[Closed] Why does mtbing alienate women & to what extent does this hold back the sport?

'nature' v 'nurture' - mmm ... biological determinism is always tricky ground.

She said 'Biological Determinism'. 😮

(Is in awe)

(b) women have a higher level of participation in activities that have family or 'social' associations; (c) that women are more 'other' orientated than men when it comes to expressing their recreational preferences - ie they are more likely to shape their activities to what others want to do than what they want to do themselves.

This actually fits in perfectly with my own observations, I have to say. In many different cultures too. I am just curious as to how much is socially engendered behaviour, and how much is 'naturally' inherent.

Deveron53

Iam referring to the semi-naked women used as objects throughout the editorial and advertising in most MX mags. While this isn't the cause, it's certainly a signpost to something in MX that (to me) seems a bit 'off'.

Do you think this could simply be evidence that mx is at ease with itself, knows what it is, who the audience is (men), how to target them and is big enough that it doesnt need to worry about being pc in the slightest?

Personally I think sexism (intentional or unintentional) is the root of this 'issue'. See comments in this thread of examples of men being condescending or patronising when it faced with women who can ride a bike [i]as well as a man can[/i]. There is a need to qualify seeing a woman on a bike by relating their occurrence to some level of ability. This prevailing attitude will surely influence whether women take up the sport, influenced as they are by their peers.

I'd be interested to know whether Sue's research covers peer influence in determining m:f ratios in different activities.

at ease with itself..I believe the ultimate sign of this is indeed semi naked pictures of women in/on/near machinery..only the other day I was at the home of a middle aged persons house adorned with pictures of semi naked women and do you know what I thought
1.ah excellent a man at ease with himself.
2. what a sad ****er

I suspect the BS machismo of it all reduces the appeal for some women.
I suspect that even without this it is just something [ generally] women are not in to.

Junkyard - Member

only the other day I was at the home of a middle aged persons house adorned with pictures of semi naked women and do you know what I thought
1.ah excellent a man at ease with himself.
2. what a sad ****

I take it these pictures weren't Ruben's?

Sue_W - Member

TJ - based on a sample size of 1 (me!) then your assessment is correct

mboy - now is my favouritist person for being envious of my job 🙂 although the best bit is not the number crunching but the fact the survey I'm responsible for counts as 'official statistics' which means I can tell the government to pee off as they aren't allowed the data until I'm happy to release it to the public (a small but significant victory to the likes of people like me!)

Tempted to ignore Mr Elfinsafety for referring to me as 'some bird' but as he has redeemed himself by mentioning a degree of awe, then am prepared to bore him a bit more ... it is very difficult to determine what is 'inherent' and what is 'socially constructed' (and neither of which explain the likes of me or other girls who bike). It's probably more useful to therefore consider whether it is something that should be addressed? In my mind, yes. Mainly because there are significant health benefits from being physically active which are currently not bring equally gained by women.

Ask your teacher to explain 'oversimplification'.

Ahaha, a joke so funny you had to use it twice. When you are finished being a patronising throbber, you could explain what else you actually need other than a bike?

I take it these pictures weren't Ruben's

Tempted to ignore Mr Elfinsafety for referring to me as 'some bird'

😀

it is very difficult to determine what is 'inherent' and what is 'socially constructed'

Indeed, that's why there's so much academic theory surrounding this subject. And there's always the danger that your carefully thought-out theory could be rubbished by someone else. I'm wondering if there is a link to the fact that MTBing is a risky activity, which may somehow, even on a subconscious level, dissuade women from participating. Mind you, climbing is perhaps even riskier, and loads of women enjoy that.

As for the 'sweatiness' thing, that's just crap imo. Ever seen women coming out of a Yogalates or whatever class? Spinning? Some things that are popular with women are proper sweaty.

One thing I always find interesting when I go swimming, is that most women tend to stick to the 'slow' or 'medium' lanes, whereas blokes tend to gravitate towards the 'fast' lane, even if they are in fact quite slow. Many's the time I've seen women swim faster in one of the other lanes, than slow men in the fast lane. I've seen reasonably quick women swimmers move over to the medium lane if faster people are in the fast lane, but some blokes seem loathe to accept and admit they are slow, and use the appropriate lane. Is this due to testosterone? Social pressure and expectation?

Women will usually let me pass them at the end of the lane, if I am quicker than them. Some blokes can be incredibly stubborn on this matter though. Natural male competitiveness, or insecurity and an inability to be able to accept being just a teeny bit 'weaker' than another bloke?

Rubbish. All you need is a bike, everything else is peripheral.

Same with golf; all you need are clubs and balls, which can be picked up as cheap as any bike.

mboy - Member
As has been said before, Mountain Biking these days, on the whole, is a bunch of middle aged, middle class white men with fairly disposable incomes. It has, as crikey says, become the new Golf (which is quite a working mans sport these days ironically!).

And since when was Golf sexy, or interesting to women in general?

Joking aside, people who run don't bore everyone else in pubs about stories of running. People who walk hills and mountains don't bore everyone else in pubs with stories of mountains they've climbed. People who ride horses don't bore other people in pubs with stories of how high that last fence was that they cleared etc.

People who ride mountain bikes (not all of us, but quite a lot, and they're ALWAYS middle aged, middle class white men) DO bore everyone else in pubs with their stories of trails they've ridden, how extreme it was, how much air they got etc... And this is NOT cool... FFS, I saw people supporting at Mayhem (no names mentioned, but I bet a few people on here know who I'm referring to!) wearing cycling related gear to stand on the side of the track, cheer people on, and take photos. Hell, I don't particularly like the look of Lycra when I'm on the bike (but it serves a purpose), I'm sure as hell not wearing it off the bike!

Mountain Biking is seen as a geeky sport by most people, women included. And this is why lots of people (women included) don't do it. Strangely enough I know a lot of guys (and a couple of girls) who used to laugh at me for doing it cos they thought it was geeky, who have tried it recently, and have taken it up cos they love it!

But until we're generally accepted as not being geeky, bike obsessed nerds (whether we are or not), it's hard to be accepted socially. Fishing, now there's a ****ing sport I don't understand and find it highly amusing to ridicule, yet it's the most popular sport in the country! Go figure...

EDIT: Goog, do you ride in the FOD a bit? Swear last time I was there, saw a couple looking remarkably like you and your Mrs, her with a Giant DH bike, loading up a Van...

Really?? 🙄

Sounds like a load of tosh and waffle to me.

I've been biking with my older sis for 17 years. My younger sis for a bit less. Even my mum has owned Marins for the last 8 years or so. I went out last night with my missus (who's fell off in spectacular fashion but is laughing about it).

