[Closed] Why are there so many Santa Cruz bikes about at the moment?

Bigger fool orange IMHO.

In actual fact I'm not sure why I even quoted about Orange, you cannot compare a Orange with anything made by SC. Its like comparing a DT240s or a Chris King hub to a hope one.

I get the feeling that Orange don't make their bikes in the UK to keep the costs down......

They produce half of the bikes outside of the UK anyway......

Where are the "Far Eastern" Santa Cruzes made?

Slag off Orange all you like but compare the angles on the 5-29er with the Tallboy LT. I will never go near a short and steep bike again; I need all the skill compensation I can get!

Honestly quoting static angles on a full sus is a waste of time, they all sit and ride differently, a mate (serial bike swapper) took a solo out and was worried about the head angle until he rode it then realised it just worked.

Anyway if you think they are popular in the UK head to NZ, was over in Rotorua where Blur LT's and Nomad Mk2's ruled the trails (all carbon) this year it's the Bronson and Solo round every bend and the local shop had 3 staff 650 Nomads, 7 being built and a 10 bike waiting list. I reckon at least 80% of those out on them were very serious riders and seriously quick. So they seem to be a default choice for those who can ride 😉

Loving the VPP setup, the common sense of retaining the threaded BB at least until PF works properly, grease ports on the bearings, lifetime bearing warranty, 5 year frame warranty, good customer service and a really nice looking bike.

As nice as the guys are at orange their a 1 trick pony in the FS department, not keen on single pivot (and paying a lot for it) then it's not for you.

suburbanreuben - Member
Where are the "Far Eastern" Santa Cruzes made?

Why are there so many Santa Cruz bikes about at the moment?

I know, right? Can't bloody move for them in my house!*

I reckon it's a combo of marketing (thru the sc syndicate, peaty doing that Scottish vid for the Solo etc), that those of us who have played on muddy bikes for the last 15+ years still see them as boutique exotica when in fact now they are probably as big and far reaching as traditionally more mass market brand. The price helps I think, folk thinking that you get what you pay for, so a £4k+ base model or £3k frame on some model must be special... It could also be that they are really bloody good bikes that, while expensive, will last or are backed up by a bullet proof warranty.

*you didn't think I was joking, did you? 😉

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[url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/92694523@N06/14460462262/ ]image[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/92694523@N06/ ]tom.howard.562[/url], on Flickr

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Me too tom
[url= https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3666/12215576876_c3fbb3c32d_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3666/12215576876_c3fbb3c32d_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/jBs2qq ]2014-01-29 15.12.10[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people// ]Mike Smith 79[/url], on Flickr

I really really regret selling my old Bullit. Shouldve kept it. The geometry etc was outdated etc but it was such a fun bike to ride. Might buy another one when I can afford a full sus again. I like Santa Cruz bikes.

Obviously their bikes need to be decent, but a lot of people will be willing to pay extra for a bike/frame if they know the support/warranty is really good should they be unfortunate to need it. Now that they've updated their geometry more people are interested in their bikes.

The new nomad looks like a lot of fun.

If you ask people what's the best bike they've ever owned, I reckon Santa Cruz will be mentioned a lot. For every blinged out carbon nomad getting ridden round Llandegla car park by some Audi driving stroker, there's a battered Chameleon or 8 year old heckler still going strong.

Santa Cruz build brilliant bikes! That's why people buy'em

Expensive UK labour? How much do Fabricators earn?

SC etc- How much is import duties/tax, freight AND Distributor margin like Jungles? Kinda offsets Orange..

Made in China carbon. Nice frames and tight qc control but why the price..

Read in a bike mag-posh German carbon wheel company built a carbon road bike. Frame retails at 4k....designed an engineered in German..made in China. Made me laugh. It may be 'better' than some ali express £300 frames but how much so?

http://www.dutycalculator.com/
Easy to work out on retail comparison for example Bronson
$2900 USD (No sales tax etc.)
UK Price 1703 GBP (converted)
Duty 80.24
VAT 357.51
Landed Cost 2145.07 without shipping, packaging etc. Sana Cruz direct deal in the US so no need for a distributor margin (same as Orange & Hope in the UK) Equivalent Frame in the UK selling for 2600.
So the difference is 455 leaving shipping, demo fleet, advertising, support and profit.

buying decisions are always about more than just price. It's about value, especially with items that you keep for years. People obviously think the product is a good one.

