[Closed] Why so many new bikes with SRAM?

Much easier to work with for product managers.

One supplier for brakes, gears, shocks, seatpost.

28 day lead times on product.

Flexibility on pricing for numbers.

Shimano not very flexible.

Early release of product specs and prices.

Shimano like to play cards close to chest till the 11th hour.

Makes specing difficult.

I'd still rather spend more for a Shimano set up though

I really like XX1. Granted I have never had a full XTR set up, but it's miiiiiles better than XT (and it should be for the price)

Brant seems to have answered this one.

I would choose Shimano over SRAM. Gaaar.

Oh, and I imagine 12 speed will be a must for many buying a new bike so that narrows your options.

Are we basing this on fact or theory?

I was told it was a bit more underhanded than that, but I think really is theory:

SRAM (who of course own Rockshox) can offer frame makers a full kit, everything bar the frame they can offer - so they do and by selling build kits they can help dodge import duty or some of it at least - frames arrive in EU from the Far East, Built Kit arrives from Far East both classified as parts which has lower import duty than bikes - final assembly in the EU.

Add to that things like Boost and ‘Metric’ shocks which is you were a suspicious types might make you think that once a frame makers goes with Sram it’s very hard to offer a Fox / Shimano option because they don’t fit, well, not for a year anyway until they catch up, at that point they’ve got a new great innovation.

I believe that Fox and Shimano have been working on a partnership to try to cover all the bases and work on sub-brands like Marzocchi but so far Shimano’s ‘Pro’ sub brand hasn’t really taken off and Shimano wheels aren’t very popular which hurts them now wheels are suddenly the hot thing in MTBs after years of most riders not giving much of a monkey’s about them as long as they were round.

The Bird configuration tool is quite telling - it’s a nice thing to play with, start basic add the stuff you care about, ignore the thorns you don’t etc - you should see the leap in cost for specifying Fox stuff, despite it in theory only having a marginal difference in RRP. Simply put, for whatever reason Sram stuff is a lot cheaper to bike makers.

Had bikes with XX1, XX1 Eagle and current XTR.  XTR is so far behind the curve.

Whilst it’s not directly comparable, the new Shimano gears on my racer are a bit vague and not that positive. The dodgy old Sram X9 derailleur that has been smashed about in a crash which is paired with a 10 speed GX shifter still have nice positive shifts. The GX 11 speed on my Aeris is the nicest gear shifting I’ve ever had on any bike. I haven’t even tried Eagle but it gets rave reviews.

Then on the Shimano 11 speed you get that horrible clunky looking 11-46 cassette that is really ugly with a bit of a gap in ratios.

Sram hands down beats Shimano for me so far.

For consumers I think SRAM have stollen a march on Shimano with XD freehubs and 12s. Shimano seem to have belligerently tried to tell the consumers that they still want 2x (and even 3x) and backwards compatible freehubs, when consumers have been embracing new stuff and ignoring then.

I'm a bit of a Luddite now and wouldn't hold 10s or 2x against a bike (I'd rather have 10s and a top of the range fork than 12s and a Yari/Reba). But I'm in a minority, trying to sell 11s Shimano vs 12s SRAM must be difficult when the SRAM is often lighter as well.

And I read somewhere (discussion about YT and their e13 cassettes and cranks with shimano shifters/mechs I think) that SRAM's build kits are a bit all or nothing, if you want a good price you have to buy everything from SRAM which probably makes it hard to make a  cheaper build kit if you want a rockshox fork.

It'll take something big from shimano to change that from a consumer perspective, they'll need to copy SRAMS one piece 12s cassette to shed some weight and gain range.

That's all opinion though, my bikes a single speed!

I was told it was a bit more underhanded than that, but I think really is theory

I think its a lot more underhand than that ;the big 5 are not negotiating per model but with millions of units from road to DH.

Buy 100,000 top end road group sets then 500 000 mid road then 1,000,000 lower end road plus same on mtb ... a few forks (for sram) etc and the negotiations are huge and across the entire product line.  Exactly what goes on your Giant/trek etc. MTB is part of a deal on commuter bikes and road bikes.

I agree with Steve.  I think it’s a dirty business all round - like a lot of trade.

" still think XT / XTR performs better than GX / X0 / XX1 or whatever the progression is these days."