They don't buy magazines. Women rarely do for hobbies. They tend to just do it rather than read about it. Men read and discuss shit much more than they do shit.

Unfortunately I am nearly 40, work in IT and live in the country. So although I've been riding mtb's since I never had a pot to piss in (GT Timberline ftw!), I've got to give up now as I no longer fit the required demographic profile of a true biker...

Women bikers should be treated equally but this doesn't get them out of cake-baking duties beforehand.

There is just so much to say about this issue, I honestly don't know where to start. I may have to go off and write an essay....

I came back to cycling 23 years ago when I settled down and bought the first of many mountain bikes I've owned. For many years it was an absolute obsession, which drove my family mad but by two years ago I was losing interest, losing motivation and when I acquired a road bike, the finesse, greater fitness and the convenience of road riding took over as a new obsession.

Why did I lose interest in mountain biking? Well, it IS a white middle aged men's sport; I saw a couple of Asian guys and a couple of women try to join my local MTB club and the Asians in particular were not made welcome. The banter on club rides was mostly about gear, bits and "what I did" and was 100% male.

There's the mud and the constant need for washing, cleaning, fiddling and messing with the bike, the weight of the FS bikes that people went and bought rather than a sensible hard tail, the expense, the fashion, the unsightly bellies in lycra, the crude jokes and the beer at the end of every ride, the jolly machismo and competition of the whole scene. Above all I was appalled at the aggression towards other trail users, the disproportionate reaction when drivers took objection to a large pack occupying the road and the lack of consideration towards horse riders. My own private belief is that mountain biking appeals because it's a pack behaviour territory-claiming activity, in a similar way it has been suggested that golf appeals to men because it's a prey-hunting game.

For me the biggest de-motivator was trail centres; I found them boring, posey, competitive and teeming with some of the worst examples of biking machismo. I was shocked that people would buy bottles of drink from the cafe then throw the empties away in the countryside. This was not mountain biking, this was just hooligans out having a blast. I would generally ride a few miles on the trail then lose interest and head off into the woods to explore some real trails.

So it's easy to see why women don't like mountain biking really.

I've just asked my wife why she prefers road biking to mountain biking (she has decent bikes for both disciplines) and she said the reasons are:
- she expects to fall-off and hurt herself on the MTB
- it's muddy and dirty

Now this isn't from someone who's scared of the outdoors - she hillwalks (and is a trained mountain leader, used to taking kids groups out in all weather conditions), enjoys climbing and sea kayaking and did her first triathlon at the weekend. Not only that but she's also a member of a very good all-women cycling club (Hervelo) who cover all disciplines - road, CX, MTB including racing. Given the age of our kids now (15 and 19) she also has spare time available.

Saying that mountain biking alienates her is completely missing the point - if anything she's alienated herself (although I've not given up hope of getting her into mountain biking yet!), or more precisely she's picked the discipline she prefers.

She's also completely disinterested in any of the mechanical stuff (although is just about capable of fixing a puncture) and relies on me for all the bike building and maintenance.

epicsteve - you're wife's first comment is interesting. I've heard friends who mtb often say 'if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough'. For me that's part of the 'macho' side of mtb'ing that really puts me off - pain and injury doesn't appeal to me and pictures that some mtb'ers appear to love to display of their injuries only reinforces that gung-ho bravado.

Interestingly, when I road ride / scramble / climb etc no-one says 'if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough' or that injury is part of the activity (although it is helpful in climbing to practise / get used to falls so that when they happen in 'real life' you're better prepared - similarly it's good to practise capsize and rescues when kayaking)

I'm not sure if it's a 'personal to me' thing, or associated with being female, but I prefer mtb'ing that's more xc, out in the hills, doesn't need body armour / full face helmets, and is more about enjoying the lanscape than focusing on technical aspects of a trail. Unsurprisingly I'm therefore not a big fan of FC trail centres!

epicsteve - you're wife's first comment is interesting. I've heard friends who mtb often say 'if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough'.

In her case I don't think that's likely to be a factor. I don't tend to fall off much (I nearly always ride alone so tend towards caution) and the only other mountain bikers she's ever ridden with are the ladies club she's in, and they're definitely not like that.

My wife loves her mountain bike and loves mountain biking. Shes the one who dragged me out of the car to ride round the marin in a god awful storm, best ride ever even though we were a couple of drowned rats by the end. Thing is she wouldn't do the marin on her own, rotten sense of direction and totally unsure of her own abilities, she's a fine rider and it's easily within her capabilities.

this is going to sound very stereotypical and cliché but She has no, and i mean no, interest in the technical side of her bike what so ever. 4 years of riding it and shes still has no idea what does what! she can just about use granny and has never been in the big ring. Forget punctures & putting the chain back on, lock outs and travel adjust, I've just given up trying to explain, just set it up how she likes it and let her ride.

She doesn't like raised boardwalk sections at all, no matter how wide. All the new skull and crossbone warning signs at CyB really threw her confidence (on stuff she had ridden many times before).

Why it's a male dominated sport ? lots of reasons, but one I have noticed at trail centers is the wife/girlfriend palmed off with some pretty dreadful bikes while hubby minces off into the distance on his £3k steed.

Just yesterday I bought a wee hardtail for my other half. I stuck the tag-a-long on the back for our youngest and we headed off to christen it. Nothing too technical as the plan is to break her in gently. Fairly tame off-roading with a few hills thrown in. On the main she enjoyed it, but did call me a few names when a little detour turned into a narrow nettle-fest. She wasn't put off by the mud or flies or the uncomfortable saddle. Quite the opposite.

I doubt she'll be joining me on any 'extreme' rides - it would likely spoil it for both of us, but as a form of enjoyable exercise I'd say she's hooked.

Surreal thread. Generalising, I see I'm meant to be white, middle class, under 40 (ha), have children, not want bruises, be reluctant to be seen with a sweat on, have no interest in taking care of myself on the trail, not want to get muddy and wet cleaning my bike, and have little interest in being in the saddle for more than an hour. Shoot me now.

Alienate? Utter tosh.
The ladies get their own specific bikes, clothing and races, and toilets.
While they have money the industry will cater for them.
Ladies have always been welcome on every group ride I have ever been on.

This feels like one of those crappy daytime tv shows were we waste our time on a non existent argument.

The only shocking thing I have seen was the lady winners at Bristol bike fest got a set of pedros brushes to share between the team. Low value prize, broken up and shared, a brush, all that work for a brush. They could have thrown in some marigolds and a pinny.

