[Closed] Why do Shimano stick with cup and cone?

sealing is good and they work well, cheap to overhaul.

They work well and last forever, if looked after.
Cartridge bearings are fit and forget, then throw away when worn out.

Different attitudes to bicycle maintenance....

because its cheap to stick with them, simple as that

I thought no one else made them because shimano own the patent or whatever.

they deal with lateral loading better - apparently.
they're also better because of the fine adjustment available with cup and cone.
Most cartridge hubs have no preload adjustment, just preload.

Allegedly, the bearing surfaces get work hardened and last forever. If they are looked after.

What everyone up there's already said.

They work well and last indefinately if well maintained, and can be serviced by any bike shop or home mechanic anywhere with just a couple of cone spanners. Contrast that with the drifts/pullers required to do other hubs properly (yes, hope you can get away with a hammer and socket set but you can't for example with DT).

I'd still get hope for offroad though as I prefer that kind of maintenance on my MTB's as the intervals are longer. On the road bike shimano lasts long enough between services to be of no consequence even if it is shorter than cartriges might last.

Why do Shimano stick with cup and cone?

for the same reason that some other manufacturers choose to use cartridge bearings.

'They' believe it to be the best* solutuion to get the job done.

Others may disagree but there are pros and cons to every solution.

*best is always a complex mix of many factors, strength, sealing, longevity, maintainability, adjustability, rolling resistance, cost etc.

I outed my shimano rear hub in 2004 as it was shot due to no maintenance whatsoever, 1 year old, swapped to Hope hub and other than one strip and cleanout I havent had to do anything.

Maintenace is always the key to making something last indefinately, but for me cartridge bearings are just better, when my Hopes need a new bearing I wont grumble.

Dont Mavic wheels still use cup and cone?

Shimano patent for C&C cant be quite right, as my Raleigh Chopper has cup and cone bearings.. 🙂

I wouldn't say one is better than the other.

Cup and cones need to be serviced more oftern - still reasonable service intervals with well sealed hubs though. But the maintenance is really straight forward - some clean grease.

Cartridge bearing will go longer between service intervals but there is a lot more involved in servicing them

Cup and cone hub patent probably expired in 1892.

I run both xt and hope hubs - no problems or strong feelings either way - both good tbh. Front hub xt on the CX bike lasts ages without anything needing doing.

I wouldn't say they are better or Worse, just an alternative to buying in bearings, Shimano made the investment ages ago in kit to produce their own bearings components (including grinding machines to finish the balls).

This allows shimano to do a couple of things really, it means the whole manufacturing process for all of their hub components is in house and under their own QC, and they have total control over costs;

Look at it this way the basic technology that an XTR and Alivio hub roll on is the same, however the materials used and the effort spent on batching and inspection of bearings, cones and races will reflect the relative Price point of the product, shimano can do that across their range...

That means they have something to offer at every pricepoint for the OEM market (Probably more of a target now than aftermarket customers)...

The obvious tade off for a consumer is the time and marginally more skill/faff involved in maintaining a loose bearing hub, Vs pressing out and old Cartridge bearing and pressing a new one in. it terms of durability they're about on a par, leave an XT hub un-maintained and do the same with a Pro-2 cover the same miles in the same conditions and both will start to fail at a similar point I reckon... it's just a bit quicker and easier to sort the pro-2 (IMO) hence people favour them...

cup and cone isn't a 'bad' technology you could argue it can produce less drag/friction and pretty much all of the individual can be replaced for pence rather than pounds...

I must say I acutally quite enjoy the sense of satisfaction in adjusting cones and the smooth spinning of freshly greased Shimano hubs, but have also seen the consequences of neglectful maintenance and scored races.

Currently running both Shimano snd cartridge bearings so can see the pros and cons of both.

Cartridge bearings are a 20th century solution. cup and cone are 19th

Cup and cone will not last indefinitely if you want a smooth play free bearing. If you will accept less than perfect they will. Cartridge bearings are either perfect or goosed - no slow decline. Once a cup and cone bearing has gone out of adjustment once it will never be perfect again.

I get many tens of thousands of miles of trouble free life from my cartridge bearing hubs - but I use good quality bearings and I do not remove the seals

Personally I believe cup and cone have no place on a modern bike.

Cartridge bearings are fit and forget, then throw away when worn out.

Different attitudes to bicycle maintenance....

