I commute to work on a Canondale Badboy 8 Ultra with an 8 speed alfine. Its all works well and was bought new by me for low maintenance. My commute is pretty much 4 miles of uphill road. I occasionally ride my nomad to work so I can go a long way home and I can never get my head around the fact that its quicker and much easier. The bad boy weighs a tonne and alfines are notoriously draggy but I would of thought this would be offset by the 25c tyres. The nomad is light (for what it is) and has a 2.35 magic mary on the front and 2.35 hans dampf on the back. My Chameleion with the same tyres as the nomad is also faster and so is my anthem.
Roughly the bad boy takes me 19 mins of hard work. The nomad 16 mins of easy spinning and this isn't a one off.
Any ideas? I can only think its the gearing as its a compromise between struggling uphills and running out of gears on the flat.
What colour is the Nomad? Is it red?
Position/fit?
A modern long/low enduro bike could even be more aero than a sit up and beg commuter?
If not then it's the colour, or drag (do the brakes drag on the commuter)?
If it was red then i wouldn't of needed to ask.
Its black and i'm not sure where black sits on the colour to speed ratio chart.
Apparently 12% drain on an alfine. Most likely that causing it in conjunction with the weight difference.
If you are riding uphill then you are at lower speeds where tyre drag isn't as much of an issue as on flat, the weight needs extra wattage to climb which is significant, in conjunction with an alfine it's obviously added up to less efficient than your other bike for climbing.
What tyres are you running on the bad boy? I fitted some schwalbe marathon super puncture proof doofahs and they were absoloutely terrible and slowed the bike down, I got rid after one ride and back on part worn knobblies for the commute.
The brakes definitely don't drag.
Another possibility is the wheels. They are ridiculously heavy. Mainly due to the alfine. They are DT Rims but not sure which ones.
The tyres are Schwalbe Durano I think. I think they are the heavy duty commuter version.
Sounds like something is seriously amiss with your bad boy set-up - why does it weigh a ton, is it just down to the alfine? The bad boys I've tried have been light and stiff - the type of bike that you'd rocket into work on. Yet your FS shod with boat-anchors is faster (?!)
Is the hill very substantial? Maybe there's some difference in fit that is manifesting itself on the climb.
Agree with Garry, something is very wrong.
Should be miles faster than a FS with MM/HD combo.
I've got an Alfine based commuter (mine is a Roadrat) and while it's miles slower than my proper road bikes it's still a bit faster on road than even the lightest of my mountain bikes - which is probably 10lbs lighter than it - despite the Alfine being a bit of a compromise (in my case it's towards having lower gears available so spins out not much over 20mph). I'd have expected your Bad Boy to be faster than a mountain bike or at the very least not be any slower.
Change the tyres and report back.
There is definitely nothing wrong with the bike from a mechanical point of view. The weight and spec is the same as it was when it came from the factory. The only change I have made is adding mudguards. It's never been an enjoyable bike to ride but for commuting all year in all weathers it's been perfect. I have always said I wouldn't want to ride it further than 5 miles.
It's fast downhills. I can easily hit 35mph just rolling downhill on the way home.
The hill isn't steep. Just long and gradual over about 4 miles.
Not sure whats going on there, I also have an Ultra 8 set up as a commuter. I run 28's rather than 25's, but its no slouch. I'd say (as above) its faster than my mtb's, but not as quick as a lighter weight road bike.
Badboys are surprisingly heavy, or at least the older one I have to pick up occasionally is. I'd still have thought it would comfortably be faster than an MTB though.
I'd just like to disagree with respect to the tyres, especially if you're running MM/HD tubeless.
I'd be very surprised if they weren't lower drag than a lot of commuting tyres, especially narrow commuting tyres, and very especially if the commuting tyres aren't rock hard*.
The alfine (I assume running a manky chain) might have a bit of extra drag compared to a nicely maintained derailleur setup (I felt like I could feel the difference when I changed chain and sprockets on my fixed wheel I used to commute on).
(*definition depends on your weight, but probably 100-120psi)
Other explanations are different weather/wind?
Maybe its all psychological and the urge to shred up the gnarl means you are sending it the whole way to work on the Nomad, pulling down phat air, grabbing melons and #loaming it to the max etc.
The badboy is noticeably heavier than the nomad. It really is like a tank especially the rear with the alfine. The nomad is a light (but strong) build though for what i use it for. I usually blow the badboy tyres up to around 100psi and re-inflate when i notice any drop.
The nomad is tubeless and normally has about 10-13 psi in the front and about 20 at the back but this is only based on my joeblow guage. The chain is at the moment kept very clean as i just bought a new blinging gold one.
A lot of it could be psychological. I ride the bad boy out of necessity rather than fun. Its a boring bike and not in the slightest bit inspiring. But as I said its perfect for low maintenance all weather commuting.
Fit some lightweight, supple 35c+ tyres at 40PSI tubeless and report back.
Narrow, hard tyres "feel" faster, but really aren't. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/wide-and-fast-tires/
Have a poke around http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/ some commute tyres have greater resistance than mtb tyres.... especially if they are heavy and inflexible.
And bin the alfine.
I do recall my Alfine equipped Saracen Pylon8 (which I installed a Recon Race fork on) being a much harder workout coming home up the hill, compared to my Tricross Singlecross or my F5C. It weighed a ton, flew down the hill towards work and being able to shift gears while stationary was very handy at the many traffic lights.