'if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough'

So true. I find there is no correlation between crashing and improving. Crashing just means you're riding really badly, not thinking things through, and basically that something serious is going wrong!

You don't see rowers (one of my other sports) saying "ooh, if you don't sink you're not improving". Mountaineers: "falling off the mountain. Rad!". So why in mountain biking? It does harm the sport's image I think.

Another significant thing that I know for a fact alienates a lot of my friends (male and female) from trying riding, in the Alps at least? Stupid body armour and full face gear. It does alienate people.

So having mulled it over some more I still consider the original premise a flawed one, that MTBing is poorer for a lack of Female participation...

Surely the very nature of the activity sort of requires a bit of "Machismo" whether you are male or Female, it is after all taking bicycles and riders out of their urban environment and into the muddy, undulating, tree ridden wilderness, the perceived increase in risk (Perceived because I consider Road riding ultimately more dangerous, but that's another debate) must prompt a degree of brash, and slightly more aggressive behaviour; seen by many here as putting Women participants off.
MTB by it's very nature isn't a "Timid" sport, and I don't think it is particularly fair to Women to assume they are mostly unable to handle a bit of Machismo, Horse riding, where Women are better represented, is not a sport for softies... Water MTBing down to the point where it lacks the danger and risk factor disappear and it's no longer MTBing, and I'm still not sure you would attract more Female to the sport...

I think the underepresentation of Women is understandable, when you try to put the Sport/activity in a wider social context, perhaps even acceptable? What I mean the sport is what it is, it has many sub-disciplines and variations and if none of these appeals to the majority of Western Females then is there much point in challenging that? Not that I'd argue for maintaining the Status-Quo, but the assumption that the culture of a sport is flawed in some way because there are fewer female participants, rather than considering the posibility that it simlpy doesn't chime with wider Societal norms for Females seems a little short sighted...

What I think is of more concern is the Ethnic make up of MTBing, if we accept what Sue_W's research indicates which is that income is not a major barrier to participation, then why is MTBing largely White? Not that a gender inbalance is in someway more acceptable, but it is at least easier to understand...
Speaking personally MTBing is what I would consider an "Alternative" sport ie not Football, Rugby, Tennis, Cricket, and not being part of the mainstream sporting culture of the UK has always made me think of the sport as more open and accepting of difference, not that I haven't ridden with people of different ethnic backgrounds, but most of the faces at any race or on any ride are White, Perhaps the White Male Machismo factor puts of more than just Female participants...

The only shocking thing I have seen was the lady winners at Bristol bike fest got a set of pedros brushes to share between the team. Low value prize, broken up and shared, a brush, all that work for a brush. They could have thrown in some marigolds and a pinny.

When I won the fun solo class at Bristol a few years ago, I got a pair of man's riding gloves. I kid you not. 😡

Listen to the Ladies DH commentary from the last round and for the majority of it, you get Rob Warner talking about how the guys are gonna be riding the course better. I don't really GAS when I am watching the ladies - I want to know how they are doing and how they compare to each other.

Specific bikes for women? Yeah, mostly bottom of the range with shite components. Look at the Lapierre range this year.....I want a carbon Zesty with a shorter top tube. Can I get one, can I heck! Test rides are a nightmare - I gave up trying to sort anything for a DH bike test ride wise as everything comes with male sized coils and it's clearly just far too much hassle for shops to change them round.

TBH, the industry/mags/films alienate women. The guys on the trail rarely do*. Although, saying that, I do have a habit of organising rides to make damn sure I am included. I also feel blessed that when I started riding a few years ago I did so through meeting people from a very friendly forum where egos are small, but hearts and love for riding is huge. They nurtured me through many tantrums, panic attacks and injuries to make me the rider I am. And they were all guys - it's only recently I have got to ride in all female groups. The (overall) contrasting views/attitudes and reasons for riding between the ladies and men are massive, but neither is right or wrong, and both ladies and men have the ability to love and hate the sport equally.

I do think not being technologically talkative may alienate women from the male side of things on a male dominated ride. It's only as my riding has improved I've started to appreciate things like bike set-up. Now I can hold a three hour conversation about the most appropriate tyre combination for any given trail conditions, the merits of less damping and whether to move to 1x10 I feel much more included in proceedings. 😆

*as a note: expect certain husbands/boyfriends who stick their misses on a dodgy bike, shout at her that 'even my nan could ride that' and leave her behind. Oh, and organised groups that say 'all inclusive ride, all welcome' and then leave the female member of the group lost on the first climb. Yes, this kind of stuff really does happen!

Oh, and after that minor rant up there^ I am still gonna write an essay about the issue!

oh and Poly re: 'in general women that mtb are better looking than the average population' - I'm afraid from my experience that might be a minority view - I've been told I'm not feminine cos I don't wear enough make up

and another 'friend' insisted I wore stockings at her wedding cos I was bound to have bruises or cuts on my legs and that 'wouldn't look good'!

I am intrigued how you gather your data though? Is this through "surveys"? How do you correct for the fact that if some guy goes MTBing 3 times a year then he probably ticks the "regular mountain biker" box but if a woman goes MTBing 4 times a year then she probably goes - "only very occasionally", i.e. are there differing degrees of honesty in the genders...

Also how do you define mountainbiking? Different people will have different interpretations (and again an average bloke probably exaggerates the difficulty of what he rides!). Do the sexes agree on the definition? IMHO anything which is not on road/sustrans path probably qualified (although I reserve the right to slag anyone off who claims to have been serious mountainbiking without ever going up mountains!). I wonder if women have the same interpretation - and assume it has to be more adverturous/arduous/dangerous than a ride in woods or bridleway in the hills.

Not withstanding that - presumably there is some varied distribution of how much time people spend on their MTBs. Do women and men's distributions follow the same shape? I'd certainly believe that women do it less than men (because of the time pressures etc).

Any comments on how access to Bike-to-work scheme may influence female participation? It is widely accepted the BTW has increased the number of bike owners and users - whilst it is not designed to increase MTB activity, there is enough anecdotal evidence here and elsewhere that it does. BTW favours high earners more - I believe there are more male high earners. BTW is not possible for "stay at home mums". Part time workers (more Women) are less likely to use BTW as it sacrafices a bigger chunk of earnings. Minimum wage workers (I'd guess this may be more women?) may not be eligible. Some large public sector employers have been very slow to get involved in BTW. Public sector employees will not usually benefit from the VAT saving. I'd guess that there are more women in the public sector than men (although that may just be the bits I deal with). Those time pressures on Women may also make them less inclined to cycle to work.

Generalising, I see I'm meant to be white, middle class, under 40

I think you miss the point there somewhat!

