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From memory the Switch9er doesn’t have the very low stand over, top tube seat stay straight line from Head tube to axle that seems popular at the moment does it? I seem to recall it’s about half way between the old style double triangle and this?
My Switchback has very similar stand over and relative angle between top tube and seat stays - albeit with a significantly steeper seat tube angle. It doesn’t have a brace.
Without axle and collar my tarn frame is 2.7kg i
Interesting. Thanks for the info. At that rate I'd put the Yarn back on my list. I'd eliminated it for being porky.
My Switchback has very similar stand over and relative angle between top tube and seat stays – albeit with a significantly steeper seat
I seem to remember that the smallest Switchback had a top tube and chain stay line that was basically straight but the larger one didn't. I'm sure I remember that one version of the Switch9er had the seattube brace. Is the geo of the two similar?
Reminds me of an old Trailstar, heavy and a lot of fun. It'll go uphill, not as well as a lighter bike but that's not what it's for (despite the BS blurb). Not a fan of the brace but if you want a dropper you need support for the seat tube.
The XL 2012 Rockhopper frame I bought off here for £25 last year weighs 1.9kg and has a 140mm headtube. Goes uphill like a rat out of a trap…just sayin,’ like.
Cool story. How does it go downhill? Not as good as this I bet. Not steel either, is it?
Is it made from plain gauge 4130 tubing? If it's not even butted 4130 why would anyone buy one? Especially when you can buy similar with heat treated butted tubes for a little more. It's not 1902 FFS!
Those of you with newer steel frames like this.
Do they genuinely still have 'the steel feel' going on?
I'm seeing braces on seatstay's, big gussets on headtube area, thicker seat tube and corresponding seatpost and overall bigger diameter tubes. None of them seem to add up to a compliant ride?
I think so, but a fair bit of it is probably tubeless tyres. I had one of the older Tarns and sold it for the Orange evo Clockwork frame. Back on another Tarn and I think there is a difference over stutter bumps etc,similar geo but I think the tarn keeps a line better.
It’s not 1902 FFS!
You realise that 853 is 4130 subjected to additional treatments? So is 531, 525 and 725 probably some of the others too, but I cant be bothered to look.
Thanks for all the feedback. Reading all the replies really did put me in some doubt, especially the weight side of it. However, this is a slightly cheaper end steel frame which is not really any different weight wise to most of the “alternatives” offered up, seems the best so far is the Tarn, which is only 417gms lighter. It’s probably the same weight as the Cotic BFe and on one big dog.
If I’m honest this is definitely my second choice, I want a Sonder Ti frame but just can’t find a second hand one.
I will write a review one built up.
Not steel either, is it?
Kinda the point. I've owned plenty of 'classic' steel frames over the years including, briefly, a custom job from an STW strokers' favourite (sent back because the dropouts were misaligned). So much bollocks in the cycling industry. I'd take a light, stiff aluminium frame over steel every time - certainly steel like this Sonder, in any case...
I think that's where I'm thinking again Montgomery.
My Alu HT with 2.4 tyres and reasonable saddle feels fine - certainly no less comfy than my pre-CEN, sprightly Sanderson. And it's significantly lighter and cheaper.
I think back in the day when we were all on 2.2's that weren't that supple carcasses at 30psi+, the 27.2 seatpost and minor BB flex of steel was noticeable.
These (cheaper end of things) heavier, bigger tubed, gusseted and bolt through 'new' steel frames just cannot have the advantages of the older ones - yet come at a weight and price penalty....?
Congratulations on missing the main point about butting, introduced in 1902. The advance that led to the lightweight steel bicycle frame.
You realise that 853 is 4130 subjected to additional treatments?
No, it's not, nor is its relative 631. Both have additional alloying elements which 4130 does not. Additional treatments? Like being drawn from a billet and formed into a seamless butted tube before going through a series of heat treatments, rather than rolled up and welded out of a sheet, possibly without any butting process. Aren't these relevant steps?