There may be a percentage of buyers/golfers who are just taken in by the marketing aspect but the market is pretty robust I suspect, so if the product isn't good then it will be found out eventually.

I considered a Nomad but didn't like the curvy top tube... the latest versions are much better in this respect though compared to the early ones.

Not sure on that simple 'retail duty' bit

Import duty is 15% and there are additional anti-dumping duties on carbon bike frames manufactured in china

i was riding in Santa Cruz the other day, and everyone was on a santa cruz.

the riding out there is fully sick, by the way.

[quote> http://www.dutycalculator.com/
Easy to work out on retail comparison for example Bronson
$2900 USD (No sales tax etc.)
UK Price 1703 GBP (converted)
Duty 80.24
VAT 357.51
Landed Cost 2145.07 without shipping, packaging etc. Sana Cruz direct deal in the US so no need for a distributor margin (same as Orange & Hope in the UK) Equivalent Frame in the UK selling for 2600.
So the difference is 455 leaving shipping, demo fleet, advertising, support and profit.

Don't forget Jungle don't buy at retail. As a distributor they'll probably get it for 60% of retail, sell onto the shops who'll then add on their 15%. Distributor (volume) gets big slice. Shop = small slice.

Small import/distributor like Chumba wouldn't be able to negotiate much due to low volume sales at this end?

i was riding in Santa Cruz the other day, and everyone was on a santa cruz.

the riding out there is fully sick, by the way

This deserves a whole new post.

I both hate and love you. Man I'm jealous 🙂

bigrich - Member
i was riding in Santa Cruz the other day, and everyone was on a santa cruz.
the riding out there is fully sick, by the way.

Awesome isn't it! Also spotted loads of Specialized on the trails as well.

I miss my old Heckler and would have a new one in a heartbeat. I just think that they have positioned their company really well the last couple of years. As MTB has become a golf-like sport for middle-aged men, Santa Cruz is a company that isn't one of the big brands, but also doesn't take much effort to find if you're not inclined to spend hours parsing the internet-ramblings of other MTBers. They've done a good job of subtly marketing their bikes to the point that everyone was talking about the Bronson like it was [i]the[/i] enduro weapon, when enduro really blew up, despite there being hundreds of similar bikes (one of which is actually called Enduro). They're the BMWs of the bike world, which doesn't mean they're bad at all, just priced for a certain kind of buyer.

[quote=mikewsmith > http://www.dutycalculator.com/
Easy to work out on retail comparison for example Bronson
$2900 USD (No sales tax etc.)
But surely any buyer in the US would pay some sort of sales tax?

It is hora but as we don't know and wouldn't really shout about trade prices in a public forum assume your right but I still consider it a good price. I know what the Oz price list looks like and nothing looks like a complete rip off. If they had the scale or spec or giant then the margins would be tighter.

Sales tax in all states is different and paid at the end so never quoted in the US. Some states have none.

I used to have a 5

Now my only MTB is a Soul

If I came intro some cash I'd be buying a 5010, no doubt 🙂

Don't forget Jungle don't buy at retail. As a distributor they'll probably get it for 60% of retail, sell onto the shops who'll then add on their 15%. Distributor (volume) gets big slice. Shop = small slice.

I can assure you, using your example the retailer margin it's much higher than 15% and Jungle's is significantly lower than you suggest.

Also not sure how it works in the UK but here in Oz most "Off the Peg" builds come with not much left to do apart from attach bars and wheels, tighten and set-up. With the variety of build kits and the options (we can swap out anything and everything that is on a build list over here) it comes as a frame and a box is bits that you actually have to build from scratch.

I can assure you, using your example the retailer margin it's much higher than 15% and Jungle's is significantly lower than you suggest.

Unless you are both like Jungle/stiff then you are quids in!

Mikewsmith, a quick fag packet calc shows that, excluding sales taxes, and converted to uk pounds the bronson c Kashima costs, at retail, 1825 in oz, 1700 in the US and tahdaah, 2340 in the Uk.
The frame is also from a quick look, available discounted in both the US and Australia.

I don't really use trail centres too much, but I remember when you couldn't move in the lakes for Marin full sussers, and then again a few years later for Specialized. My guess is that SC are the brand at the mo.

Tbh i'm glad of it, i'll be happy to hoover up the £600 second hand frames in a few years time. I can snap them 3 times over and still be better off.