My own private belief is that mountain biking appeals because it's a pack behaviour territory-claiming activity

Total rubbish. I ride alone, and whenever I see bikers they are usually alone too or very occasionally in pairs.

Can't agree that women are alienated at all, at a basic leisure activity level.

I've been very surprised recently while 'on standby' at a crossover point of the C2C as to how many women are now cycling. I would say 30-40% of cyclists I see are women, with many in groups of 4 or more. In mixed groups however, the proportion of women is very small, or in most cases non-existent. I would suspect that the reasons are many but I think the main one is the fact that male groups tend to go at a quicker pace and appear to be taking it much more seriously.

One thing which is very apparent from my observations is that almost all the women seem to be enjoying it, whereas some of the men really look as though they aren't and it's some sort of ordeal that they have to endure!

Oh, there is also a marked difference in bike and gear spend and it's quite unusual to see a women on anything more than a entry level bike. That could be more of a reflection on the route than anything else though.

poly - the data comes from a national household survey on participation in all outdoor pursuits / recreation which is run by the agency I work for (we are a government funded body that act as independent advisors at the national level). There are 3 of these surveys in the UK - I am responsible for managing the one for Wales, and co-ordinate with my colleagues who run similar surveys in England and Scotland.

All the surveys are methodologically the same as other national surveys that you might have heard of (eg the British Crime Survey). They have very large sample sizes, use RDD (a form of statistical random selection), and are subsequently weighted to be representative of the current population demographics. This means that although over 6000 people were interviewed, their responses are representative of the population as a whole. It's rare to have data which is this robust as it's very expensive and time consuming to do, so most other surveys use a smaller number of respondents and less robust sampling techniques, which unfortunately compromises the validity of the results. This makes collecting statistically valid data on schemes like BtW rather difficult, so I tend to use macro-scale data from national surveys to monitor participation and change.

In terms of what counted as 'participating', the survey I work on uses 3 levels of questions - one asks about what outdoor activities you have undertaken at least once in the last 12 months, then what you have done in the last 4 weeks, and finally what activity you have done most recently. What we have found is that the 'gender difference' gets greater between the 12 month / 4 week frequency - ie women's participation relative to mens drops significantly between 'occassional' and 'frequent' participation. Defining different forms of cycling was quite complicated (as it was for many other types of outdoor pursuits). After a lot of preparatory research, we used to 'main categories' - defined as 'off-road cycling and / or mountain biking', and 'road / tarmac cycle-path based cycling'. Under these primary categories we have a range of sub-categories that enable me to identify the type of off-road cycling / mountain biking that has been done (ie whether it was using an unsurfaced cycle track, bridleway, or purpose-build single track).

I'm currently just reviewing some very extensive results of detailed multivariate analysis on participation in both mountain biking and road cycling, that will be looking at the statisically significant differences in participation across all socio-demographic groups, motivations, barriers, latent demand, and other factors such as the distance poeple travel to ride and who they ride with. If you want to know more (before I send the entire forum to sleep!), contact me at work: su.williams@ccw.gov.uk

Sue, thanks for the comprehensive answer. I suspect you are far from sending the forum to sleep - rather your input has been some of the most interesting I've read on STW for weeks!

Attractiveness is all relative - and not only are they "better looking" than average, but they are also are much more "appealing" than the average woman since they have things in common, don't usually talk about the X-factor and bigbrother etc.

"Better looking" and "appealing" are, indeed, subjective. For example, I disagree completely with you - I've seen/met very few female bikers I've found to be attractive! I would agree though that guys don't care whether someone's glammed up on a bike. I used to date a girl who insisted she put on her fake tan before going riding as she was self-concious about the colour of her legs - totally ridiculous when they're going to get muddy/scratched/bruised anyway!

The only shocking thing I have seen was the lady winners at Bristol bike fest got a set of pedros brushes to share between the team. Low value prize, broken up and shared, a brush, all that work for a brush. They could have thrown in some marigolds and a pinny.

shocking I agree, we are a two bit local grass roots race series. We have worked hard to to get prize equality first supported by Bardon aggregates and Leisure Lakes and now Cooksons Cycles our Racing Diva podium for race one got a total of £200 of Cooksons Cycles vouchers, (the blokes get the same value of Leisure Lakes vouchers) with Adela Carter walking off with £25 for the first lap prime and £100 for the win. If she keeps racing and winning the series prize of a set of Hope SPXC6 wheels is hers as well.
(sorry no marigolds or pinny :wink:) not bad for less than a couple of hours racing

We have shown that the sponsors are supportive and that if organisers push it prize parity is possible.

See you (all) on the start line www.brownbacksracing.co.uk race 2 24th July

Sue W - finally someone who's trying to bring some sense to cycling stats. Never mind the gender splits information gathering about mountain biking has always been pitiful at best.

@globalti (and others)

You know I had no idea that this shit was going on! (and I'm not disputing it). Because my sister was into MTB before I was, I took her lead. And she usually had a better bike than I did, as I had to budget for a car and she lived in the peaks already with no need for one. So I've never seen it as a male thing.

My advice is, given that I have never witnessed any of this stuff, is avoid clubs and go and do your own ride! I don't compete with anyone on spec, talent or fitness. And my MTB world is fully inclusive, as long as there isn't too many on one ride. I hate crowds.

Have tried to skim-read some of the responses... and have failed, so I'm going to be very simplistic in my response to the OP:

-I find riding on my own gets very boring after a while.
-I have no girl-friends who would ride with me regularly - only one of them exercises with any regularity. I have taken three friends to Glentress and they enjoyed it immensely, but they would never spend the money and time on getting their own bike.
-I really like riding with my boyfriend - he is the only male I feel comfortable riding with because I don't feel bad for holding him up. Unfortunately he is much more interested in racing SDAs so there's not much opportunity for day-trips out somewhere.
-I hate bike maintenance. (I can handle cleaning it and that's it)
-Appearance whilst riding really doesn't bother me; nor does the mud/sweatiness factor. However, I get very cold and miserable very quickly if it's absolutely soaking. I'm quite like my looks but I also seem to scar very easily which is probably a contributory factor when it comes to 'the fear of falling off and hitting a big pointy rock'
-I'm a girl and I don't like to get hurt.

None of these reasons suggest alienation to me at all. My own guilt for holding people up has never really been directly triggered from of a riding companion's response - all the men I've ridden with have been very patient and friendly. Having listed so many reasons that put me off mtb I can completely understand why a lot of women don't want to stick at it - As already mentioned, the girls I've taken biking have really enjoyed themselves - but my group of mates (me included) don't really have hobbies like men do. If I had no girl-friends I think I would spend a lot more time focused on one activity, having noticed that my OH spends most of his spare time biking with his mates, where as I spend most of my spare time biking/exercising [b]or[/b] with my mates doing something else.