...except Shimano is typically of the non-serviceable, bin-and-replace theory (BBs, even hydraulic calipers with non replaceable seals), it's only their hubs that encourage servicing and longevity.

[i]Personally I believe cup and cone have no place on a modern bike.[/i]

I think the issue there is that bikes are not 'modern' in a technological sense. The C&C is at the end of a long period of techological development and works well because of that. Cartridge bearings are a 'modern' answer, but not always the best.

One of my friends rode track internationally, and his front hub was C&C, with oil instead of grease, and one ball bearing removed. You could spin the wheel slowly and hear the tick as the balls slipped around into the empty space, and the wheel spun forever.

crickey - don'tlike the sound of removing one ball - however there is a nmarginal decrease in friction with c&c - because of the poor seals and less seals.

I have one cartidge wheel that will spin for ever like a good c&c one. the rest of them are slightly more friction because of the more and better seals

The obvious tade off for a consumer is the time and marginally more skill/faff involved in maintaining a loose bearing hub, Vs pressing out and old Cartridge bearing and pressing a new one in. it terms of durability they're about on a par, leave an XT hub un-maintained and do the same with a Pro-2 cover the same miles in the same conditions and both will start to fail at a similar point I reckon... it's just a bit quicker and easier to sort the pro-2 (IMO) hence people favour them...

You don't maintain a cartridge bearing hub at all - you replace the bearings once worn - every few years IME.

Try leaving a C&C bearing for ten thousand off road miles over years without touching it.

Less friction is the main gain i believe, you can spin the front mavic on my MTB and it goes on spinning for ages like a road bike wheel, no cup and cone will spin like that no matter how well adjusted

Same reason campaign do..........

I've always maintained my cartrdge bearing hubs extending the life well beyond the norm, but I am tighter than a nuns knickers. I pop the seals, clean out with brake cleaner and then regrease every year or so. You can keep them going usually to the point where the seals split from "popping" them off too often. I found with some shimano mtb cup & cones that they tend to undo themselves, especially on the rears. The road cup & cones are great. Shimano SPD pedals are cup & cone and these are great as long as they are maintained before there is too much play in them.

a decent cup and cone hub WILL spin as well if not better than a cartridge bearing hub.

adjustable preload is the key.

If you actually had to actively maintain a pro-2 I doubt I'd use them - that's removing the one big advantage cartridge bearing hubs have.

That's kind of my point... an SLX or XT needs preventative maintenance, a Hope will eventually just wear out its bearings, you replace them and go again... horses for courses...

TBH I don't really have the spare time to maintain C&C hubs on all my bikes, so I've done what many do and mostly defaulted to Hubs which use Cartridge bearings where possible...

for the same reason that some other manufacturers choose to use cartridge bearings.

'They' believe it to be the best* solutuion to get the job done.

Actually, other manufactueres use cartridge bearings becaue although they have the capabality to knock up an aluminium alloy hub on their CNC machines (who doesn't?), they don't have the capabilities to mass produce affordale precison bearings and have to source them elsewhere...hence cartridge bearings.

Changed the cartridge bearing in my Hope front hub after 7-8 years of off road use, abuse and washing just because they started sounded a bit noisy.
Would probably have last a few more years if I had popped the seals and cleaned and re-lubricated them, but it was just as easy to put new bearing in.
I avoid shimano hubs because they use C&C which in my view have no place on modern mid to high end mountain bikes or products 🙂

can be serviced by any bike shop or home mechanic anywhere with just a couple of cone spanners

True, assuming they have a range of about a dozen different sizes.. I like Shimnao hubs but I've lost count of how many spanners I have for the handful of wheelsets and a few hubs I have. OS axles, alu road axles, older MTB hubs.. need between 13 or 14mm and up to 28mm I think, it's daft. Went for Hopes on the last 2 wheel sets instead, bearings seem ok, 1 set went after 7 months but I'd service cones 2x a year so no real difference.

I couldn't care less what type of bearing a hub uses as long as the quality is good, unless I was world-touring and had to consider road-side maintenance and preventative vs reactive maintenance. SBs can be sorted with the axle, a lump of wood or similar, maybe some pliers, and a bit of know-how if you carry a couple of bearings and only when needed. c+c need the right spanners, some grease, perhaps the balls too and need checking. So I think I'd go SB in that case.

