[Closed] Why are Canyon bikes so cheap and who is being exploited...

They are excellent bikes.

They cut out the distributor and the retailer.

Bike is sold by manufacturer to importer for £500
It's sold by importer to bike shop for £650
Its sold by bike shop to you for £1000
Canyon miss out the importer and lbs.
Even the likes of giant/trek/specialized who run their own uk distribution still have large premises and staff (rep,marketing,warranty,management) to pay for.And they have to do it in every territory.

Canyon must have higher customer service overheads than traditional brands, but it seems obvious where the saving comes.

Who do you think is being exploited, out of interest?

Also it's volume discounts on components..... Germany is a chuffing huge market in itself, would be interested to know their market share across Europe.

I've had two Canyon Strives, great bikes at half the price of the bigger brands with equivalent spec, some people even buy them for the bits and sell the frame on.

£200 difference doesn't sound enough to be honest.
Assuming that the extra £200 buys you local service from a shop you like.

No middle men, no demo, no bike shop to fix issues, no setup it's all cost cutting that means if you don't want it you don't need it

exploited

No ones being exploited?

[i]ex·ploit

verb

past tense: exploited; past participle: exploited

/ik?sploit/

make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).

"500 companies sprang up to exploit this new technology"

synonyms:

utilize, harness, use, make use of, turn/put to good use, make the most of, capitalize on, benefit from;

informalcash in on

"we should exploit this new technology"
use (a situation or person) in an unfair or selfish way.

"the company was exploiting a legal loophole"

benefit unfairly from the work of (someone), typically by overworking or underpaying them.

"making money does not always mean exploiting others"

synonyms:

take advantage of, abuse, impose on, treat unfairly, misuse, ill-treat;
[/i]

They've just removed a few links from the distribution chain, a bit like On-One/Planet-X. The dowside is if it goes wrong you have to box it up and wait for it to go to germany and back, rather than just walk into your LBS.

Assuming that the extra £200 buys you local service from a shop you like

Depends what kind of 'service' you need/want, if somethings broke then there's not much a shop can do other than send it back to the distributor, who might send it back to the manufacturer. Makes little difference whether you post it yourself to Canyon or the LBS posts it to the distributor. And minor stuff like setup they do do, and post the bikes out in some huge boxes with just the pedals to fit!

Where (IME) the direct sellers fall down is the inbetween stuff. I'm having some minor issues with a bike bike form a direct seller at the moment (headset won't stay tight), and LBS might have been able to fix it (my guess it the headtube needs facing) but now it has to go back to the bike company for isnpection/repair.

who is being exploited...

these chaps, that's who.

[img] [/img]

happy now?

No middle men, no demo, no bike shop to fix issues, no setup it's all cost cutting that means if you don't want it you don't need it

is this road bike by them any good?

love mine, comfy, quick, light and great handling what not to like. 🙂

[quote=Rorschach ]Bike is sold by manufacturer to importer for £500
It's sold by importer to bike shop for £650
Its sold by bike shop to you for £1000 😆
😆 😆

Yep - no-ones getting exploited (Except maybe me) with the Bird/Canyon model. Infact, like Canyon as we assemble here in the UK (Canyon in DE) then arguably we cut out some of the possible exploitation as you might see it as there isn't a generic bike assembly line somewhere in the far east that _could_ have some unsavory working conditions. Most bike co.s are based out of Taiwan, which has generally high standards of living and work environments across the board, whereas places like indonesia, china and Vietnam (where some brands are assembling) I am not so sure.... not saying its necessarily bad, just saying that our model (and Canyons) actually closes the loop a little more, with a tighter, more defined supply chain, likely raising the bar a little.

Same business model as YT. I purchased a tues pro recently and with the exchange rate it came to 2.5k. I am going to strip and sell my older dh bike and I don't think il be too far off 2.5k.