That's your opinion, many disagree. It's down to business pure and simple. It's not dirty, it's not clean, not underhand, or overhand, just business. Shimano has absolutely no right to the business or a slice of the industry or even a god given right to succeed, if it wants its kit on more new bikes then it needs to do something to make that happen. Giving volume discounts across product ranges is not underhand or something SRAM has invented. it's pretty common practice across most industries and benefits everyone in the supply chain. If you're an end consumer and don't like it then you spend your money elsewhere or build your bike up from parts you want. If you want convenience and cost effectiveness you have it at the expense of choice. Like Henry Ford said "you can have any colour you want as long as it's black".

Theres a lot of conspiracy theories but in practice little of it exists.

Stuff from most manufacturers costs about the same given its end value. SRAM gearing tends to be a bit more than Shimano, Fox suspension a little more than RockShox... it pretty much follows RRP in most ways. The big difference is SRAM is way more flexible and reliable than... well anyone.

I order SRAM stuff today, its ready in one month. I ordered a load of Shimano stuff 25 days ago. I still don't actually know when they will be ready, and when I do know that, it will still probably be a couple of months out.

The reason our (Bird) SRAM stuff is cheaper than Fox is because we source Fox locally in the UK via their Small OE program, rather than direct from the factory which adds a cost. I would source a couple of main lines direct from the factory to reduce the cost to the consumer, but trying to get that up and running has only taken 4 months of trying so far, and I don't think I am any closer. The other issue is lead times. I could reduce my costs with Fox through the use of more forward orders, but as we're somewhat out of the loop on whats going on (unlike SRAM where I know probably as much as almost anyone except SRAMs own employees) and Fox has a longer lead time than say SRAM, then we risk buying dead stock. When 2019 products get launched just as the season gets going unless you know about that product at least by the end of the year previous you're dead in the water if you're a bulk buyer. Companies need to keep you in the loop for you to risk buying in bulk. SRAM are really good at that.

In terms of whether build kits from single sources are cheaper thats not true either, other than bringing in parts separate from frames is cheaper, but as long as you're not sourcing from China then you could bring in complete build kits bikes without frames in one shipment, and frames on another, or ship every little part individually and you'll still pay the same duty.

Obviously bulk buying has advantages in terms of pricing, committing to 100,000 rear mechs is going to get you a better price than 10, but generally its about how much you spend that dictates your pricing, not so much about what you spend it on. The only exception to that rule is Eagle, which is all or nothing. But thats kind of fair when you think its only 4 parts you have to commit to buying in a bundle and they do kind of need to work together.

Bike manufacturers don't make their money on frames.

They - indirectly - make the money on SRAM, Shimano, Formula ... parts. Key are the discounts they get from those companies. Compared to the RRP "we see" - those discounts are in the range of 70% ... 80% or more?

SRAM: has the better deal to offer right now...? At least for bikes in the price range "above 1k"?

I agree Shimano have lagged behind in the cassette department, and this explains why I have XTR drivetrain with a SRAM cassette - although of course since then SRAM Eagle 10X50 has moved on another step. If it's all about business and markups (which is probably is), Shimano on the face of it looks more cost-effective - eg XT full hydraulic groupset is about £450 whereas SRAM group sets WITHOUT disc brakes are coming in at nearly double the cost, and that's not XX1.

I think others have it with the combination of SRAM and Rockshox, making a compelling offering for manufacturers, and with presumably huge discounts on retail price.

I think Ben is better placed than most to offer an insight as to why manufacturers are choosing SRAM/Rockshox over Shimano/Fox, and has done so. Personally, I love the clunky industrial positive feel of SRAM kit, and they really stole a March with the whole XD-driver/11sp/narrow-wide 1x drive-in thing. I don't think I'll ever go back to Shimano tbh.

Im happy enough with the SRAM bits on my new bike.

But damn I miss that 2-way shift on the 10 speed Shimano on my winter bike !

Other than that don't have much input

Ben & Brant obvs no more

I think it,s down to 11 speed SRAM being better than 11 speed Shimano and 12 speed SRAM being miles better still . Bike manufacturers must realise that spec ing a bike with 12 speed Eagle will make it more saleable than if they spec it with 11 speed Shimano .

From my unknowing position, SRAM offers a complete range of finishing kit, and may sell for less than Shimano to bike companies.

The biggest drawback is the cost to the punter to replace like for like...painful (and yet we pay it)...

The biggest drawback is the cost to the punter to replace like for like…

From my (very long ago) dealing with SRAM and shimano i have the feeling that while both make signifcant profits on initial sale of build kits to manufacturers, SRAM have geared their model up to make *even more* on spares, repairs and replacements.

painful (and yet we pay it)…

No, i don't, i've, in the past, removed and sold brand new SRAM groupsets to replace with shimano, as in my opinion shimano simply works better, tends to last longer and isn't so eye watering for replacement..

