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oh how I miss it 🙁 Was named The Werewolf Slayer by a guy in Whistler (silver bullit) 😆 didn't actually climb too badly considering the weight and seat angle.
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If anyone has, or knows of one, in medium/polished going for cheap please let me know.
Hob Nob.They are overpriced for a mass produced far eastern frame whether you like it or not.
And if any product cost twice as much as a vitually identical one, then it's overpriced.
Whether you are prepared to stump up the snob tax for the name on the more expensive one is up to you.Just don't get upset when someone points it out.
Aren't humans 98% the same as chimps/apes/cuttlefish, genetically speaking? It's just that other 2% that makes all the difference?
it's the same (bear with me....) with, for example, an SC and (insert other premium, but less expensive brand) frame. You're paying for the 2% that makes the difference.
I have had 2 Santa Cruz, a superlight about 10 yrs ago and more recently a Nickel. I must admit the paint job on the Nickel was terrible. The paint chipped really easy. So sold it on, now own a very nice anodised Rose Granite Chief.
Would i have another....Hell Yeah, the new Chameleon looks brilliant, but I would only get one in anodised.
Rick, do you think the big boys spend less on r&d than SC?
Yet they can build a frame equally as complex as an SC, add components and sell a full bike for not much more than the SC frame.
Canyon, Boardman etc do it for even less.
The brands you mention are equally overpriced and appeal to the same demographic.
Tom, which 2% is it?
And why is it so expensive?
Tom, which 2% is it?
And why is it so expensive?
existentialism, language, logic, ratio... oh right, bikes.
It's not one think you could put your finger on, it's just everything is a little bit nicer, so lots of little things adding up to make the whole experience, IMO, worth it.
A better analogy might be first class vs cattle class on a flight. you still get there just as quick, its just those at the front have a nicer time doing it, for many many more moneyz.
Rick, do you think the big boys spend less on r&d than SC?Yet they can build a frame equally as complex as an SC, add components and sell a full bike for not much more than the SC frame.
Who does that then? Comparable Specialized's, Giants, Trek's etc arn't a large margin cheaper?
Canyon, Boardman etc do it for even less.
Ah. Well, without being blunt, of course the likes of Canyon do. When you remove a distributor and retailer out of the equation, what do you expect? Do you honesty think if Canyon operated the same distribution model as Santa Cruz do, their bikes would still be the same good value option they currently are?
Giant Trances start at £1300.
🙂
Full bike.
How does the frame materially differ from the equivalent SC that would justify the difference?
In a cold, hard, only the numbers matter kind of a way, probably very little, save for a bit of economies of scale from one of the worlds largest bike manufacturers.
But, more subjectively, I don't [i]want[/i] one. Like a supercar buyer doesn't [i]want[/i] a Nissan GTR, despite comparable performance to his Ferrari, for much less money
Giant Trances start at £1300.Full bike.
How does the frame materially differ from the equivalent SC that would justify the difference?
Given the wide difference in just about every part of the frame spec, there's no SC equivalent.
Compare like with like. A Santa Cruz with VPP suspension vs Intense with VPP suspension. Similar frame prices. Similar rides.
So how much is a new Heckler frame then?
And Tom H, I'm confused now.
Would you still pay twice as much for an SC rather than a half price Decathlon if both were identical?
Giant Trances start at £1300.
For a carbon one? Or are you selectively avoiding the points people keep making? The latter it would seem.
Those guys at YT, Canyon, Boardman, Rose are SUCH assholes, I mean they are literally milking the poor buying public, when you can buy a full suspension bike from Asda for £159.97. It's got 21 gears & everything 🙄
http://direct.asda.com/Boss-Stealth-Mens-Mountain-Bike---26-inch-Wheels/000975461,default,pd.html
I mean it looks like a bike & has bouncy bits at the front and the back, anything else is such an unnecessary vanity exercise, right?
Straw Man.
So what are the material, design and geo differences against a major manufacturer frame, say the Trance, that make an SC aluminium frames so much more expensive?