Where (IME) the direct sellers fall down is the inbetween stuff. I'm having some minor issues with a bike bike form a direct seller at the moment (headset won't stay tight), and LBS might have been able to fix it (my guess it the headtube needs facing) but now it has to go back to the bike company for isnpection/repair.

Not always. We pay your LBS to fix a bird if it goes wrong. Doesnt happen often but when it has we've been able to turn around forks/reverb replacements in under a week from report to fixed and back out on the trails. Your LBS would no doubt wait a week just to get an answer back from the manufacturer. Sometimes being direct will speed this kind of thing up not slow it down.

Same business model as YT. I purchased a tues pro recently and with the exchange rate it came to 2.5k. I am going to strip and sell my older dh bike and I don't think il be too far off 2.5k.

YT is slightly different as they manufacture in the 'traditional way' using Taiwan/wherever agents that produce the bike completely and box it up I believe. The net result meaning a little less flexibility in what and when you can launch, how many models you run etc. Hence why a Canyon (or indeed Bird) can run 7/8/9 fairly tightly priced lines on any given model where as YT has say 3. Its not necessarily a good or bad thing, just a thing.

Guard against the assumption that a higher means less exploitation. Very little of the purchase price actually gets through to the end of the chain, if the price is higher then more gets skimmed off beforehand.

Its stopping someone from making a large cut out of the supply chain.

Having hated a few bikes that people rave about I couldn't buy again without testing so that rules direct sales out for me however tempting the deals are.

OP, yes that is a very good bike. Got mine last summer and love it.
Watch the online size calculator though. Put my measurements in and it came back with a small. At 175cm this surprised me, so I compared it with my previous bike I knew fitted and others I'd been looking at and had tried for size. Went for the medium in the end and very glad I did.
Also, get the vcls seatpost upgrade and make sure you order a spare mech hanger as well just in case.

chestrockwell - Member

Having hated a few bikes that people rave about I couldn't buy again without testing so that rules direct sales out for me however tempting the deals are.

AlexSimon - Member

Assuming that the extra £200 buys you local service from a shop you like.

Don't disagree with the point but I've never had £200 worth of local service for a bike, never likely to need or want it. YMMV of course.

Well as long as they're not being assembled by a 6 year old kid in a factory in India or something like that 😀 . Joking aside, I'd like to be sure all staff workers involved are getting paid a fair wage. But if they are cutting costs by only leaving out the middle man and lbs, then there's probably more chance they are all in good working conditions etc. Don't have the conscience to buy a bike if workers involved are getting a crap wage.... same reason I'm wary of buying super cheap clothes.

How can a Canyon bike with Ultegra be about 200 quid cheaper than other brands?

Looks at Rose Bikes for similar prices.

They buy bulk, build them up in house and sell them direct.

Don't have the conscience to buy a bike if workers involved are getting a crap wage

Well as long as they're not being assembled by a 6 year old kid in a factory in India or something like that .

I don't know if they are or not, but if they are then likely the other bike for another two thousand quid is assembled in the same place at the same labour cost.

Don't buy from an lbs then!!

Touche!

Northwind - Member
Don't disagree with the point but I've never had £200 worth of local service for a bike, never likely to need or want it. YMMV of course.

Don't buy from an lbs then!!

Good point, well made.

I'd buy a Canyon. No other brand can get close to their offering in terms of value (and they're by no means poor frames either).

AlexSimon - Member

I definitely have from Tim at Sideways Cycles.
I haven't from any others though.

Hmm, I don't think I explained myself well. It's not a knock on LBSs, it's just that for big issues you've still got Canyon as support (and most warranty jobs will go back to the manufacturer regardless) and for little issues I'll do it myself. And £200 saving will go a long way in shop labour for anything else.

I've had way more than £200 worth of service from LBSs! But almost none of it the sort of thing you get for buying a new bike.

It's more like £2,000 for high-end MTBs though, tbh.

For me, the downside is a perhaps a lack of demo bikes. Besides that, I'd happily buy a Canyon et al.