Neither actually WORK any better than the other in the real world, it all comes down to maintainance

Once a cartridge bearing wears out you replace it. That's it. Simple.
But replacing it costs a lot more than a bag of bearings and a spoonful of grease! 2 complete bearing changes in a typical cartridge hub will cost more than a reasonable quality new C&C hub.....

Yes, C&C requires a more maintainance, but it's just as fast to do as replacing a set of cartridges if you are a reasonable mechanic, and cheaper.

If you're the sort of person who doesn't bother with maintainance, you'll love cartridge bearings. If you either do do your maintainace regularly, or you're on a budget, you'll love C&C

I'm quite hard on hubs, wheels in general in fact, and neither one nor the other lasts any longer for me. I've destroyed a Hope XC hub (their best hub IMO) in 4 years. Destroyed as in too worn and broken to repair. Yet a Deore hub will last me just as long and cost less to run.

If I was leaving for a round the world tour next week, what hubs would I use? Shimano XT, no question.

If I was building a general MTB for trail riding, what hubs would I use? Whatever I could get that worked at the right price*, as I always do.

If I was building a dream bike from scratch, what hubs would I use? Royce, no question.

Horses for courses, but never assume that one is any better than the other.... 🙂

--------------------
* Currently that's DT Swiss 240s. The complte pair, handbuilt by me, with Mavic 717s, DT DB spokes and 15mm front/QR rear hubs cost me £175. The only used part (And still most expensive at £70) was the rear hub.
Yep. That's right. 2 rims, 64 spokes and a DT front hub, all brand spanking new for £105 🙂

Actually, other manufactueres use cartridge bearings becaue although they have the capabality to knock up an aluminium alloy hub on their CNC machines (who doesn't?), they don't have the capabilities to mass produce affordale precison bearings and have to source them elsewhere...hence cartridge bearings.

see my asterisk... in that manufactuers case I guess cost and their existing tooling capability have a big impact on what they consider 'best', if 'best' to them is the cheapest and easiest way to make hubs with their name on then cartridge is the 'best' solution for them.

Cannot be arsed!

The reason is down to the lateral forces on the bearings.
With cartridge there is no give as such so inevitablely ruining bearings over (which can be a very quick) time.
Shimano have obviously spent time and money testing to come to the conclusion that Cup and Cone is better.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/grease-nipple-xt-hubs

still running strong. Cheaper than Hope, easier to service than Hope.

I recently serviced a a work colleagues front hub because it was "wobbly". There was the grand total of 8 ball bearings in the front hub, 4 each side.!!! 😯

With cartridge there is no give as such so inevitablely ruining bearings over (which can be a very quick) time.

Sorry what? This makes no sense at all. There's no give in either, or you'd have no wheel stability.

Likewise, neither race should give in any direction and since the cart bearings are deep groove ball bearings the only real difference is that cup and cone are effectively pre-loaded against the opposing side, whereas cart bearigns don't need that. It means that cup n cone require careful maintenance and when they fail (seals, bearings or cones) they can cause more damage to an integral part of the hub. When cart bearigns fail you just pop them out. And one can fail without destroying the rigidity of the structure entirely, not that it really matters in use.

Personally I can't be bothered with bearing maintenance - they're consumable, replaceable and cheap - there's no point in spending ages with a tooth brush, grease and cone spanners when a quick tap in and out is all that is needed on most cart systems.

Campagnolo use them too! And they're even easier to adjust than Shimano.
Personally I have C and C on my road bike Zonda wheelset and Hope cartridges on my mountain bikes. I'm not sure that I think one is better than the other though - both are hassle free and work well.

Sealed bearing hubs suit those that don't have the need to fiddle much.
Out of all the stuff I have my 5 year old shimano road hubs are by far the most free runnning of any I have.
But the last few mtb wheels I've got have all been hope or stans hubs because I can change the axle to suit what I need

Individual data points are pointless, to prove it all of my shimano wheels are fairly high resistance and my hope hubs are by far the most free running 🙂

I find the 20mm shimano hubs to be a bitch to set properly.The 31mm cone wrench is bloody expensive as well.
the new xt rear is a bit more fiddly to set up.as is the rear DA
the older/cheaper shimano hubs I have (plus ft DA) are so easy to set up perfectly.
I.e. so that the slight slack is taken up by the compression of the QR.can't do that with cartridge.
However,I was reading about the Maxicar hubs used on herse bicycles the other day.original cartridge bearings have lasted 40+ years.
mind you.I've got a 1973 bianchi that I'm pretty sure is still on it's original bearings.
overhauling the HS was a bitch.there's hundreds (well...) of tiny bb that make the job really fiddly.