I haven't bought a SRAM bike for a few years, as their insistence on 1x puts me off straight away, so don't know if its still as bad as it was on cost, given my consumption of parts, but i have ridden a few. Personally would still take XT over anything they offer.

On Sram bits I haven’t noticed them being outrageously expensive when replacing stuff like shifters and derailleurs - but then I tend to buy GX level stuff which is pretty reasonable.

I think cassettes maybe where they sting you - but is anyone else better better value cassettes that fit on an xd driver with the 10t cog?

I don't have the numbers but I'm pretty sure Altus and Acera outsell Eagle/GX etc by a factor of at least 100:1.

Theres a lot of conspiracy theories but in practice little of it exists.

For me, not so much about “conspiracy”, more that a lot of large businesses and associated large transactions can leave something to be desired.  The approaches of some vendors when they want multi-million pound contracts has left me jaded...

Ben, your size and I imagine, strong ethics would mean this doesn’t apply to you.  Your transparency above in terms of the way you can work with suppliers is very admirable.

I would also be glad to find that this kind of business practice doesn’t exist at any level in the industry.

That explains why I cant find the SRAM bits I want to upgrade my drive train.

One thing I would say about SRAM is they don't seem to have a good QA system. Bought a few things that were iffy especially RockShox straight out of the box.

Generally find SRAM a bit agricultural compared to Shimano but having said that the next upgrade will be SRAM - if I can find it.

The lbs mechanic insists Sram is ‘angry shifting’ and Shimano is his preference as it’s smoother. I disagreed - I think Sram is nice and positive but Shimano is a little vague.

Everyone has their preference and opinion and so it’s good there is a choice!

I did used to think SRAM was overpriced junk, sold more on novelty and getting "features" to market first at the expense of QC.

But I think they've improved in recent years, the other thing they've started doing is put more thought into products for mid to low range both OEM an after market, Setting aside the Eagle groups, NX is a pretty competitive product and seems to be displacing 2x10 Deore on a few complete bikes now. Say what you want about 1x if your a manufacturer assembling several thousand bikes, no longer needing to cable up a front mech on each build is a considerable man-hours saving, plus the spec sheet saying "1x11" is probably a bit more desirable for the average punter now...

And recently putting together my daughters next bike, going on the cost of basic drivertrain parts, 8 speed SRAM SX3 or SX4 came in about 50% less than similar (altus/alivio) shimano parts, my missus bike is similarly specced with "low end" SRAM and for her needs it's more than adequate... Set against tourney or altus they're more than on par IMO.

Shimano are not selling bad products, but I think SRAM have been building up a competitive edge over the last few years, covering most of the same price points, along with the USP of that "one stop shop" offering. Yes you can go to multiple suppliers but a single source for everything bar the frame probably makes the logistics of assembling bikes much easier...

I think basically, SRAM learned a valuable lesson after years of losing out on OEM. I mean, essentially the only reason 15mm axles are still a thing is OE buyer power- Fox and Shimano did some smart work together for that while Rockshox foolishly promoted 20mm on merit.

But also, they've finally got decent brakes, the forks as ever are excellent across the board but have some real top end too, the dropped seatpost is pretty much the industry standard, and the drivetrains are really excellent. And Shimano have frankly lost the plot on 1x- they've even actively made their cranks less good- their brakes are mostly alright, and their dropper post is a token effort.

So it's a combination of hard work from SRAM, and fail from Shimano I reckon.

@joebristol I agree with your mechanic, and I much prefer SRAM because of it. I also see your point about Shimano being a bit vague, which is why I’m slightly disappointed that my new bike is coming with 10spd XT. I would upgrade to 11 speed SRAM but the cost of the XD Drive cassettes puts me off somewhat!

It's sort of interesting to remember how SRAM got here, essentially starting off with a single product (gripshift) and winning a court case for anti-competitive practises against shimano, who at the time wouldn't supply OEM customers if they didn't buy the whole groupset (including shifters)...

 but the cost of the XD Drive cassettes puts me off somewhat!

What is the cost? My last one wasn't much different from a normal freehub

the spec sheet saying “1×11” is probably a bit more desirable for the average punter now

Quite the opposite. The "average punter" still wants a full selection of gears and believes the more the better. Try not to only see things from within the STW/enthusiast bubble.

SRAM appear to have got here by product acquisition and then making sure it all works together...

Quite the opposite. The “average punter” still wants a

Average cyclist, mountain biker, rider, buyer of enduro bikes? Define your parameters before claiming to know what they want.