The weighty 26x2"+ tyres I used probably did not help (Landcruisers; Crazy Bobs; Big Apples; Super Moto; IIRC).
Despite its flaws, I was gutted to discover a rather terminal seat tube crack that was over half way around the seat tube, just below the top tube join (perhaps the result of different frame stresses from adding the suspension forks). 👿
http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews/schwalbe-durano-2015
Those do seem quite draggy for 5mm tyres
But still seems odd
Apparently 12% drain on an alfine
Sauce?
Interesting thread. I find it hard to believe any tyres are slower than MTB specific on tarmac (I have Hans Dampfs). Surely the gearing on both bikes would allow similar cadence / resistance etc ? ie it cannot be too high gearing
I reckon my Bad Boy fitted with 28c rubino pros is around 1, possibly 2mph, faster than my 26" maxlight xc running a knobby nic and rocket ron.
Both weigh around 25lb, Im guessing yours is close to 30.
[url= http://proceedings.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1859235 ]This[/url] reckons the Alfine's efficiency ranges from 90.4% to 96.6% (I only have access to the abstract). I guess thats going from direct drive to the grindiest of the grindy (which I reckon is 4, which I like to call 'the coffee grinder 😉 )
Interesting what it says about Rohloff Speedhubs. Very efficient!
Have you ever serviced the alfine? I don't believe 12% drag in any case but a freshly serviced one runs noticeably smoother and quicker.
Servicing is quick and easy - take cluster out, dip in ATF, let it drain, reassemble
Duranos are shat tyres but they will still be 5-10W less rolling resistance per tyre than a Nobby Nic or similar (is Magic Mary more gnarr than Nobby Nic?), its not the tyres
over 25km my Alfine Pompino commute record = 48
My PX london road = 46
00's XC race machine = 52
Alfine hardtail = 58
I'm a big fan of Conti GP 4 Seasons in 700x28 for year-round commuter duties. Very rare that I need to break out the spare tube and levers and the tyres last well. Sheffield is broken glass city. There are a few surface nicks in the tyres but nothing deep enough to cause a tube bubble and pop problem. I tend to run 60ish in the front and 80ish in the back, sometimes a bit more depending how i feel / if planning a big bag of shopping. These are running in a 5800 series modern alu CX bike. Without putting a couple of weeks of riding the same route focussing on improvements my CX is a faster commuter than any MTB I've used on the same route.
Same goes for previous commuter builds with 3500 Sora and 5600 on straight wired 700/28 Conti GP's. If your mountain bikes are faster out of the box than your commuter, there's an issue with the commuter.
Have you ever serviced the alfine? I don't believe 12% drag in any case but a freshly serviced one runs noticeably smoother and quicker.Servicing is quick and easy - take cluster out, dip in ATF, let it drain, reassemble
Alfine 8 or 11?
The alfine was serviced a few weeks ago after around 6000 miles. When I opened it up it was spotless inside. The white grease was still white. It didn't feel any better or worse after a service.
The 11 is an oil bath is it not? - so thats just an oil change - Not sure tho - mine is an 8 which comes grease lubed as new. The grease hardens over time leading to drag so lubing the cluster with ATF makes it run smooth again
andy - how did you have it serviced? Oil dip or just regrease of the bearings? Doing mine with an ATF dunk plus grease on the main bearings made it run a lot smoother and faster
My understanding is 11 = oil bath, 8 = grease.
I've heard a lot of good things about dipping an 8 in ATF, but also some grumblings about it leaking out after and getting on the disc rotor. Sounds like that hasn't been a problem for you though?
*I have an Alfine 8, hence the interest! 🙂
You could be running the Badboy's tyres too hard? 100psi is a lot, I need it on my Brompton but it has tiny wheels with very short contact patches. Too high a pressure and you'll be slowed by every tiny bump rather than rolling through them.
The wheels should make little difference unless you're braking a lot - what you lose in pedalling inertia you gain in flywheel effect.
Lately I've been commuting on my MTBs with Shorty 2.5 and 2.3 3C Exo tyres. It's a tarmac climb most of the way home but they're amazingly not that bad. The tread looks like it should be impossible to pedal on road but with tubeless these modern carcasses are surprisingly efficient rollers.
sherma the alfine 8 does not have proper oil seals - you drain the cluster first so there is little excess oil but some will leak out but in my case its on the non disc side. No oil contamination on the disc.
It is really very simple to do. wheel out, cassette joint off, circlip off to remove sprocket, dust cover off, undo cup and cne style locknuts, cluster lifts out in one go. the first time I did it I used solvent to strip out all the old dried grease and then the ATF bath but most folk think this step is not needed as the oil will soften the grease
https://hubstripping.wordpress.com/
Motivation.
Thanks! 🙂
I ran a Roadrat with an Alfine 8 speed and it was very quick on flat, up and down. Much quicker than any MTB I've ridden on the road. As others have said maybe a tyre change and Alfine service is needed.
It's not the tyres on the bad boy that's the problem. Nobbly tyres only sound good at certain speeds on tarmac. You must be subconsciously riding your nomad at an acceptable audible frequency.
Lateral stiffness and Vertical compliance?