Those guys at YT, Canyon, Boardman, Rose are SUCH assholes, I mean they are literally milking the poor buying public, when you can buy a full suspension bike from Asda for £159.97. It's got 21 gears & everything
Bloody hell, mines only got 11! 😯
So you're happy to pay for the name then Tom?
🙂
Nowt wrong with that.
And admitting it is the first step to recovery....
Straw Man.So what are the material, design and geo differences against a major manufacturer frame, say the Trance, that make an SC aluminium frames so much more expensive?
Hardly. You've tried comparing 2 entirely separate business models (distribution network & retail Vs Direct sale) to try & justify yourself, to using the "they look the same, yet it costs twice as much, therefore it's a ripoff". Why not use the Asda example. They still both look like bikes, yet you could by 15 of those for one carbon Santa Cruz frame! The outrage!
I would suggest the cost difference between the Giant and the Santa Cruz probably has something to do with economies of scale. I expect Giant sell ten times as many £1300 Trances than the entire Santa Cruz production line over a 12 month period.
Not to mention they are targeting entirely different markets.
Nothing to do with the name. Like I said, 'all things being equal'. That includes things like aesthetics, warranty, great reviews, a race team using them etc etc not just the head angle.
The markets they are targeting is irrelevant.
We're comparing frames, not target buyers.
🙂
And no one is talking about ASDA bikes but you.
Not a valid comparison.
So how do the distribution costs justify the price differences?
Do you know?
I don't.
Tom - as those conditions are basically unique, I'll take that as a 'no'!
Not a valid comparison.
Hasn't stopped you so far!
This has turned into a bit of a sit back and eat some popcorn thread.
As for people who are comparing a Giant Trance to a Santa Cruz (Bronson I guess would be comparable), firstly while I like my Trance 27.5, the paint is stupidly thin, and compared to a Bronson ALU the trance isn't in the same league for rigidity (rear end of the trance does flex when you start pushing it). So while the Trance is great value for money a Bronson ALU is indeed stronger/stiffer.
As some people have mentioned carbon Santa Cruz's (which are supposedly the best carbon in business), for comparison a carbon trance ranges from £2.7k-£5.5k.
What's not valid (volume and distribution aside) between a cost comparison between a Trance and a Heckler?
And gaz, the fact you prefer one over the other is irrelevant cost wise.
To answer your pre ninja edit question.
Intense tracer-last bike was an intense, wanted a change
Lapierre spicy team- massive delays, dealer never called me back after a short demo. Plus my feet are too big for the chain stays, shame as I really liked it. Interestingly, when built to the same spec, would be the same price as I paid for my 5010.
Orange five- nice bike to ride, but don't care for the looks.
Trek remedy and slash, could have had either of these at trade (worked for a dealer), but much like giants, don't excite me.
Tom, ta for the answer.
So it came down to excitement in the end?
Fair enough.
I edited because the ride is irrelevant if just comparing costs.
We're going round in circles now:
They are more expensive than other comparable frames.
The fact that some of those frames are mass market is neither here nor there - they cost the factory similar amounts to build.
No one seems to be able to justify the exorbitant UK pricing.
Rusty Spanner - MemberWhat's not valid (volume and distribution aside) between a cost comparison between a Trance and a Heckler?
Trance is a multi-link suspension design, which is why I compared it to a Bronson as it is also multi-link suspension design and similar travel.
A Heckler is a good comparison for an Orange 5 I would have thought.
Rusty Spanner - Member
...
And gaz, the fact you prefer one over the other is irrelevant cost wise.
I was trying to point out that, the Bronson while more expensive also seems to be stronger/stiffer (better made maybe?) so that extra money is getting you something more in that case.
Don't get me wrong I like my Trance (except for the Fox 32 evo's that it came with which were awful/completely rubbish), but I can also understand why people looking that kind of bike might want to spend more on something like a Santa Cruz Bronson, Yeti SB66 etc etc.
On a side note; I think the whole enduro thing is pushing manufacturers to make their bikes stronger and lighter, which is good for us.