So is 531,
No, it's not.
525 and 725
Correct, or at least very similar alloys to 4130 but both are butted and in the case of 725, heat treated.
probably some of the others too, but I cant be bothered to look.
Clearly. Maybe you should've or maybe you ought to change your username?
That last sentence has got to burn!
Happy to be corrected. This is useful.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/41xx_steel
4130 is regarded as a decent engineering material, its certainly not 'gas pipe' like many on here think.
Reynolds are buggers for obfuscating the detail under their trademark numbers.
4130 but both are butted and in the case of 725, heat treated.
Yes, perhaps its semantics, but I dont regard the physical manipulation or treatment to change what the actual material is. Properties. Yes, but not the material.
Maybe you should’ve or maybe you ought to change your username?
This is an internet forum full of bike nerds and knob jockeys. Deal with it petal.
That last sentence has got to burn!
I suppose it would if you had the fragile ego of a child.
It is not semantics, it's engineering. I don't care so much about the material, only it's properties.
I am quite happy with 4130 (and wilfully missed the point you were making ;)) as a material but there's just no excuse for not butting it unless you're making practice frames or BSOs to sell in Tesco. It's frankly a disgrace on a 'proper' bike, especially of this type (maybe acceptable on a jump bike). Either they are too stupid to specify butted tubes or they think we are too stupid to notice (or they have specified them but didn't realise it's important to say so).
Reynolds were buggers in that way but increasingly less so, they're quite open that 953 is 17-4PH and 921 is 21-6-9, that 525/0 and 725 are essentially 4130. 531's composition is public. Maybe they'd say what 853/631 is if asked.
For the last 120 years the belief has been that tube properties, modified by various alloying elements, butting and other cold work and heat treating properties are very, very important when you are building or specifying bike frames.
I just didn't get the memo that we don't regard them as relevant anymore.
It is not semantics, it’s engineering. I don’t care so much about the material, only it’s properties.
Agreed.
I find it so incomprehensible that they would have used non butted tubes I had completely parsed it from my considerations!
Have they actually said they're using straight gauge? If so, thats just mental.
(and wilfully missed the point you were making ;))
I know. 😉
It’s a nice grey bicycle and I will enjoy riding it 😉
People on here always seem to expect bikes to be cheaper. These will sell to people who’ll see them as well priced… of which they’ll be plenty.
How dare people have expectations!
Have they not heard that familiar old adage:
"Heavier, weaker, More expensive, pick two..."
People should be bloody grateful that the purveyors of cheap drybag, down jackets and. Titanium Mugs have deigned to slap a price tag on a collection of steel tubes...
Of course. The real worry is that they're about to start playing the OO/PX pricing game and that the "discounted" price will only appear on dates selected by some mysterious mathematical formula. That would be a shame.
Seat angle probably looks slack because unsagged long travel forks anyways make hardtails look slack.
Nah, almost all bikes are photographed 'unsagged' it just looks a bit slack in the seat tube...
It would be odd to use butted tubes and not mention it anywhere in the spec or press? I asked them.
I seem to remember that the smallest Switchback had a top tube and chain stay line that was basically straight but the larger one didn’t. I’m sure I remember that one version of the Switch9er had the seattube brace. Is the geo of the two similar?
Definitely similar!
Nah, almost all bikes are photographed ‘unsagged’ it just looks a bit slack in the seat tube…
Yes, but the effect of making the seat tube slacker only applies to hardtails... and more so when you put long travel forks on there. Because hardtails only sag at one end.. obvs.
Kinda the point. I’ve owned plenty of ‘classic’ steel frames over the years including, briefly, a custom job from an STW strokers’ favourite (sent back because the dropouts were misaligned). So much bollocks in the cycling industry. I’d take a light, stiff aluminium frame over steel every time – certainly steel like this Sonder, in any case…
Ah okay, I see your point now. Still wouldn't compare it to a Rockhopper though. But regardless, steel is real, didn't you get the memo? Everything else is plastic and beer cans.