Having people like Benpinnik (helpfully) stick their nose into a forum gives me a massive confidence boost. He may be a faceless STW'er, but it still gives me a feeling I'd be able to get in contact with a company or their rep. quickly and get an issue sorted.

I've seen the hassle and turn around time it took to get a Giant (rear dropouts were both bent) replaced. It was bought through an LBS. A current model. It still needed to be re-boxed, sent to someone, checked out, apology email sent, replacement sent out.... probably took no longer than an issue with a bought-direct bike.

I know I'll be looking at Rose or Canyon when I'm next splashing the cash.

Obviously, god does kill a kitten every time you buy something without going to your LBS, but eff the furry wee shites!

I'd buy a Canyon. No other brand can get close to their offering in terms of value (and they're by no means poor frames either).

TBH- I had a go on STW'er Scapegoats and within 10metres of swinging a leg over it I'd gone off a 2-3foot ledge without even thinking about it.

****ing ugly looking thing though and I like my bikes purr-retty 8)

**** ugly looking thing though and I like my bikes purr-retty

Not much wrong with those IMO.
Consider the competition;
[img] [/img]

[i]Germany is a chuffing huge market in itself, would be interested to know their market share across Europe.[/i]

I think it's Europe's biggest bike market

I'd buy a Canyon. No other brand can get close to their offering in terms of value (and they're by no means poor frames either).

Except Rose and the other brands mentioned on the thread 😉

**** ugly looking thing though and I like my bikes purr-retty

Purr-retty? That brown bike and the hideous yellow and black paint job? Beauty is indeed, in the eye of the beholder!

Except Rose and the other brands mentioned on the thread

Having people like Benpinnik (helpfully) stick their nose into a forum gives me a massive confidence boost. He may be a faceless STW'er, but it still gives me a feeling I'd be able to get in contact with a company or their rep. quickly and get an issue sorted

Thanks MCPH, the big difference I guess is our ability to make decisions without asking permission. Just this morning I had a call about a defective reverb. How does it get fixed?

1. Guy calls me up and explains the issue. Its something we know can happen occasionally.
2. We agree he's happy to do the swap himself (otherwise I'd get an LBS close to him to do it).
3. This afternoon I will box up a new reverb for him. It will leave via UPS tomorrow.
4. He gets reverb on Monday. Fits the new post (its connectamajig so straight forward enough).
5. He boxes old post in box I sent him, applies the return label we also sent, and drops it off at a UPS point near him when he's ready. No pressure to do it there and then, just when he's happy its resolved his issue.

Thats it. No-one had to wait for a decision from a manufacturer or otherwise, which means he gets back out asap with minimum fuss. I then have to deal with SRAM etc. but thats fine. I don't want our customers to be waiting for us to deal with our suppliers when there's an issue, its our problem to resolve not someone else's.

I can understand that an LBS wont have a warehouse full of parts like I do, so its a big gamble for them to replace on 'promise', but thats not an issue for us. Sometimes direct can work better that way I think.

[i]Well as long as they're not being assembled by a 6 year old kid in a factory in India or something like that[/i]

No, but the factory could easily have been built with bricks made by a child in 'slavery'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25556965

It will leave via UPS tomorrow

You're only fail there Ben! Get on DPD, they are awesome.

Yep. We give the Indian Government 1/2billion a year in aid. So their governrmt can have their space mission.

Whose fault is Indians spending and governemt?

THEIRS.

Your LBS would no doubt wait a week just to get an answer back from the manufacturer.

Thats it. No-one had to wait for a decision from a manufacturer or otherwise, which means he gets back out asap with minimum fuss.

If an LBS is waiting a week to get an answer, they're doing something wrong. We'd expect to resolve things at least for a customer at least as quickly as you have in the example above. We might have the necessary part in stock, in which case we'd sort them out there and then.