So yes, lots of reasons why people don't mtb: looking at my own personal reasons I can see why it would put off proportionally more women than men. I don't care about the sport in a collective sense because I don't feel like a part of any community yet. Must be a virtuous cycle - the more women you have involved; the more likely their friends are to participate. From what I've seen there are plenty of women-oriented activities being organised and I think it'll all help female bikers find regular cycling partners- through introduction or just by meeting-up with people already biking. (Guess I personally just find it hard to make friends!)

Why are people even talking about women mountain bikers' appearance here? All I know is that I ride with some immensely capable women riders and generally their attitude is less ridiculously competitive than the blokes I know, which is refreshing. I don't know if women are 'alienated' by mountain biking, but if they are, it can only be a bad thing. I don't recognise the stereotypes of women riders a lot of posters seem to be fixated on. But that's just my experience.

Beyond that, much of this thread seems to be fluffy, anecdotal, opinionated, self-referential crap. It puts me off mountain biking... 😉

Some interesting discussion and thanks Sue_W for injecting some statistical discipline in.

What I'm struggling with from the OP is around "holding back the sport" - holding it back from what?
Maybe becoming the new football? I'd hardly call that progress.

It seems to me (purely anecdotal) is that more people are on bikes both on and off road now than 10 years ago.
A greater percentage appear to be women (although I live near Brighton where it can be hard to tell 😆 ).
There are more people on the hills now generally perhaps due to a wider social trend of outdoor health.
(on my grumpier days I don't regard this as progress & think about regressing into an uber-niche of letting my hair grow whilst riding a single-speed 69'er with drop handles)

Why are people even talking about women mountain bikers' appearance here? All I know is that I ride with some immensely capable women riders and generally their attitude is less ridiculously competitive than the blokes I know, which is refreshing.

Agreed. Often I find the people having the most fun are the ones not being too competitive. I struggle to get competitive at all when it comes to mountain biking, which I think explains why I still love it after all these years. Spent my teens trying to be competitive, and failing, playing rugby and I lost the love for it.

And in general, I think it's fair to say most women have a less overtly competitive nature. Well this is my observation of women I know who ride at least (my ex GF being the exception, she is the worlds most competitive person!), ad in general they often seem to be having more fun! Or at least just enjoying it for what it is, riding bikes in the woods...

This means that although over 6000 people were interviewed, their responses are representative of the population as a whole.

Sorry to question something, now you love me so much and all (still envious of the job by the way), but is this 6000 supposed to be representative of the whole of the UK? I'd class myself as intermediate to advanced in terms of my statistics knowledge and ability, but I've worked with and for people who blow your mind, including GE Master Black Belts, and I know that there is all sorts of research and evidence into what constitutes a representative sample size, and it's of the order of at least 10%. So i'd expect to see a sample size of approximately 6,000,000 when referring to the UK population as a whole, 6,000 doesn't come close! Who is determining the sample sizes? As for data to be meaningful and not pointless, we need to collect the correct data and quantities of it in the first place, otherwise it's no better than heresay and conjecture, or in worse cases still can be manipulated by govt spin doctors to send the message that they want the people to hear, even if it's totally wrong... "Lying with statistics it's called", and sadly it's all too easy to do! Read up into why the Challenger Space Shuttle disaster occurred for a tragic example of lying with statistics in use.

Sounds like a load of tosh and waffle to me.

Just my experience of what non mountain biking people often think of the sport/pastime we know and love. Those of us that partake often view things through Rose tinted specs because we love it. On the face of it, the sport is predominantly middle aged White men riding bikes around in a loop, to Mr. average down the pub it is no more appealing, glamourous or cool than playing Golf, hillwalking or any other healthy outdoorsy pastime. Hence why Mr. Average sits in the pub, drinking beer, shouting at the footy on the telly. He can relate to that as he once scored a goal for the under 13's when he was at school, but can't relate to taking proper exercise in the countryside or doing anything remotely strenuous... That's just not cool! 😉

It's all about perception...

Seriously interesting topic and great responses everyone, I've really enjoyed reading this.

A little while back I went to see [url= http://www.resetfilms.co.uk/ ]Find[/url] and Home films, showing in Glasgow. I went with my then girlfriend, who was just getting into riding. While we both enjoyed the films, there was one section that stood out: a section of a couple riding in Mabie I think it was. This husband and wife were stressing the social, non-competetive, non aggressive side of riding. It stood out partly because it featured a woman (!) and because it was a refreshing change from the competitive crap and the drinking and one upmanship or most mtb media. It felt relaxed and fun.

That section was immediately followed by a load of crash footage from some race. I could of cried.

mboy - final sample size of 6045, achieved from a 21% response rate. It is representative of the adult population (16+) living in Wales, whilst the English and Scottish surveys are similarly representative of their adult populations. Generally, there is no standard minimum, eg 10% of population, for a representative sample, as the sample size is dependent on the amount of change you are wanting to measure, and therefore on the confidence intervals, which are in turn affected by weighting for bias. Bias is in itself dependent on your sampling technique and the weighting you use (we have to use two different weights for different question sections within the survey).

The sampling a weighting of the Welsh survey has been particularly complex in order to ensure it is statistically valid at a population level as we need the data to also be representative of overlapping geographical regions (and developing a sampling and weighting frame for overlapping areas is a bit of a 'mare!). I'm the Head of Social Science here, so have a reasonable grasp of statisitcs, but my main areas of expertise are on research development, analysis and interpretation, not pure statistics, so for this one I commissioned the Chief Statistician at Ipsos Mori (probably the largest survey company in the UK) to work on ensuring it is representative. It's also classified as 'official statistics' (to be used in government policy) so has to pass the standards and scrutiny of the independent UK Statistics Authority.

I think I have now out-spodded myself!

why is MTBing largely white?

I always wondered about this in the context of hill-walking, climbing, paddling, in fact just about all outdoor leisure activities I've been doing.

Any research/theories about this Sue?

buzz-lightyear - Member

why is MTBing largely white?

I always wondered about this in the context of hill-walking, climbing, paddling, in fact just about all outdoor leisure activities I've been doing.

Any research/theories about this?

horse riding seems to have many parallels to mtb, lots of maintenance, dirty and sweaty with an element of risk and danger so why is it a mainly female thing to do?

buzz-lightyear - Member

why is MTBing largely white?