I have hope pro2 on another wheelset and They sound great,but don't roll quite as nicely.
Though it's not really a concern off road.

plus they're more expensive than xt.

Cup and cone is cheap to service I like that. I don't like the weight though. Both types of bearings work well and one ios not better than the other because you have to define better first and almost every poster so far has a different opinion on better.

Those who say cup and cone do not spin freely have never had a campy record hub then.

Those who say cup and cone do not spin freely have never [s]had a campy record hub then[/s] set them up correctly.

FTFY

Cup and cone is cheap to service I like that

Hope rear for under £20 of bearings and in a under an hour - cheap enough and easy enough for me.

Fronts are even simpler. After sitting on the floor of a French bike shop with a pack of balls, dome grease and cone spanners trying to get the loading on a shimano front right it was hope all the way.

I seem to recall that when they launched saint they had C+C and sealed cartridge in there

I like the idea that C&C can be adjusted from day one. With bearings it's either new and A1 or worn. Does that make sense?
With C&C I can tweek them just months into use. With bearings I just have to accept that I'll be riding worn items until I bin them.

I also read that some teams oiled their C&Cs for less friction.

I like the idea that C&C can be adjusted from day one. With bearings it's either new and A1 or worn. Does that make sense?

It makes sense, but only if the cartridge bearings degrades quickly. Mine generally last a long time without developing any play. (fronts get changed very rarely, rears 18months ish depending on the riding and conditions.
I would normally prefer to ride my bike than fiddle with it.
Horses for Courses as they say but for anything involving mud, wet and crap sealed ones win for me.

With old Campag C AND C hubs if the bearing surface died in the hub it was replaceable

I'm not sure Shimano are that bothered about maintenance, friction comparisons, spanners, etc. I suspect that its more to do with economics. Shimano sell [b]X[/b] number of wheel sets with CnC hubs, so why change and re-invent their wheels ?. If sales completely collapsed and if Shimano attributed that drop in sales to not having CB hubs. Then I guess someone in Japan would have to face the decision of either ending wheel manufacture or switching to CB hubs.

Just a thought.

Edric - possible with shimano also.

Dura ace wheelsets for racing and dry miles, cartridge for the wet, training, commuting and on the mtb is my general rule of thumb. Works for me, mainly as i've decided that's what i'm happy with, and i've always had a soft spot for dura ace.

new dura ace has replaceable cups now too.

harking back to the guy who was sat on a french bike shop floor, it is nigh on impossible to properly adjust c+c hubs without an axle clamp and vice. small adjustments aren't simple unless the axle is static.

Slight digression-

I need to replace a lost cone on a no name mtb hub. Does anyone know a shop that holds a good stock?

Cheers

Hope rear for under £20 of bearings and in a under an hour - cheap enough and easy enough for me.

Shimano rear, 50 pence and done in 20 mins, a complete Deore rear hub for £24......XT for £40...... Please refer to my earlier comment on bearing prices! 🙂
(to be fair, an hour for Hope bearings is slooooow)

Slight digression-
I need to replace a lost cone on a no name mtb hub. Does anyone know a shop that holds a good stock?
Cheers

Don't even TRY getting one online! Go to your LBS and see what they have, or see what your mates have lying around. I've got all sorts of hub spares in my toolbox from various places, but there's no way I could tell if any would fit without the wheel in my hand.
You might find new cones will be a different size or design and you'll have to faff with spacers or swap seals to get it to work, but it should be doable 🙂
I once transplanted the entire guts of an XT hub into a Deore, freehub, axle, cones, spacers, seals, the lot.

One of my friends rode track internationally, and his front hub was C&C, with oil instead of grease, and one ball bearing removed. You could spin the wheel slowly and hear the tick as the balls slipped around into the empty space, and the wheel spun forever.

This ^^ was a common thing to do.

I thought there was a significant difference in the rolling resistance between loose ball and cartridge bearings in favour of loose ball to the tune of 1/5th of the rolling resistance.