And of course your customer has had to wait for a decision from the manufacturer - that's you. It's just that you've made that decision very quickly and given great customer service. Lots of LBS's, and the manufacturers we/they work with, also do that. I'm not sure this is a reason to choose one distribution model vs the other. There are good direct sellers and bad ones, good LBSs and bad ones, good manufacturers who sell through the trade - and bad ones.

One distinct advantage in using an LBS is that if the manufacturer is giving grief, an LBS has a bit more clout and better connections than your average end user and can usually help resolve things. That's not necessary when a manufacturer does provide excellent service as in this example, but it can help a great deal in the occasional circumstance when things don't go so well.

Pros and cons with both models but I think suggesting that buying direct gets you better service is a bit disingenuous IMHO.

Pros and cons with both models but I think suggesting that buying direct gets you better service is a bit disingenuous IMHO.

Absolutely pros and cons of both - its great to be able to walk into a shop and lots of shops would sort it for you without a problem - no denying that!

I don't think Canyon bikes are "so cheap".
It's just that all other Brands are ridiculously expensive.

I can't see a rose (or any others) with a bike equipped with fox/reverb/XT/SLX/DT Swiss for £1700.

Quite a few to choose from here:
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/products/bikes/mtb/enduro--downhill/

e.g. take the [url= http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/bike/rose-uncle-jimbo-2-2014/aid:652555 ]Uncle Jimbo 2[/url], swap out the RockShox Monarch for a Fox Float X and you have Pike up front, Fox shock, Reverb, XT derals, SLX sprockets and shifters for £1657.

Or take the [url= http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/bike/rose-crystal-stoke-2-2014/aid:652658 ]Crystal Stoke 2[/url] and swap in a 130mm Fox Float FIT CTD up front, a Fox Float CTD shock, and a Reverb and that should meet your spec for £1679.

Looks okay too:

[img] [/img]

One distinct advantage in using an LBS is that if the manufacturer is giving grief, an LBS has a bit more clout and better connections than your average end user

Looks ok too

Pros and cons with both models but I think suggesting that buying direct gets you better service is a bit disingenuous IMHO.

That depends on the service level available from one's LBSs.

Vermilion on nail head

e.g. take the Uncle Jimbo 2, swap out the RockShox Monarch for a Fox Float X and you have Pike up front, Fox shock, Reverb, XT derals, SLX sprockets and shifters for £1657.

Or take the Crystal Stoke 2 and swap in a 130mm Fox Float FIT CTD up front, a Fox Float CTD shock, and a Reverb and that should meet your spec for £1679.

Those were just the first two I clicked on in the line-up on their website wrecker. Feel free to try some others. In my experience the prices are very comparable to Canyon.

To be fair, I did have a look. The nearest I could find was about £1900 and didn't have a reverb.

It's all configurable (the advantage of assemble-to-order). You just click on the component, swap it and the difference is added to the cost.

If for some reason it doesn't list the option you want you just contact them and they'll sort it out.

I know this because it is how I was able to spec a WiFLi deral on my Rose CX bike 🙂

**** ugly looking thing though and I like my bikes purr-retty

Yeah that does seem to be the main downfall to them!

Oh gawd those Rose bikes are a bit of an eye sore imo.

Rose make up for it with their magnificent names though. I really want a The Janitor.

I'm also guessing that the slightly erratic flow of stock from Canyon is due to some kind of cost saving in the supply process.

(No axe to grind here btw I waited happily for my Canyon)

I doubt its a discounted issue. Most supplier volume discounts work on a per year spend so buying all at once doesn't really help. I expect its a scheduling thing for efficiency (make lots of one model at once), but also the slightly erratic nature will be in part due to how as you go building can get a bit messy - if you get a run on a certain model (say an X1 equipped model) that could put you out of stock on all your X1 models all at once, so even though the other models haven't sold many, they get effected by those that have. Lead times from order to delivery to the assembly factory from component suppliers varies from 2.5 > 6 months, so you'd have to have a crystal ball in order to be able to get it perfect all the time.

Agree- if Rose could sort out some lookers they would be cleaning up the mainstay lot.