I always wondered about this in the context of hill-walking, climbing, paddling, in fact just about all outdoor leisure activities I've been doing.

Cultural. There's actually a National Parks initiative called The Mosaic Project which aims to increase the number of visitors to National Parks from ethnic minorities, by working with community leaders, arranging organised visits and so on.

The premise behind it is, as I understand it, that a lot of urban-based, ethnic minority communities don't have a culture of going into the outdoors. Youngsters aren't introduced to it in the same way as they might be in other circumstances and so on.

It seems to enrage a lot of people. Personally I think it's a brilliant initiative and when you look at the amount of money we spend on bombs, missiles and MPs' expenses, it's a drop in the ocean.

I've seen black and Middle Eastern people on Holmbury before

Waiting for someone to say "enrichment"

jhw - Member
I've seen black and Middle Eastern people on Holmbury before

i've seen a dog on a skateboard before.

There is some very interesting comment on here and some very rubbish ones as well. But lets face it. What the STW dwellers think is just not representative at all about the mtbing community.
Go to any "big" event, how many people have never heard about stw? Plenty. How many people actually post on STW well very little as well. I bet very few people talk to elf knowing he was "The elf from stw". Out of interest, LBS owners, how many people said they are on stw? I bet very few.

i've seen a dog on a skateboard before.

Racist. 😀

It's been interesting to see how many of the stw female mtbers don't enjoy or know how to maintain or look after their bikes. I'm one of them and am quite ashamed that hubby does all the upkeep, servicing and looking after the bikes.

I do clean them and can change an innter tube if I get a flat but apart from that, all the info he gives me seems to go in one ear and out of the other. It's not being lazy, as I end up doing all the house type things, it seems to suit us.
Maybe because my actual job is very female orientated.

I think I have now out-spodded myself!

Can I ask Sue, are you single? I think I've just fallen in love! 😉

Seriously though, fair play you know your subject but I am still a little surprised by what I consider to still be a small sample. You're bang on correct, sample size really can depend on the significance of the change you're trying to see, but I've always taken the approach that too much data is better than too little. Suppose I've been lucky enough though that any statistical analysis I've ever done, all my data has come out of a machine, and I've only had to interrogate access databases and excel spreadsheets to get the data I needed, not wait on actual people to actually respond to a questionnaire!

You're right, a bigger sample would be much better! Unfortunately it really expensive to run 'human' surveys, and I can't see my budget getting any bigger over the next few years.

The down side is that in some areas, the sub-sample sizes are too small for statistically robust analysis. One of those areas is in relation to 'non- white' demographic groups. Collectively, only 2% of the adult population in Wales is from non-White ethnic groups, so I can't do any analysis. Especially as there is obviously a huge diversity of different ethnic groups and cultures within that 2%, and assuming that all of them are the same would be rather wrong!

There's been some interesting qualitative research that's been done on perceptions and preferences of different ethnic groups towards participation in outdoor pursuits and use of the 'countryside'. But overall I think our starting point should be to understand people's preferences first, and then consider whether what is currently offered as 'outdoor recreation' today really meets the needs of the diversity of people in the UK, or just the preferences of a traditional minority?

Oh, and happily* single ... probably due to not being a proper girl and going out biking rather than shopping, plus being a bit of a research spod ... I suspect neither are considered particularly sexy by the majority of guys!

* most of the time - having a bit of a blip today as I'm trying to deal with some rather bad news and a hug or shoulder to lean on would be kinda nice right now ... but I'm going to WTFU and go out for a ride now ..,

There is some very interesting comment on here and some very rubbish ones as well. But lets face it. What the STW dwellers think is just not representative at all about the mtbing community.

Its probably a fair comment about STW bias - the forum is kind of James May as mountain biking.

But overall I think our starting point should be to understand people's preferences first, and then consider whether what is currently offered as 'outdoor recreation' today really meets the needs of the diversity of people in the UK, or just the preferences of a traditional minority?

This is where I have doubts about the inclusion programmes - great but also you do wonder if its just another form of cultural imperialism. Despite this niggle I'd still think they are a good idea so long as the are providing informed choice.

I got my hubby into mtb'ing, and am much more likely to a) spend ages researching new bike bits or b) be found fettling than he is. I have noticed an increase in the number of women I see out and about in the few years I have been riding, but I think that part of the problem is that generally women don't get to dump the kids with the spouse while they beetle off riding for the day (certainly the case with my ex riding friends). Another issue is that for the same level of fitness guys are generally faster and stronger than women, so if you ride with men because the women are doing childcare you get fed up with feeling like you're holding everyone up, again. I only ride with my hubby, coz he has to put up with me, it's in the contract, and the only time I've been faster than him uphill I was training for a marathon & substantially fitter. I'm lots faster than him downhill though!! As a sweeping generalisation, I think women are less interested in the competetive aspect of the sport, that's certainly the case for the limited number of mtb'ing men & women I know. I have absolutely no desire to compete with anyone other than myself.

Does it hold the sport back? Proof?

Look, life is short, don't give the men/women thing any energy, just go and ride yer bike, I don't give a shit about whether the PEOPLE I ride with are men or women (or black/white/yellow/brown/fat/thin/tall/short/hairy/bald/rich/poor)

I forgot, I hate the golf analogy, golf is about social climbing,biking isn't.

Hmm! I'm female and have mtb'd for last 6 years after a break for about 10 years whilst being pregnant and looking after small children. Oh yes! I mtb'd on a fully rigid 40lb (probably) steel bike in the 90's and was never aware that I wasn't supposed to ride on footpaths.

Women are not the same as men. This shows in physiological testing (such as men have a higher VO2 capacity, which allows greater supply of oxygen to the muscles) and quite often out on the trails. The reason many women, myself included will let someone - who may be a man - overtake them, is because I enjoy riding far more without someone impatiently following me.
I am far less competitive than my husband, but I still am competitive, but pick my 'fights' as I have less resources in speed, strength and technical skills. I find I generally push myself harder when riding with faster riders who may be men or women, due to this competitive edge and not wanting to be the 'weakest link' for all of the ride. I also really enjoy riding in groups where the pace is sociable and it may take several hours longer to do a ride than usual. I enjoy both sorts of rides and it adds to the overall appeal of mountain biking for me. It doesn't matter too much what the mix is of male / female
Some blokes are idiots on bikes and very intolerant and so are some women.
1 of the few times I have felt overpowered by the male side of mtbing was one weekend at Afan, where the testosterone could be smelt for miles and it took me a little while to settle, but I soon realised it was nothing to worry about.
Industry wise - I fit men's bikes better than womens, so have no issues there, enter very few events and never win prizes and was unaware they were so rubbish.
I think a lot of it is about individuals - those women who want to ride and be out of their comfort zone, get cold and muddy, have bruises and cuts to hide at weddings etc will do.
I think there are so many opportunities for women to ride nowadays, they would have to look to themselves for reasons not to ride, but I am very biased.

golf is about social climbing

Where did you get that idea from - TV/film stereotypes maybe? Golfers come from all walks of life 🙄

It's the type of men that MTB that are "holding back the sport". I'm a hot, fit bloke and I bike with loads of chicks. You lot must be right munters. Stop being geeks that spend all your time on the internets and being insular, body concious hypochondriacs and have some fun. The chicks will flock to the sport. Hope this helps.

