Just read Cy's email about the £500 price drop on all first gen droplink bikes. Very decent of them, but what a tough gig. You make a range of bikes that everyone seems to love. They get great reviews, win bike tests etc, but you think you can make them even better by tweaking the geometry a bit. But as soon as you release one model with the new geometry nobody cares about your old bikes anymore. They are not any worse, but all anyone wants to know is when the new version will arrive.
I not sure there are many manufacturers who would tell you three months in advance that they plan to update a model and start to offer discounts on existing stock. So fair play to them, but it sounds like a pretty hard way to make an easy living.
I bought a flare max in January at full price (with an upgraded shock admittedly) a few weeks before the new one was launched. I love it, I think its was worth what I paid and I know that it is probably a better fit for me and my riding but I still can't help but feel put out!
I think it's human nature to be awkward and I do feel sorry for these guys who have to deal with us!
I'm the other way round. Really wanting a mk1 Flaremax because of the new ones being 1x only. Non left thought
I’m the other way round. Really wanting a mk1 Flaremax because of the new ones being 1x only. Non left thought
I read that email and thought the same. Fair play to Cotic.
I know there is always that view that they get too much fanboi credit but I must say they make good bikes. I've not seen anything in terms of QC issues reported.
They are a pretty honest bunch too! I was talking to Richard at the London Bike show and told him how I'd had my mk1 Solaris for just over 3 and a half years, it had various guises in that time, yet my best ride off-road ever (ever, not just on the Solaris) had been late last year. First thing he said was just because things have moved on it doesn't make that old mk1 a bad bike. So no hard sell, no 'but if you'd been on this model it would have been better' etc. I appreciated that.
I'd still love a new Soul though and that's from a die-hard 29er fan.
Certainly got me tempted. I was holding out for a longshot Rocket Maxx but I'm sorely tempted. On the basis I took one for a test ride last summer and if I had the readies then I would have bought one there and then, I should be philosophical and just take advantage of the price drop, but reading Cy's views on the new Longshot bike and the fact I've now saved up the readies I'm in a dilemma.
I also love the fast red, which probably wont be a colour option on the new longshot version. It's a tricky decision to make as I've not ridden a Longshot one so not sure if this longer geo will suit me, or make any noticeable difference.
But I guess it's no different than other manufacturers who religiously bring out new bikes every year. There are always year end bargains to be had.
I've had a few Cotics, 3 souls and a Bfe to be precise, great bikes, particularly the mk1 Soul.
However, I was on the 11 month waiting list during the ultimately ill fated attempt at switching production to the UK of the original Rocket, the silence from Cy during that wait was actually astounding, only comms from him was me prompting and asking. Maybe this glut of old frames is a result of that. Lots of folk really interested then moved on when nothing happened for nigh on a year.
That VYRO chainset looks interesting!!
I appreciate the sentiments, and there's always going to be someone left behind when we do things like this. It's a really tough call and we try not to do it often. However, this is better to get these bikes sold now at a discount to fund new ones, and let people make an informed choice. We have been quietly offering this discount for a couple of weeks as people have ordered so there shouldn't be too much upset.
I’m the other way round. Really wanting a mk1 Flaremax because of the new ones being 1x only. Non left thought
Give us a shout about the RocketMAX. With a shorter shock and offset bushing the RocketMAX can be made very close to the same shape as the FlareMAX. They're very closely related frames. It's around 200grams heavier, but that's it.
However, I was on the 11 month waiting list during the ultimately ill fated attempt at switching production to the UK of the original Rocket, the silence from Cy during that wait was actually astounding, only comms from him was me prompting and asking. Maybe this glut of old frames is a result of that. Lots of folk really interested then moved on when nothing happened for nigh on a year.
That was a bad time, and there are all sorts of reasons why I wasn't better at keeping up with customers, but mainly because I didn't have anything to say because I didn't have an end date. I've learnt my lesson, and try to be better than that every day. Hopefully that's apparent in all our communication now.
Don't have a Cotic bike.
But it's great to buy older stuff / frames for little money and to slap some neat components onto them. There are so many XC hardtail frames around which were made for 100 mm forks. Put a new 130 or 140 mm fork on, wider rims, good tyres and these bikes are a blast. "Old" stuff isn't bad...
To be a bike manufacturer (let' say for an mtb brand which in the 2 k market) or to work for a bike manufacturer: it's not really an "hardship"... Bit of an hassle to be forced to tell every year a "new story" / to crank new models out - but some of the direct sales brands grow like nuts. And then it's big, big fun and a great money making machine. And if there is even a company racing team going - hey these guys have the greatest time of their life!