£2000+ for a new frame? They must be mad.

They're ridiculously expensive, therefore they must be the best and you'll look so cool with your carbon bike on top of your carbon enve wheels. £8000? Yes, but it's the best. Now look at me. I'm the best (well I think I am)...

Tbh i'm glad of it, i'll be happy to hoover up the £600 second hand frames in a few years time. I can snap them 3 times over and still be better off.

Me too. I always buy slightly older Santa Cruz's (currently on a 2011 Butcher).

Hora

Me too. I always buy slightly older Santa Cruz's (currently on a 2011 Butcher).

I'm on a £500 intense tracer... it snapped, £20 at the alloy fabs and it's back on the trails 😀

Watch it fold in half round hebden tomorrow 🙄

Watch it fold in half round hebden tomorrow

Then you can buy a 29'er and see the trails come alive. Win win! 😀

My almost 10 year old Blur LT is still going strong. The only bike out there I'd want to replace it with is a carbon Bronson

Amongst the guys that I ride with they are called "Mondeos" since they are so common.

Going back to the US/UK pricing..

I was talking to Ellsworth a few years ago. He was genuinely surprised at the prices the UK distributor was charging for his frames. Think he might have knocked up his prices to them from our conversation...

2003 Heckler still going strong, Purchased from Stif and was about £2600 new then with 5th Element, XTR chainset and gears, Hope Hubs, Fox Vanilla 125 RLC etc. Has survived all of the UK, Alps etc. as well as my crap riding / crashing and refuses to die. Come to think of it's only had a few bearing changes as well.

Looked at Santa Cruz a few years ago when buying a full sus 29er. Finished up with a Ventana and not regretted it, but even at the time was entertained by the fact that I could buy a frame from Ventana that was manufactured in house in California for two thirds of the price of a similar frame manufactured in the Far East by a company based about 150km from Ventana.

There has to be a significant element of paying for the badge and there is nothing wrong with that if you know that is what you are doing and feel happier for having done it. There are lots of other markets where that applies as well.

I've got a 2009 Superlight. Its a keeper. With a 120mm fork up front the geo is spot on for 95% of my riding. And its fast shoukd keep me from being big wheel curious for a while

I'm still amused by the fact that some people think a US manufactured frame will necessarily be better than one made in the Far East.

Can I just say "Lynskey"?

Funniest example of this I was was that [url= http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/a-nice-rad-hardtail-niners-purple-ros-9/ ]Niner ROS 9 [/url]frame recently. 900 quid for a steel hardtail where most comparable stuff is sub 500 quid (which is the [url= http://www.ninerbikes.com/ros9 ]US MSRP[/url].)

It does seem that the UK market has gone a bit crazy recently, the more they charge for their bikes the more people seem to want them. Most of the importers seem to be trying to out-do each other in how much they can get away with marking up their frames.

I was talking to Ellsworth a few years ago

Ellsworth are sold in REI in the US which as a massive outdoor activity chain is the equivalent of something like Blacks here, which would suggest they've lost their niche/exclusive image in their home market.

Im not an economist (INAE?) but I understand there is a theory of what the market will bear? I moved out to work in the US for a couple of years in '97, and went shopping for (amongst everything else) a motorbike. Triumphs (as with most things) cost the same in US$ there as they did back here in UK£, which meant Triumph cut crate them up, ship em 3000 miles, suffer import duties, sell them for about £2000 less and still make a worthwhile profit.

Many of the pimp US brands have had models available here for about half of retail (Ibis Mojos on clearance @2Pure, Turners @CRC, various Yetis at numerous outlets). The 2013 Patriot is currently available at a similar discount

http://www.bikeactive.com/orange-patriot-frame-c2x9604637

so theyre all "at it".

£895? Thats worthy of a PSA thread IMO.

I had a five for four years and enjoyed it , it did most things well and was a fun bike .When it got knackered I started looking at a new one and couldn't really see where the money was going for the price so looked for alternatives and found a blur. lt for a good price so tested it .It just felt very right and I found I climbing better ,descending better and having a go at stuff I had gibbed at before.Think it must be down to the VPP system but having ridden it for 18 months I wouldn't go back .

£895? Thats worthy of a PSA thread IMO.

lifted from another thread so wasnt going to steal that poster's "glory" (though this isnt HUKD...)