That depends on the service level available from one's LBSs.

Absolutely - that's why I said

There are good direct sellers and bad ones, good LBSs and bad ones, good manufacturers who sell through the trade - and bad ones.

I've then had to tell the customer the 'good' news (and there's NO way the shop owner is paying out of his pocket....he charged labour for warranty work!).Endured a tirade of abuse and lost a customer.
Only for them to return shortly afterwards after contacting the company directly and getting the issue resolved......making a mockery of the shop!!!

I know exactly how you feel. Which is why we'll not take no for an answer unless we are assured that the customer will be told the same.

BTW we're having a problem with some brakes off a bike we sold at the moment. Customer has long ago been sorted out (by us) and we're now trying to get the supplier to play ball. If they don't, we've already taken the hit - because there was obviously a problem, and it seemed like the right thing to do. The customer shouldn't have to put up with what we're putting up with.

FWIW I've dealt with Drover (above) on getting bits for my rather niche 29er for which they are a dealer. And they were brilliant even getting some shock hardware specially made. And I've dealt with Ben (and Dave) at Bird, and they're great as well 😉

People buy from people. I like to be able to pick up the phone and talk to someone close/passionate about whatever it is I'm interested in. The model by which they sell stuff is somewhat less relevant.

I think my Norco Range is easily as good value as a Canyon in terms of frame and spec for the money. With the added advantage of interest free credit!

It all comes down to the complete package. Value is not a direct relation of cost. The price relates to a lot of things, the trade prices, the deals, the order volumes etc. the consumer price reflects other things. As I said before do you want to try the bike before you get it, sit on it see how it actually sizes up, see where the weight balance is? Do you know how to swap brakes over set up suspension or more.

I'm off to spend a day helping a mate out in a LBS, I've seen people buying bikes and for some being shown what the suspension modes are, how to set a fork up, what seat height and control positions is easily worth the extra cash on an expensive purchase. That and the unfortunate line where one component fails all over the place (FOX CTD Dual lockout from 2013) and the LBS can speak to the distributor and have parts ready to fit in store (1hr downtime) or in the early days before a new park be able to provide a temp fix to keep people riding.

Judging by the questions that pop up here and in a few other places there is still a place for bike shops and mechanics, the internet can't fix everyones problems

It's just a different operating model, Canyons is more efficient, taking advantage of technology and probably managed more tightly than most. The cost savings are past on to the customer, which is a very un English principle.

True. Orange do the same. UKmade, with no import duties etc to pay so their full suss frames are uber cheap to UK customers.

True. Orange do the same. UKmade, with no import duties etc to pay so their full suss frames are uber cheap to UK customers.

😀

😆

The shop I worked in regularly had Canyons in for warranty work. It was never a big issue dealing with them. Sometimes they were slow though, I remember a set of Fox forks taking a long time to get sorted. The truth is though that a lot of brands/distributors that your LBS sell are a nightmare to deal with too. Lapierre springs to mind. If you have a good relationship with a good bike shop it's probably better to buy from a shop since they'll fight your corner and chase the distro on your behalf.

If you're an arse, or the shop is an arse then nothing's gonna happen quickly. And no one is going to go above and beyond to sort out your Canyon or YT warranty. It's also worth factoring in the cost of a complete bike build on top of purchase price, as some howlers slip through the cracks online. I had a lovely lady phone me up to ask if we would quickly check over a bike she's bought online. "It just needs the seat holder bolt tightened maybe a few other bolts". She comes down with the bike, I lean on the bars and nearly hit the floor. "If you could tighten that bolt too" she says. Long story short it managed to get to her straight from the factory. It needed everything.

Another thing is sizing and advice (again only relevant at a good shop you trust). 70-80% of people are very misinformed when it comes what bike they should buy. The general problem seems to be that between expert mates, magazines and internet reviews they get their facts completely muddled. Some friendly advice can save thousands of pounds. In (very) general these tend to be guys who are maybe buying their first "proper" bike, first full suss etc.