Good points gaz.
But a 5 is another brand priced to attract those who value a certain indefinable something.
And UK built.
I like the bikes btw.
If Jungle would care to send me one for evaluation purposes, I'd be happy to oblige.
It worked when I had a pop a Privateer!
Don't know how do do the quote thing, but:
Giant own the factories where they build their frames. I imagine that would make it cheaper for them to make their bikes. They also build bikes for other companies which provides another source of income, allowing them to sell their frames at a more competitive price and still make huge profits.
This doesn't answer the question, 'why are they so expensive in the uk?' Perhaps they are sufficiently better (in the areas pointed out above) to justify the extra money to people who care/can afford it. Supply is limited, too. There are for fewer of SC bikes available to jungle than comparable Giants to Giant dealers.
I own a tallboy, I bought it in Canada, when I was living there. SC bikes cost more in Canada than USA as a result of import duties and what have you. I now live in the USA, but I have been so impressed with the bike that I'm pleased I've owned it for as long as I have. My first 29er and I can't believe how good it is. Not tried other 29ers, however.
If people want an SC but don't want to pay uk prices, import one from USA. I don't think you'd be disappointed with your purchase. Or buy something else.
Rick, do you think the big boys spend less on r&d than SC?Yet they can build a frame equally as complex as an SC, add components and sell a full bike for not much more than the SC frame.
Canyon, Boardman etc do it for even less.
State who you are talking about? Who are these "big boys"?
Canyon can be discounted straight away, you are comparing apples and oranges or don't you understand the concept of direct selling?
Top line Specialized enduro frame which I would compare with a carbon nomad frame:
More expensive than any SC frame bar a V10.
Interesting. Going back to the start, I do t see SC as a boutique brand these days, more like a small mainstream brand.i remember a friend getting one of the first Chameleons and it seemed pretty special compared to our Konas and similar. I think the boutique image came from a time when far Eastern made frames were seen as inferior compared to US made stuff. And yet the likes of Spesh jobbing out cheap, far eastern frames can build straight ones which is more than can said for Intense!
With regards to price, wha hasn't been mentioned is that all frames are expensive. It wasn't that long ago that a Heckler was less than a grand. When I was looking for a new frame (160mm frame) there event many frames in the £1,500 range...it pretty much came down to my a Rune or a Covert. The former being compatible to a SC in my eyes...like a VPP design, small company etc but a bit cheaper fir whatever reason.
I like the look of their bikes (I've had three Chameleons, all of which were great) but they're a bit pricey for me. I also struggle with their sizing and short top tubes but they seem to have sorted that in their newest bikes. They also get really good reviews which is going to increase their sales and a high profile team with UK riders. Ultimately, they're great looking bikes so I'm not surprised they're popular....a good looking product with a good brand / image will always sell.
I don't but I to the stereotypes because I see loads of Fives at trail centres too.
Doesn't a Santa Cruz/Jungle bashing thread get rolled out every 6 months or so to no conclusion!?
Coz they are the Bollox! and I don't own a Audi. Yet. 😉
Don't get an Audi. Get a BMW. They are more boutique they also ride and handle better. They will cost you a bit more though.
Why isn't there a string of previous owners on here telling us all about the problems they had with their frames, Jungle and SC? Isn't that the normal pattern of these things?
When The Magnum ice cream was brought to market a core part of the marketing strategy was to be sure it cost at least twice as much as the competition. This ensured it was positioned as a luxury product and they sold in their millions, it was a little bit of luxury we could all afford. Marketing is like that and pricing and marketing go hand in hand. The fact that people complain at the price of Santa Cruz bikes will oddly have the effect of driving more sales in the target demographic, it's the percieved exculsivity you're buying as well as the actual product. They are nowhere near the size of Gaint, Specialized, Cannondale etc etc, I expect they make considerably more per unit than those companies because their marketing is excellent. Having said all that they are still the nuts and I'll buy another when this one breaks. Mostly because they ride right, they look good and I'm shallow. Why Omega and not Timex, why iphone not nokia etc etc etc. You buy the package, brand, product and the lifestyle. Gaint, specialised and the rest dont have it. You can buy [i]them[/i] anywhere.