Shimano rear, 50 pence and done in 20 mins, a complete Deore rear hub for £24......XT for £40...... Please refer to my earlier comment on bearing prices!
(to be fair, an hour for Hope bearings is slooooow)

Yep Under £20 have done it for less but never 50p, however as I don't do this very often it's not really an issue.
Again the UNDER and hour thing was allowing for much arsing round with the wrong tools and a couple of beers - best was about 15mins

As for just throwing away the cheap hubs, great just add in new nipples if your lucky of new spokes if the flange has changed.

Still each to their own

As for just throwing away the cheap hubs, great just add in new nipples if your lucky of new spokes if the flange has changed.

Who said anything about throwing them away? It was just a price comparison. FWIW an XT would probably out last just about anything for me. I can make a Deore last as long as a Hope XC and still be as good as new. If I had the pics I'd show you what the 4 year old Deore cups were like on a bike I sold a couple of years ago. They were immaculate. (that was the one with the XT innards) 🙂

fair enough, I have messed round with C+C just CBA really. My hubs range from 1st year ProII through to current. All working fine must be somewhere near p/mile now.

Still never get me back to C+C though

(and they don't click nice...)

Shimano rear, 50 pence and done in 20 mins, a complete Deore rear hub for £24......XT for £40...... Please refer to my earlier comment on bearing prices!

Personally last time I replaced my Hope bearings (which was after I noticed a slight knocking after 7 years of use) I did so for £2 in 15 minutes.

Sure they were not top quality bearings but they're not dead 4 scottish winters later and I call that good value.

You still have to bin the bearings on C+C hubs, just not the races. If the races go, you have to bin the hub, which isn't exactly sustainable economical cycling is it?

I can make a Deore last as long as a Hope XC and still be as good as new.

A cartridge bearing hub has an infinite lifespan, as long as you don't rip the flange off. A C+C hub does not, because the races will wear eventually.

As for 50p vs £20 - £20 is for a complete rear hub set isn't it? That would include freehub bearings too, would it not? A complete shimano hub service is never 50p. Especially as you're not supposed to be able to change the freehub bearings afaik (and it is a fiddle even if you manage it), you're meant to buy a new one. Which is about £120 for XTR (comparable to Hope in terms of weight and price of hub, last time I looked anyway).

The Hopes on my 5 are perfect 5 years on, btw. As are my XTRs, but they are on my race bike which does very few miles so I'd expect them to be.

Oh and in Hope hubs the freehub is supported by the main axle, not so on Shimano, which is why I needed a new one - it got crushed out of shape under high torque.

I think the main reason is free running of hubs. My XTRs do indeed run very freely indeed, however this is of dubious benefit in actual racing. I got them because they were (paradoxically) cheaper than the other alternatives.

And I dunno why you'd think it's easier to service C+C hubs. It's a fine art adjusting bearings, whereas replacing the cartridge bearings on Hope hubs just requires a hammer, a drift and a bit of wood. And very little finesse.

You still have to bin the bearings on C+C hubs, just not the races. If the races go, you have to bin the hub,

So? I binned a Hope XC after 4 years during which it snapped 2 axles, had the pawls replaced (possibly twice, I forget now) and when the third axle snapped it jammed the pawls into the freehub ratchet and ripped it to shreds.
To be fair, I always thought that particular one was a dodgy hub and the XC on my Pitch has been perfect.

As for 50p vs £20 - £20 is for a complete rear hub set isn't it? That would include freehub bearings too, would it not? A complete shimano hub service is never 50p. Especially as you're not supposed to be able to change the freehub bearings afaik, you're meant to buy a new one. Which is about £120 for XTR (comparable to Hope in terms of weight and price of hub, last time I looked anyway).

OK, let's rip this to shreds...
Yes that would include freehub bearings, but not the freehub itself
Yes a Shimano hub service is 50p. That's the cost of the bearings. Maybe £1 if you throw the rest of the bag of bearings away. Plus a spoonful of grease, which I'd use on a cartridge hub as well.

Anything more isn't a service is it? It's repair.

And why are you quoting £120 for XTR? Who mentioned that? Only you to try and make it seem expensive!
Do Hope make a cheaper hub? No. Something comparable to Deore? No. So they will always be more expensive

As I already said, there's advantages to both types, but c&c hubs are waaaaaay cheaper to buy and run than cartridge hubs (bad luck and ham fistedness aside)

And there's no art to adjusting C&C hubs. All you need is a little mechanical aptitude. 🙂

If the races go, you have to bin the hub

Wrong, sorry.