“Heavier, weaker, More expensive, pick two…”
Er, no, mainly because you have it arse about tit. Cheap, light, strong; pick two is the actual phrase, your options are pick one (unless it's 24Seven then all bets are off).
This is an internet forum full of bike nerds and knob jockeys.
Never a truer word spoken. The kind of bike nerds and knob jockeys that will argue for at least 2 pages before someone considers out loud that actual specs would be useful for forming an informed opinion and at least another five pages before someone actually bothers to find out.
I've just watched the video and am going to get one as I can't wheelie and my dog runs off when I take him with me for a ride.
This bike is a winner.
I was going to offer an opinion but feel so unqualified compared to the surprisingly large number of engineers on the forum who understand the exact differences of various steel tubing as felt on the trail, and what the weight equivalent of a morning turd would have on the riding manners.
So a I’ll keep it layman and say that it looks nice, has some nice touches that make it look nicer, and it probably rides even nicerer.
If you’re in the market for a ball park priced, big wheeled, chunky, mid travel steel hard tail and want people to say “Oooo, is that one of those new Sonders?” then why not buy one?
Just be prepared to be bored rigid by someone telling you that it’s not 853 like a Cotic you know.....
Er, no, mainly because you have it arse about tit. Cheap, light, strong; pick two is the actual phrase...
Jebus this forum needs a <sarcasm> tag!
Yes, but the effect of making the seat tube slacker only applies to hardtails… and more so when you put long travel forks on there. Because hardtails only sag at one end.. obvs.
Hmmm, you clearly want to like this bike frame.
Looking at the images it's quite clear that kink at the base of the Seat tube pulls the actual angle of the seat tube back to where it almost appears parallel with the (reported as 66 degree) Head tube, There's no mention of either angle being given as a sagged figure.
What I reckon it actually is, is a "virtual" Seat tube angle; a line traced through the BB centre and the top of the Seat tube, to massage it into a fashionably upright sounding number on the geometry chart... But that's not a 74 degree seat tube. Unless a company states any different all the numbers are usually Static....
I'm afraid I just look at it and while it seems OK, it's quite a "conventional" layout frame (nowt wrong with that) that's a bit Meaty (also fine) which they are pitching at the LLS Hardcore HT niche, and for which they want a bit more money than I think is justifiable...
I like the look of many of their bikes, I think the Cortex is a very good VFM, tidy offering, I think their "Budget Aluminium 'Frontier' is a good product for what it is, their various drop-barred bikes are nice and well priced. I just reckon the Signal Steel appears to be a bit of a duff product...
Edited for only reading page 1 🙂
The real worry is that they’re about to start playing the OO/PX pricing game and that the “discounted” price will only appear on dates selected by some mysterious mathematical formula.
Ha ha ha! No mathematician could work out that formula. Madness, it’s governed by madness.
Any way, bike looks nice, especially in the bronze colour. I love a steel hardtail. Pretty much ninety percent of the bikes I’ve owned, including the current one, have been steel hardtails. For me it’s more to do with looks than any ride characteristics. They just look like proper bikes to me. Alu and Carbon ones normally look like a shit attempt at being futuristic.
It will sell really well I think, and I bet its a nice ride.
The only thing I'm not struck on is that support on the seat post but it wouldn't put me off if I wanted one.
I bet they easily sell a 1000 of them.
I think it looks ace and a lot of fun (partly due to the launch video) plus I'm a sucker for understated graphics. It'll be interesting to see how the ride reviews compare to other similar frames. I guess it would be easy enough to shed some weight with a custom build.
Hmmm, you clearly want to like this bike frame.
No, just sharing my experiences… shooting hardtails with long travel forks without the forks sagged makes them look slacker than they are. Your point about the confusion arising from quoting effective seat angles when the seattube isn’t a straight line to the BB is also true.
