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I'll make it easier, just a rear mech and shifter will do. Though with a Hope cassette we are a little nearer.
For all the wrong reasons,imo, we are likely to see home made items becoming a lot more competitively priced so who knows?
What do you guys think?
No
Why would we? I'd rather have the best over a flag.
Please don't take the question as a jingoistic, patriotic appeal.
I just mean technically and monetarily could we produce something to take on sram and Shimano?
Technically, yes. Hope and others have the design, CNC and manufacturing skills to make something excellent. Look at Paul's, Rhino et al from back in the day. See also Box making small ripples.
Monetarily, no . See above!
I’m sure we could make a very lovely, beautifully made rear mech but It would cost £400 and despite that it would be outclassed by Mechs from Sram and Shimano that cost a quarter of the cost or less in the real word.
Yeah, Box is an interesting new player. Has a long way to go but there has to be room for another player or two in the market?
I guess it's the will to attempt it and the inherent financial risks involved.
Am i right in thinking sram started with only the shim compatible twist shifts?
SRAM started by buying a company that made drivetrains.
I always thought that their very first product was the shifter? Do you mean they bought the company that were designing/making those?
It's R&D as well, Shimano has decades of investment and design experience , any UK manufacturer has to start from scratch and iterate from the market current position.
SRAM began with a road/TT shifter in '88/9, IIRC.
Nah you just copy and deviate enough to get round the patent
Ah, so it was a grip shift for road bikes! Never ever knew that. Then they went on from there...
6 guys at the start, quite a story that.
would a british made gearbox do?
plus i dont get the whole hang up on domestically made.
It’s R&D as well, Shimano has decades of investment and design experience , any UK manufacturer has to start from scratch and iterate from the market current position.
Not to mention patents to overcome.
And as soon as a british company get's onto something truly groundbreaking they'll sell out to the highest bidder.
And as soon as a british company get’s onto something truly groundbreaking they’ll sell out to the highest bidder.
That is so true in pretty much any sector. 🙁
Going back to the other post, what gear box is uk designed/made? I'm unaware of one?
Oops, I was wrong. Sorry.
They did buy in a lot of tech from Fichte and Sachs.
plus i dont get the whole hang up on domestically made
Manufacturing is good. It helps the economy and provides jobs. The UK needs to make more actual stuff to sell rather than sell banking and services to each other IMO.
Manufacturing might change.
Rapid prototyping, 3D printing - stuff like this.
And: small companies are able to buy extremely powerful software tools for engineering/development...
Niche market, especially for hobby / sports products: yes - it's possible.
The products have to target a customer group which is willing to pay for a certain performance/specification more money.
"re-inventing the wheel" doesn't make sense so. The product has to be smarter.
Why not?
Some good assertions there.
We live in interesting times, technology can allow a small company to punch above their weight if they get it right.
Manufacturing is great, but a a British manufacturer will have to compete with the massive scale and cheap labour from the far east.
We're a bit late to the party for mass production. And possibly more importantly we don't have cheap local raw materials, they have to be imported.
Yes we have high quality home grown brands, but they can only compete at the high end of the market, as they simply don't have the means to pump out millions of low /mid range components, which is where most profits are made.
If I had the manufacturing capability, know how and investment why would I limit myself to a fickle, limited and low margin industry like bikes when I could make more money making build-to-print parts like motorsports and aerospace.
It's a bit like a Conservative MPs comments a few months ago, we could sell tea and jam,...
What the tea we import from China and the fruit we import from southern Europe? OK.
Don't ask where the sugar comes from.
Really? Ot I know but what MP said that?😳
If I had the manufacturing capability, know how and investment why would I limit myself to a fickle, limited and low margin industry like bikes when I could make more money making build-to-print parts like motorsports and aerospace.
BOOOOOM someone who actually got it
^^ Christ, you couldn't make it up.
Anyway, I'll leave that subject at that as the bike forum is an escape from such things. 😀
And as soon as a british company get’s onto something truly groundbreaking they’ll sell out to the highest bidder.
not always - its usually the govt either allowing rapacious takeover or straight selling themselves to make a quick book, AMD and Qinetiq case examples (both despite employee protests that fell on deaf ears)
But on the other hand if we can find a way to fuel innovation and retain rights when the manufacturing leaves the UK (which it will do when a successful product needs volume, a small high wages nation can't beat Taiwan) then we reinvest that gained value back. volume manufacturing no, high value tech development yes.
there are lots of other things this country does well, like music and fashion and visual arts and design - and yes service industries, and food and education and medicine and bikes
I have to admit I would like for Brexit to somehow kickstart British manufacturing as a real thing again, but I don't really believe that will happen.
We've become a nation that does R&D, some high Quality/low volume manufacturing, finance, services and not enough house building... Oh and we make cars (for now)...