And why are you quoting £120 for XTR?

I think XTR is comparable to Hope in terms of cost, weight and perceived 'kit level' so to speak.

Adjusting cup and cone does take significantly more skill than replacing cartridge bearings. I've done it many times, I'm sure you have too, but it's still a non-trivial skill.

I don't want to argue 50p vs £5 every 5 years though. Not a significant outlay in the running of bikes. They are both cheap.

I don't worry much about either kind of hub, they both work. The reason I bought XTR was cos they were cheap at the time, and something I like about them is their free running and the centrelock discs.

That's about it, really!

Cynic - replaceable races? And don't be so confrontational please 🙂

if you wear the races on c+c hubs they're OK.

If you murder then races then the hub IS dead.

No matter what you do, if the cups are scarred then the hub will run rough or with play.

Yes by wear I mean wear out ie pitting etc. As happens when you get water and grit in there.

I think Xt compares to hope.but with xtr prices.
1.You can get a lx hub from germany for half the cost of the bearings in a hope.
just exchange the internals if you're having trouble finding the races.SJS have a good selection of races,btw.
2-Mathew,if you use the sheldon method you can adjust the hubs perfectly in with just 2 cone spanners.in about a minute.It's so easy it beggars belief.
3.I have some mavic classic hubs with adjustable cartridge bearings,they roll as smoothy as the DA/deore/Xt/Lx hubs I have.
But honestly.Deore works really well if you bother to do some maintenance.Even if you just buy replacement hubs and swap out the internals it works out cheaper.Only bad thing is the engagement.
I do notice a diff between 36 points of the DA(new)/Xt an d the 48 of the hope SS Hub.
And even more so between the 36 and the 18 points of the deore / lx.

I think surly does adjustable cartridge bearing hubs.Not too expensive,about xt price.
I know the WI hubs I have yet to build up have adjustable cartridge bearings.

I really think it's one variable.I ride in really dry conditions,like to maintain my own stuff.
If I rode in wet conditions I'd probably weigh up the time/cost equation differently.

I have hopes and I'm glad I bought them.Might buy some more.Shimano hubs are better vfm though.

Yes, replaceable races. Like old campag. Apologies for tone, I get fed up with the anti shimano/hope apologist agenda on here.

Wear on cones and cups does not nec mean the hub won't run perfectly smoothly, but pitting does (until replacement of parts).

Al-it's just people trying to justify their purchase.
There's no need,really.

I justified my purchase by saying they were cheaper 🙂

It might also be that the bearings on a Shimano hub support the axle near to it's ends. The bearings on a Hope supoort the axle at the non diveside end and in the middle of the hub with the freehub just spining on the axle.

The downside of Shimano hubs for me is that the freehubs alway end up full of gunge and sounding like a cemment mixer.

E - I know.

It does give me a giggle that some people adopt such strident positions which they then defend so personally.

bruce-Might try the freehub buddy from morningstar.
I'll get one next month and report back,been meaning to for ages.

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Changing the races is possible in a Shimano hub- or at least was, haven't done a recent one. Just needs a slightly bigger hammer than Hope cartridges.

I've never had any issues with shimano hubs from a sealing point of view. Only problem I had is not tightening the locknut properly

I get fed up with the anti shimano/hope apologist agenda on here.

-it's just people trying to justify their purchase.

Just for balance...

My Mavic hubs spacked in basically no time at all. Think they're cartridge. Can't even service them without taking to a specialist dealer. Need new everything apart from the hub shells. Bent axle, knackered freehub, bearings, the lot.

A cartridge bearing hub has an infinite lifespan, as long as you don't rip the flange off.

ROFL at arguing about 50p vs £20 maintenance once every 2 years on a 2 grand bike, with both taking about an hour with a beer/tea.

My 1989 road bike has had hub maintenance maybe about 4 times.
My 1996 MTB probably about 2x
Contemplating opening up my XT hubs soon, just because (which are a fraction of the price of Hope, like less than 1/4 of the price - can replace the entire hubs 3x and still be quids in over Hope)
Binned my Mavics.

I have Hope and Shimano
I use the Shimano on my SS winter bike so they get the worst treatment - no issues with them and just a clean and a re-grease every year - which is what I would do with any serviceable/maintainable part anyway.