If I'm looking at 1x then I'm looking for sram, if I'm looking for a serious mountain bike then I'm looking for a good range 1x solution.

I predict a full Fox/Raceface product offering within 2/3 years.......

Disagree scotroutes beginners want simplicity , no front shifting is simpler and it is the gear change that even experienced cyclists can mess up by not being prepared to back off the power . No chain suck , less clogging with mud , no dropping the chain , ability to use all the gears not have duplicated ratios . Try explaining a 3x8 gear set up to a beginner., I do just that most of my working days and it's incredibly confusing " you've got 8 gears on the back operated by these 2 levers and 3 on the front operated by these 2 levers but try not to run the big front ring with the big rear ring or the small front ring with the small rear sprocket " etc etc .1x is A good trade off for possibly losing a gear , or possibly not even that with SRAM 12 speed plus the added simplicity and performance .

I just can’t stand SRAM shifters, which pretty much means it’s Shimano all the way for me.

Fuuuuck according to this thread I'm no longer a serious mountain biker.

All bollox, it’s because it works.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "average punter" but being more agnostic about things, it's still fair to say that even while 2x and 3x are perfectly good solutions many will be nudged towards the idea of 1x it is a popular option these days. It's simpler, suits many peoples riding, many of the mags do push the concept. and TBH SRAM are a bit "better" at it currently...

I can see Sunrace trying to get further into the OEM act soon though, they're pitching straight in with a 1x12 mech/shifter, I'm sure they'll follow up with some 1x11/10 to try and nab a bigger share, especially with shimano snoozing... I'd love to see campag have another crack at the MTB Market but I don't think they will.

The thing to note is its took SRAM a good 20 or so years or so of acquisitions, growth and carving out their market position(s) just to get to this point where they can dominate (during which time shimano carried on pretty much as normal), but I think given that early win against shimano they're quite unlikely to act in an uncompetitive way and force OEMs to only equip their bikes with SRAM group products, its a more 'carrot' than 'stick' approach... You've always got a choice, but SRAM have a much longer term strategy...

I like SRAM. I've run XT for years and decided in the last two or three to use my XT shifter in push push, allowing me to keep my index finger on the brake lever. My current bike came with GX 11. I've taken no time to adjust. Feels just as good as XT.

Can still downshift three gears from a single push. Don't need to upshift more than one. No issues.

I kinda wanted to try SRAM so happy bike came that way.

Obviously bulk buying has advantages in terms of pricing, committing to 100,000 rear mechs is going to get you a better price than 10, but generally its about how much you spend that dictates your pricing, not so much about what you spend it on.

and

For me, not so much about “conspiracy”, more that a lot of large businesses and associated large transactions can leave something to be desired.  The approaches of some vendors when they want multi-million pound contracts has left me jaded…

Ben, your size and I imagine, strong ethics would mean this doesn’t apply to you.  Your transparency above in terms of the way you can work with suppliers is very admirable.

and

Quite the opposite. The “average punter” still wants a full selection of gears and believes the more the better. Try not to only see things from within the STW/enthusiast bubble.

Self evidently the average punter walking into a bike shop for a "mountain bike" still wants 3x8 over 1xsomething.

The average "mountain bike" sold costs less than a half decent crankset... or pair of really good brakes.

"Self evidently the average punter walking into a bike shop for a “mountain bike” still wants 3×8 over 1xsomething."

Not sure that's self evident tbh. The cheapest bikes have multi front gears, so everyone that wants a cheap bike gets that. It's not til you get up to the "hobby grade" that you start seeing 1x with NX, and they seem to be pretty succesful

I think you just have to basically separate out actual mountain bikers from "people who buy a mountain bike" because there's not really much correlation. Most people buying a cheap bike would be better on a rigid hybrid.

People understand 1x gearing - it’s like in their car. 2x and 3x is a nightmare to explain to non-technically minded beginners!

People understand 1x gearing – it’s like in their car. 2x and 3x is a nightmare to explain to non-technically minded beginners!

Yep ... but that doesn't stop them equating number of gears with value....

I agree with Northwind ... most of these people would be better on a HT hybrid but they also see cheapass coil forks as a "value" ...

It’s not til you get up to the “hobby grade” that you start seeing 1x with NX, and they seem to be pretty succesful

Yep but I think the Shimano answer in the new Deore is pretty good.

The same old question though is do they need 11 speed over 10 speed?  (11-36)

ie. its kind going in circles....and at hobbyist level perhaps even SLX or a 40T ??? (but everything is cheaper on 10 speed... even chains, links etc.)  Personally I'd rather a better fork than an extra gear... but again I think the "gears = value" does translate better than "this model has a charger damper vs ..."

