size), which were my first discs and a bit underwhelming after all the hype. Not tried hydraulics on drop-barred bikes but I am struggling to justify upgrading to Spyres let alone hydros.Not saying hydros aren't better, just that I'm impressed how good even cheap mechanicals are.
When I got the CX Experts on my first CDF they were a big step up on the rim brakes on my Jake - infact I said so, so we are in agreement 🙂
....and as you say, you haven't tried the drop bar hydraulics.... 😛