Jebus this forum needs a <sarcasm> tag!
*facepalm* I'm on the night shift, leave me alone!
They are butted tubes according to alpkit/sonder.
So has anyone actually ridden a steel Signal yet?
I don't understand the appeal, weight wise or aesthetically speaking, what's nice about it, basic looking hardtail but with an ugly awkward afterthought seattube brace, whatever the designer is paid it's too much.
I’m slightly changing my mind on this one now I know it’s got butted tubes - at least it’s a reasonable spec if a little heavy.
Geometry actually looks like it might be quite fun - looking at the medium it keeps short chainstays (even it were 650b 425mm is respectably short), middling reach, not to crazy a head angle / seat angle etc.
I like the look of it in grey too and frames with this kind of seat tube brace are growing on me.
Personally I like the look of the Signal (particularly in the grey) but if you're riding tips towards XC then I really cant see the benefit of having a Signal with the extra weight (and cost) over an alloy frame (like the Frontier). Im really not convinced steel offers that fabled compliance over a alloy frame thats worth the weight penalty. If your riding is more trail/gnar and weight is less of a concern then I start to see the appeal
With bigger volume tyres I’m not sure if steel has a huge benefit now - especially if built up robust like this frame. I’m not a 29er fan so out of the Sonder bikes I’d buy a Transmitter personally.
I have just ordered a steel frame though to see what the fuss is about to replace a Vitus Sentier Frame. I love the hardtail vibe on flowy / jumpy / bermy trails but only for a couple of hours at a time when my lower back starts to grumble. Hoping a little bit of extra compliance from steel plus a bigger volume rear tyre means I can ride for longer on it. Should be a good 5 or 6 lbs lighter than my full suss bike hopefully.
Just ordered the Signal, joe, or another steel frame?
Just ordered the Signal, joe, or another steel frame
Nah, wrong wheel size. If I were going off the peg steel it’d either have been the new Ribble which is 725 and looks decent (although a bit too slack ideally) or a Stanton switchback / Slackline.
I’ve actually ordered a Marino with custom geometry and 725 butted tubes. It’s for my 40th so I’m getting it sprayed in the U.K. in a really nice paint and building it up with fairly posh components. Got some Pike ultimates on the way / I’ve built some new wheels with Erase Components Hubs and DT421 rims, got a Carbon Bar / Thompson Stem / GX 11 speed with a gold chain and am planning to order some carbon Sram cranks etc.
Hoping it builds up fairly light but robust.
Ooooh. Sounds gert lush. Looking forward to seeing pics!
What colour?
Sounds gert lush. Looking forward to seeing pics! What colour?
Midnight Candy Blue with a light dusting of spectraflare over the top for sparkles!
Doesnt sound like the kind of build you're looking to cut corners on, but I've got an XX1 crankset, 175mm not doing anything at the mo.
Midnight Candy Blue with a light dusting of spectraflare over the top for sparkles!
ooooh! Aaaah! etc. nice.
Doesnt sound like the kind of build you’re looking to cut corners on, but I’ve got an XX1 crankset, 175mm not doing anything at the mo.
If they were 170mn Dub XX1 cranks I’d be interested - but not 175 I’m afraid. I’m fairly short and have specced a reasonably low bottom bracket.
It’s not a totally bling build - I’m reusing an old ish GX mech / shifter to save money and a slightly younger GX 10-42 cassette. I was originally wondering about slx 12 speed or gx Eagle but I’m underwhelmed by the XT 12 speed on my fs bike so sticking to GX 11 for now. Just going to bang on a 30t chainring on your give me a relatively low gear.
Just saw your reply. Seems I wasn't that hopeful! 😀
If they were 170mm, they wouldn't be going spare!
I was pretty excited about XT/SLX 12 speed, but rider reports haven't lived up to the press launch enthusiasm, so I'm sticking with 10 speed for now, and pedaling harder!