People buy from people. I like to be able to pick up the phone and talk to someone close/passionate about whatever it is I'm interested in.

works for you personally. My road bike and MTB were bought with a mouse click, unseen, no demos etc, due to being at a stonking price (~50% off rrp).

True. Orange do the same. UKmade, with no import duties etc to pay so their full suss frames are uber cheap to UK customers.

My Alpine 160 frame, with CCDB, was £1050 brand new from a dealer.
In France 🙄

I bought a brand new Santa Cruz Blur 4X frame for £600 from CycleSurgery.

So what's your point caller.

Hora's got a good point re. Orange RRP though.

They only ever pop up really cheap in France!

Rose aren't comparable with canyon. Rose are off the shelf frames labelled up as rose, canyon spend a hell of a lot on r&d and design, they are right up there with the top producers.

MSP - Member

Rose are off the shelf frames labelled up as rose

Is that really true? Not convinced tbh. Certainly haven't seen the Tusker frame anywhere else and it's very distinctive...

Obviously not true for their MTBs.

Dunno about road.

Pretty sure it's not true, never heard it before and most of their bikes have a family resemblance, so unless they've bought the whole catalogue.

Given that they get equaly good/better reviews to the canyon road bikes I reckon if they could be bought off the shelf from china it'd be on MTBR or elsewhere, they're pretty good at identifying generic frames.

They only ever pop up really cheap in France!

Last time I was in France I spotted soo many bikes that I'd never seen before (of course Mondraker - before it was distributed here) and a few others that maybe were boutique/only really popular on the continent and would never make it here?)- Orange is probably abit 'boutique' and not the same following in France too.

thisisnotaspoon

Pretty sure it's not true, never heard it before and most of their bikes have a family resemblance, so unless they've bought the whole catalogue.

Given that they get equaly good/better reviews to the canyon road bikes I reckon if they could be bought off the shelf from china it'd be on MTBR or elsewhere, they're pretty good at identifying generic frames.

There's generic and then there's generic. It's not always a black and white issue of Company A developing their bikes from the ground up, and Company B just adding stickers to a frame from a catalogue. A Specialized Enduro, for the sake of argument will probably have tubes that are custom developed for that bike, extruded and butted to exact specs. Pivots and hardware again, will probably be custom.

A company looking to make a cheap bike can go to their Taiwanese frame manufacturer and buy an off the shelf design, tubes, pivots hardware etc and have it adapted to suit their required geometry, sizing and add cosmetic embellishments. I haven't seen any of the latest Canyon mtbs but the older ones definitely had a parts bin look about them.

A company looking to make a cheap bike can go to their Taiwanese frame manufacturer and buy an off the shelf design, tubes, pivots hardware etc and have it adapted to suit their required geometry, sizing and add cosmetic embellishments. I haven't seen any of the latest Canyon mtbs but the older ones definitely had a parts bin look about them.

Go on then, point out any rose, or canyon frame with common frame tubes/parts to a bike from another company? Just because they didn't hydroform their frames to the n'th degree doesn't mean they didn't design them.

Arguably it's been a very good design ethos for them. Canyon bikes look like Canyon bikes, and ditto Rose, both have quite distinctive silouettes. The round tubes actualy stand out in a marketplace dominated by odd intircately shaped tubes and marketing buzzwords. And probaly doesn't harm their bottom line either, no doubt round tubes help them make cheaper bikes.

Interestingly, look at the very high end of the bike market, especialy road bikes, even in the carbon bikes where shape doesn';t impact on cost, lots of round tubes, becasue they're light and strong.

Well... There are some fairly standard parts out there, just because it doesn't make a lot of sense to reinvent the wheel. You find the exact same dropout housing on a ton of hardtails frinstance, because Merida make a ton of bikes for different people, doesn't make them any less a unique built-for-purpose design. And has some advantages too- it's not better for me that my Cotic has a unique dropout, because it means there's only one place I can buy mech hangers from!