"People understand 1x gearing – it’s like in their car. 2x and 3x is a nightmare to explain to non-technically minded beginners!"

Yup but that's 2 different things- when I loan a bike to my brother I'm so glad for 1x because 2x or god forbid 3x confused the hell out of him. In use, it's great for novices. But it mostly makes it less good for the sort of riding that cheap bikes tend to actually do, entry level bikes actually benefit from a bigger range of gears than a dedicated mtb (and none of them come with a 500% single ring)

And yep 18 or 21 or 30 is more than 12 and more is good. I think some folks would sneer at that but even with mtb enthusiasts 1x is poorly understood and Shimano have sold huge amounts of expensive gearsets by adding "one more" without really adding any functionality (so have SRAM, till 11 speed)

Interesting anecdotal evidence in this thread that people who try the new sram 11/12 actually seem to like it! Many people who haven't tried it don't like it 😉

In use, it’s great for novices. But it mostly makes it less good for the sort of riding that cheap bikes tend to actually do, entry level bikes actually benefit from a bigger range of gears than a dedicated mtb (and none of them come with a 500% single ring)

therein lies the problem - at this level the range of gears must suit every customer, not just each one individually. The idea of buying a chainring to suit your riding conditions would be so far beyond this consumer group it would be like asking them to pull the engine out of their car.

One person wants a granny ring to go slowly up country hillsides to a viewpoint, one buys a cheap mtb as a comfy road going vehicle, and one is using it for generic fitness/ exercise from road to trailcentre and everything in between. And a surprising number get into 44:11 at every possible opportunity and gurn along at 12rpm in the mistaken belief it is faster.

i recently bought a new bike that had the option of either xt or eagle (nukeproof) i went eagle, why wouldn't you?

Me too , Trek fuel EX8 . Plenty of XT bikes left but not many Eagle .

On the other hand I recently built a new transition scout from frame only so I could avoid sram, always thought it feels and looks cheap and nasty.

It cost me a little bit more than the off the shelf model but I feel like I’ve got a much better spec for the money.

On the other hand I recently built a new transition scout from frame only so I could avoid sram, always thought it feels and looks cheap and nasty.

What was the last one you tried?

10 speed XO I think, to be fair I’ve never owned a sram groupset and only used them on other people’s bikes.

lol you should try one, might save you some cash 😉

Nah I’m happy with xt.

No worries, file you under the never tried sram 11/12 😉

I had a play with it in a shop but didn’t like it, not had the chance to ride a bike with it though.

and to be fair I know playing with it in a shop isn’t the same as using it but I just don’t like sram. Shimano has always worked well for me, sram could well be better but I’m happy.

"therein lies the problem – at this level the range of gears must suit every customer, not just each one individually. The idea of buying a chainring to suit your riding conditions would be so far beyond this consumer group it would be like asking them to pull the engine out of their car."

Or, more precisely, most cheap mtbs can't just be mtbs, they have to also be hybrids. It'd be the same at all levels if people bought £10000 Santa Cruzes to ride to work and to ride offroad but enthusiast spec stuff generally "only" has to be a great mtb and not also a great shopper.

I've gone from 10 speed XT to eagle GX this year. No problems so far but I think the XT levers had better ergonimics. I mis two way release and find that the donwshift lever is in the wrong place. I know eagle XO1 has an adjustable lver but it is a £95 option.

I'm thinking of going GX gripshift as that is a far cheaper experiment.

GX grip was great for me, went there to get over hand injury but stuck with it until I got a new bike with triggers and worked out it was much better 🙂 Hacksaw and your existing grips make things match

I've ridden Shimano drivetrains for nearly 30 years and up until 10speed MTB wouldn't even think of using Sram but disappointing 11spd XT isn't a patch on 10spdXT.

For new school Gravel/adventure 1x bikes Shimano are not even on the same planet as Sram, this coupled with a lack of complete build kits and I think Shimano are in serious trouble with their heads in the sand about it. Hope to be proved otherwise.

Aye, Shimano 10 speed was mint- the Saint shifter really set the standard tbh and the shifting nicked everything that was good about SRAM 9 speed and kept Shimano build quality. Meanwhile for 11 speed XT they've nicked SRAM's crappy 9 speed build quality and added weight to balance it out.

I've gone from Shimano (exage!) to SRAM (X9) to Shimano again (sainty-XT-mixy) as being "the best" but GX eagle is just bloody awesome.