Woody: the firm I work for, do we have mountainbiking days? No, we do not. Do we have golf days? Yes, we do. Do we have golf tournaments with potential/important clients? Yes, we do. Do we make/cement lots of contacts on the golf course? Yes, we do. Are lots of our clients fellow golf club members? Oh, yes, they are.*

So, no, not from film/tv, from real life.

This is representative of the industry, and of the industries of the clients. Fact.

This is representative of the industry, and of the industries of the clients. Fact.

There is some business done on the golf course just as some business is done in pubs. Does that mean everyone who goes to the pub is a social climber?

You can't tar everyone who plays golf with the same brush, anymore than you can say mtb's are the preserve of middle class white males!

I'll be honest I haven't read all 6 pages of this post but I'll put in my twopenn'orth if that's ok.

I'm a female rider and at the moment I ride with a group on a Sunday morning when I can. A couple of weeks ago there were 5 of us out, and that's fairly normal. Yes, we stop and chat about sections but it's a mixed ability group and sometimes we want to session a spot so we can get better. That doesn't always happen with the blokes.

However, on that Sunday there were women all about the place riding in groups or with male partners/friends (I didn't ask). i actually commented on how many I'd seen.

I don't ride as much as I'd like but that's not because I feel alienated but because I have a small child. I no longer do the evening or all day rides I used to. My hubby (and riding buddy) and I last went out together months ago as we tag team parent on rides now.

I love fettling my bike but don't have the time because Baby Kip wants me as soon as I start to do anything focussed away from her (even if she's been playing happily prior to that!!)

What holds back women in biking is often their guilt at taking time for themselves away from their family. They often feel they should be the main care-giver and, as Dad is often works long hours as the main wage earner, feel Dad deserves the time-out more than they do. I'm lucky that Mr Kip is massively supportive and lets me have as much time as I want, but TBH I don't want to take the p*ss as he deserves the break as much as me. We compromise and as such get out maybe once a week if we're lucky.

I love riding my bike for the fun, the dirt, the exercise and the social side of riding with men and women.

Actually, the mtb demographic IS middle-class white males.

I bet there are a lot more people who just go to the pub for a drink than folk who go to the golf course just to play golf.

ENOUGH! Let's just chill and ride? (irrespective of gender)

My ex came from Wales, he was very keen on golf (and good at it) - he never played a single stroke here (home counties) because he just couldn't get his head around the social climbing aspect of it.

That is rather sad KoF because I played fairly regularly round your area and I can safely say that there wasn't a single person I played with who viewed it as a social climbing activity. You are confusing the average player with the nob-ends who see membership of a prestigious club in the same way as they would having the 'right' car or living in the 'right' postcode.

Spot-on re what you say on getting out and riding regardless of gender/race/colour but equally I would recommend golf to any youngster as an outdoor pastime which you can enjoy for most of your life.

Look, life is short, don't give the men/women thing any energy, just go and ride yer bike, I don't give a shit about whether the PEOPLE I ride with are men or women (or black/white/yellow/brown/fat/thin/tall/short/hairy/bald/rich/poor)

Kind of agree and disagree with this. Mountain bikers on the whole just want to get out and ride bikes. Fine but in the grand scheme of things it is does result in it being seen as a white middle class male thing. Not good in a tick box society as it puts mountain biking low down the pecking order. If no one is trying to change that point of view the whole sport gets marginalised because its actually seen as being mainstream.

People are short of time so we need to grab our riding when we can but if that local loop gets sanitised because of a perception not doing it only really helps white middle class males then it doesnt really do anything for people who mountain bike.

Woody: the firm I work for, do we have mountainbiking days? No, we do not. Do we have golf days? Yes, we do. Do we have golf tournaments with potential/important clients? Yes, we do. Do we make/cement lots of contacts on the golf course? Yes, we do. Are lots of our clients fellow golf club members? Oh, yes, they are.*

soon to be hampered by the Bribery Act which comes in on Friday, certain ammunition for the companies that don't play golf

The chicks I ride with think it's a mark of respect when we call them "dude" (it is)

They don't like it when other guys on the trails call them "mate" by accident (usually they haven't clocked their Sombrio gloves)

As for the race issue, well I once saw a ski resort promotion cartoon featuring some African American skiers, it just didn't ring true...

Some blokes are idiots on bikes

I suggest if you're not being an idiot on your bike some of the time you're taking it too seriouslly (regardless of gender)

Some blokes are idiots on bikes and very intolerant and so are some women.

I suggest if you're not being an idiot on your bike some of the time you're taking it too seriouslly (regardless of gender)

Some blokes are idiots on bikes and very amusing and so are some women.... whatever 😉

Despite my moderate-ish post on page three of this spiraling load of flim flam, my on trail attitude is rather the same as Karinofnine's.

I don't care who I ride with as long as they can keep up, since the slow/beginners ruin a ride by introducing too much waiting and curtailing the kind of trails that can be ridden. I've got no interest in bringing more people into mtbing - there are too many on the trails already. 😈

Similarly, I expect to be left behind if I ride with a group with skills and fitness beyond my own.

I think there are loads of riders with that kind of selfish attitude - at the end of the day, I ride for me, because I like to. I'm not rude, I'm cheerful and jokey, but I can understand how my general attitude could be seen as having the potential to alienate people that might possibly get into mtbing. Thats just tough, its not really my problem, and I'm not sure its even an issue.

If you want to do something, you will. More blokes than women want to ride mtb. More whites than ethic minorities want to get into mtb. I don't really get why mtb is somehow damaged or not 'complete' because some kinds of people don't want to do it. Is it just 'all-inclusive hand wringing?'

Sport = competition
Womens competition = sideshow

Sorry but it's true!