😀
Which is what I said 2 pages ago - snob tax!
Not heard from Jungle about my [s]bribe[/s] demo bike yet though.
it's the perceived exclusivity you're buying
That was the reason for the thread really. They're sold as if they are exclusive, but they're not exclusive, it's like buying a Porsche, because you can afford it, and it feels a bit exclusive - then you drive to Tesco to see loads of other people have parked up in one.
I'd feel just a little bit gutted and die a little inside.
But they are exclusive as most people won't drop the money. Yeah there are a few about but not that many.
Really?
Much more likely to see an SC or an Orange round here than a Canyon or Boardman.
Both common as muck, tbh.
😉
Tweed Valley wise, there's loads of new Santa Cruzes around. It's a bit odd, as the local shops don't sell Santa Cruz - it's Trek or Orange really.
I rarely see a Five about on the trails.
That was the reason for the thread really. They're sold as if they are exclusive, but they're not exclusive
Considering the numbers they sell, compared to the big brands, they are pretty exclusive.
I've just had a mental tot up, of the people I ride with on a regular basis & the others who pop in & out of the riding group, there isn't one Santa Cruz & these are people who ride up at the famous Santa Cruz hot spot in the North Downs.
I imagine if you brand spotted at the start of a well used trail, they would be in a tiny minority overall. Is it because you notice them over the hoards of other brand bikes? I don't know.
They plant the seed early on, newcomers see them and go how much? Go buy a Boardman and aspire to upgrade generating a sale once the saps saved enough hard earned ,they can actually be bought rather than waiting a quarter of a year to maybe a year ,and Tha fat middle aged desk jockey sees Steve peat is 40 and know that if they spend enough money they will be able to ride their wc frame down the woods like a true pro then complain about dogshit in bags on a forum with other true SC elites later that day
The fact they break too like every other bike can is overlooked and that never sees the light of day
I have a Santa Cruz,I'm not a big spender,well quite the opposite really,you never hear of "there's a crack in my Santa Cruz frame" thread unlike most of the top brands,I didn't buy the full bike,I built it up over time,they are a great bike to ride,I pondered cannyon and gitant trance before deciding for my superlight,the name Santa Cruz doesn't mean much to me but the bike itself suits me down to the ground.
you never hear of "there's a crack in my Santa Cruz frame" thread
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cracked-sc-trc-tallboy-carbon-frames
Look at all those unhappy owners.....
scotroutes - Member
Why isn't there a string of previous owners on here telling us all about the problems they had with their frames, Jungle and SC? Isn't that the normal pattern of these things?
Because Jungle / SC after sales are second to none in my experience, with only Hope Tech coming a close second.
Santa Cruz, Yeti, Intense, Pivot, Jones, Ibis etc are not "too expensive", that's a naive way to look at it. If they were overpriced compared with their desirability and quality they simply wouldn't sell (particularly in countries like the UK where import duties inflate the price further. They are more expensive than some of the competition, but economics and psychology would state that the perceived satisfaction and enjoyment gained from having luxury/boutique bikes makes the buying cost seem reasonable (especially when available on interest-free monthly schemes which makes them accessible to the masses.)
In my local riding group of around 20 when we're all out to play there are plenty of bikes in this category - Yeti 2, SC 2, Ibis 2, Jones 1, Whyte 2, as well as a lot of high end Specialized and Giants which both have main dealers in the town, and some of the guys riding steel HT's such as Cotics and Genesis. It really doesn't matter, you make your choice and you ride. Most riders wouldn't swap there pride and joy for a Decathlon bike.
The only place I've seen lots of Santa Cruz's is where the main dealer in that area sells them, e.g. Holmbury and Leith Hill in the Surrey Hills, and also at places like Glyncorrag / Afan where they have a demo/hire fleet of SC's.