While I'm sure a market exists for a British made mech, I reckon it's tiny and not profitable enough to be worth investing in.
don't care
Manufacturing a stem in UK is possible as many steps can be automated, little assembly required, few parts. Not too many setups or operations. It's still more expensive but within a region that people will pay.
A rear mech has a lot of different components requiring lots of different machines preferably dedicated to production of some of the components exclusively and requires extensive hand assembly. This bumps up the price much more so.
Items which require extensive hand assembly require a high price tag to cover this. I.e. specialiist, usually customised, high value high tech items. Or something artisan. A rear mech doesn't fall into theseies catagory so becomes expensive to manufacture in the UK. This is not the type of manufacturing we want in the UK as for it to be worth while would require a collapse in UK wages.
like for Brexit to somehow kickstart British manufacturing as a real thing again
Why? Instinctively I tend to agree with you and try to "buy British" where possible. But we've become a pretty rich country without a lot of high volume manufacturing (although we manufacture more than most people think). Then I read comments like those from @TheBrick above and think that's true too. The only way we'll get high volume manufacturing in Britain is if the cost of imports rockets or our wages collapse. Either way we're worse off than we are now. But I'm no economist.
I wouldn't buy a groupset "because" it was British TBH. For me, It would have to be as good preforming as Shimano and as widely available and as universal fitting and as competitively priced.
and once those are taken into account, would there be any point?
there are lots of other things this country does well, like music and fashion and visual arts and design – and yes service industries, and food and education and medicine and bikes
Most of those ARE service industries ...
This is not the type of manufacturing we want in the UK as for it to be worth while would require a collapse in UK wages.
But then who is going to buy our products or services.... other than ourselves? Who is actually buying?
Why? Instinctively I tend to agree with you and try to “buy British” where possible. But we’ve become a pretty rich country without a lot of high volume manufacturing (although we manufacture more than most people think).
I don't know how you are defining being a rich country but just asserting it doesn't make it so...
We didn't make a profit as a country since 1989 .. every month since then our glance of trade has been negative and we have been digging into the "savings" or living off credit.
What we are is a developed country... hence why we can still do design .. we have roads and rail etc.
We have managed to keep selling services but on what basis? When services are not location tied why would anyone pay British rates vs doing the service in India or China ad indeed hat is to stop cheaper locations just copying our services?
This works to some extent for very small countries like Monaco because they offer bespoke services to a small elite but then there are not so many of them to support as the UK.
I think the point is that more of your money goes into the pocket of people in the UK who are more likely to buy whatever goods or services you produce making you richer than you would be if some of that wealth was "lost" overseas. But that's a very simplistic view of economics. Doesn't mean it's wrong (the simple logic often turns out to be right in the long run) but I dare say it's more complicated than that.
Thanks for the insights guys.
To answer my own question, yes, we could build a group set but it is likely to be hugely uneconomical to do so.
I learnt a few inferring facts along the way about SRAM etc so it's all good.
Best end it there as i can't cope with a Brexit thread in the cycling forum too.
This is my "holiday" from s*** forum. 😃
THE END
To answer my own question, yes, we could build a group set but it is likely to be hugely uneconomical to do so.
And based on the responses in this thread most people wouldn't buy it anyway (especially not at a higher cost than equivalent SRAM, Shimano) making it even more of a non starter. Royce hub anyone...
Someone on this thread has already designed and made a gearbox in the UK but as said, it doesn't make business sense.
I think the only people who could make it work are hope but that's purely based on their branding. Any independent company is better focusing it's talents elsewhere.
After attempting to swap a clutch housing from an XT to SLX mech to find Shimano have purposely put a different angled lug to prevent cross compatibility, the housing itself is exactly the same shape, ****s I thought to myself!
It's not just a Shimano thing, car parts, tech/software businesses and electronics manufactures being some of the worst offenders. The snideness certainly stops any hair brained brand loyalty crossing my mind.
After attempting to swap a clutch housing from an XT to SLX mech to find Shimano have purposely put a different angled lug to prevent cross compatibility, the housing itself is exactly the same shape, **** I thought to myself!
There'll be a reason. Probably whatever the SLX mech has is cheaper, either the lug is in a different place because it means the part it's on is stamped from a sheet of steel, or it makes it quicker to manufacture thus making it cheaper.
If it's quicker to assemble then in all likelihood the next generation of XT will then get that trickled up, which then leaves more money in the budget to save weight elsewhere, an extra pass on the CNC machine, and aluminium bolt, etc.
Seeing as they don't sell spate clutches I doubt it ever entered the brief to deliberately make them incompatible.
You reckon, I don't.
It's to differentiate, it's intentional and designed to be so.
it’s intentional and designed to be so
Exactly. Nothing happens by accident, everything happens according to The Plans. I don't have all the details of The Plans yet, but sometimes The Voices whisper a few fragments while I sleep.