Scienceofficer and GW - thanks for reminding me of why I generally don't particulary like the mtb'ing world any more, and why I do more mountaineering / climbing etc where such attitudes don't exist (yes, people in those activities want to push themselves to their limits at beyond, but they're also keen to encourage and help others, and would never, ever leave anyone behind in the mountains - in fact that would be considered to be not only selfish but utterly incompetent behaviour).

But before you just bracket me into the 'sour grapes / uptight female' category, lets try another example that illustrates why I think both your attitudes suck:

My brother was born with profound and multiple disabilities - the list of details would take far to long, but surfice to say he has very limited physical ability (including things such as deformed skeletal structure, lack of co-ordiantion and balance etc). However, he's also the person who's taught me the most about real courage, effort, overcoming a huge amount of pain (after a lifetime of continuous operations) and positivity. We've always just mucked in together and helped out, at times literally carrying him up mountains between us so he can join in, and then a while ago he wanted to try cycling. Now if we all had the attitude of Scienceofficer, it would have been 'tough' - you can't keep up, and frankly we don't want you cluttering up the 'supposedly' already busy trails. Fortunately thanks to lots of support and help from volunteers and us as his family, he now cycles loads, and a couple of years ago took part in the Special Olympics and won a gold medal in the cycling Time Trial - but then for GW that would propably just be even more of a 'sideshow'.

So for me it's not 'all-inclusive hand-wringing' - its about having basic human decency to help others where and when you can (and yes, within that's there's still plenty of time and opportunity to do you own thing and push yourself to you own limits). Biking with my brother is a real laugh - it might take 3 of us just to get him upright on the back of a tandem, but after that he's as competative as any other guy and is well up for riding the rough stuff!

Sport = competition
Womens competition = sideshow

Sorry but it's true!

really? the women racing our series proportionally show more skill and technique than the blokes, riding stuff that has half the blokes walking down

it's only a sideshow if you treat it as such, we don't, our sponsors don't, others shouldn't 😀

Why should people, who are mtb'ers, care about the demographic of mtb'ers? I don't understand??

Sue you make fair and valid points. I posted my comments in full awareness that they would attract some criticism.

I think using such a polarised example is a bit disingenuous, since its rather outside the typical 'getting into mtb example' An outlier if you will.

If my brother was equally disabled, I too, would be going the extra mile to include him - Thats the strength of familial ties, and is indeed time and effort gladly given, but I would still be riding with people more competent to get the fix I need.

But you won't find me looking around to drag people into an activity they have no interest in.

Oh, you mis-interpret me - I won't leave anyone in the hills either - I won't ride with them more often than not. But if there is a mismatch in skill/fitness that become apparent on a ride, I'll hang about. If they ask for help or pointers I'm happy to offer advice on the little I know, but I won't be forcing anything on them.

Fortunately, I'm pretty average, thus, I'm fairly similar to loads of people and will happily ride with most.

Scienceofficer - you're right I did deliberately use a very different example as I wanted to try and break the view that this is just about women, but that attitudes about not wanting to include those who aren't 'good enough' affect many people, including those with disabilities.

I don't think I mis-interpreted you, especially this part:

"I don't care who I ride with as long as they can keep up, since the slow/beginners ruin a ride by introducing too much waiting and curtailing the kind of trails that can be ridden. I've got no interest in bringing more people into mtbing - there are too many on the trails already.

Similarly, I expect to be left behind if I ride with a group with skills and fitness beyond my own."

A few points that maybe you will consider to be more relevant, and less 'disingenuous' 🙂

- one of the frequent comments I hear from women is that they don't go out with local clubs becuase they are worried about holding them up / being too slow / ruining someone's ride. I think that it is something of a shame that people don't join in becuase they don't feel that they are good enough. And how many people then don't progress in their riding, or drop out altogether, becuase they don't have access to the social side of riding? Incidently, many of these women are actually reasonable riders, but I guess if they've heard someone making comments like yours, then they certainly wouldn't want to chance it. Personally, I get a buzz out of riding with someone who's newer to biking - it's great to see them grinning and enjoying themselves no matter how slow or easy the ride.

- what about people who are injured or develop an illness or condition that could affect their riding? Should they then not ride with others any more cos they'll hold them up? there are many examples of people on this forum who are in that position. A while ago I put forward a suggestion on another biking forum (interestingly one that is mainly frequented by women), for post-injury / easy / social rides - they've become pretty popular for a wide range of riders 🙂

- also your phrase 'similarly I would expect to be left behind' does imply that you find it perfectly acceptable to be 'dropped', or similarly to 'drop others' from a group ride if they are not keeping up. How dangerous can that be? As an example a few years ago I had post viral fatigue - I didn't know at that point as it hadn't diagnosed, but the people who I was riding with knew that I'd been ill. we got half way roudn the ride, high in the mountains and I couldn't keep up any more. They left me to find my own way down, whilst they went off on the rest of the ride. at the time I thought that was perfectly acceptable, as I didn't want to 'ruin their ride' but talking to some mountaineering friends afterwards I found they were completely shocked. (oh and incidently one of those people was my long-term partner at that point, who was a perfect example of the 'if you're not good enough I don't want to ride with you at any point' brigade).

Sport = competition
Womens competition = sideshow
Sorry but it's true!

I thought we'd already established that on the whole, most of us are partaking in mountain biking not as s sport, but as a pastime, or hobby if you will?

Competition doesn't come into it for the vast majority of us, except for with ourselves. I'll push myself to go faster over a bit of trail than before (sometimes, not all the time certainly) but couldn't care less how I shape up compared to anyone else.

As for women's sport being a sideshow... I don't care about the sex of the individuals competing, but of their ability to impress or entertain me when I'm watching sport. Men are always going to have an edge, it's in our physiology, but in every sport I've watched with wowen competing in recently I haven't failed to be impressed. The number of girls lapping ridiculously quickly at Mayhem the other weekend was impressive. I watched a days play of the ladies Ashes cricket last summer (sadly I was one of only about 20 people there watching!), both teams were seriously good. And I don't mean "good for girls", but the level of cricket being played was excellent to watch. And then there's women's football. Now I'm no football fan, cos the game has been spoilt by money, corruption, and overpaid halfwits putting on a song and dance all the time. Watching the pro females playing it is quite refreshing, they don't dive around half as much, they focus much more on the skills used and as such I think it's a better game to watch.

And then there's tennis. Ok it's impressive watching the guys bang a few 140mph serves in, but often the girls have much longer rallies.

Oh, and happily* single ... probably due to not being a proper girl and going out biking rather than shopping, plus being a bit of a research spod ... I suspect neither are considered particularly sexy by the majority of guys!

You've been meeting the wrong guys Sue! 😉