O.k. - there is lot's of stress involved for the engineers going every couple weeks to Asia to work with the companies which make the parts. Travel stress, communication stress, schedule stress, stress of quality control. But they get good bucks for this work as well.
No reason to feel sorry so.
Eh OP? You really need to get a room with one of the Cotic mob as it seems they have done nothing out of the ordinary to me. Since when was discounting old models anything other than absolutely normal, regardless of how well they had been received? As for giving notice of a model change why is that different to the usual ‘model year’ method where you can expect a discount on the current year stock around spring ready for the new model in the summer? They are not doing anyone a favour, they are shifting old stock.
Nothing against Cotic but they are just a bike manufacturer, albeit a good one to deal with by all accounts. Why the need to weep for them falling foul of the cruel bike industry or champion their brave heart spirit for rising above old model adversity?
@chestrockwell:
haha. Great. Cotic manufactures good bikes. Yes. And Cotic is in a great market niche.
Simple calculation:
2000 bucks for 14 kg
That's around 140 bucks for every kg bike.
Compared to other goods/industries: yes - great! This is comparable to aircraft parts / military.
There are branches which get along with 20 ... 40 bucks / kg (finished product). I would feel sorry for those...
Cotic is doing great. Great market. Great product and excellent money/kg ratio.
excellent money/kg ratio.
Have you calculated this one - https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/9250-specialized-tarmac-disc/ ?
@DezB:
great, great link!
Best marketing Job ever. Every bike they sell the whole marketing crew goes out - in the most expensive restaurant in town. Wonderful to transform fairly low cost base material in ... gold!
You could email them OP and ask to pay the un-discounted price for their 'old' product if you really want to help.
You should do that calculation for your phone...
Raw material costs are an irrelevance for most consumer goods. How much did the blocks and bricks your house is made of cost?
Well I've just snapped a Flare frame up at the discount price, so I'm not moaning. I had a demo ride on one over 18 months ago and loved it, wanted one ever since but couldn't stomach £1500 honestly. Several frames have come and gone in the meantime but no 2nd hand Flare's have come up.....
I got Cy's email yesterday and within 1/2 an hour had pressed buy. Now to sell my other frame and bike. I'm hoping the Flare will be my one bike for all things, and hope the first gen will fit this bill nicely being slightly higher and having 2x capability. Will be glad to be a Cotic owner again, I've had a MK2 Soul, MK3 Soul, 650B Soul and a MK2 Solaris. They were all great, but mid travel 650b full sus is the sweet spot for me.
excellent money/kg ratio
I'm surprised more reviewers haven't adopted this excellent rating measure.
The 90s called, they want their Dremelled stem back
Yeah. Look at all these industry fat-cats. I'm surprised they could put down their caviar and champagne for long enough to pose for a photo to be honest.
Not that it matters, but the original post wasn't supposed to be limited to any one manufacturer. My sympathy is with anybody who is trying to make a living by selling bikes to us lot. But sympathy is clearly in short supply round here.
I’m pretty sure they won’t lose money, even at the discount. I guess it’s a balancing act between not ordering too many bikes so you have to have a sell off and ordering too few so you run out of stock. I can’t have sympathy for someone who got their sums wrong.
My (maybe harsh)point was that it seems there’s a never ending supply of people ready to fawn all over Cotic even when they do something normal. Oh, and I don’t buy the couple of lads in a shed image either, they’re as market savvy as anyone else and will flog far more bikes than the genuine small companies. Not that that matter, makes the bikes any less ace or has anything to do with the price of fish.
I had been concerned that Bird seemed to be out Cotic Cotic in the eyes of the STW order but it looks like order has been restored.
But sympathy is clearly in short supply round here.
You really think those happy chaps, working in a job they love, want [i]our[/i] sympathy?! 😆
@chiefgrooveguru:
phone=electronics product. Such "ratios" won't work there
new house=(blocks and bricks) times "ratio" works very, very well. The building guys use a ratio times "building-volume" of the building. The ratio is different for different types of buidling. That's the way "civil construction" guys start with their first costings for a building. And you have to buy the land of course.
bike is made from steel, aluminium, rubber, paint. The rate bucks/kg applies for these products. Good steel starts from roughly 1 buck/kg and very good aluminium from 3 bucks/kg. If a company ends with 140 bucks / kg is more than excellent. Then you are a happy happy guy! Like the happy chaps on the Cotic picture above. Great company, great bikes. Happy people. Other companies are in the range - for these kind of products -of 20 ... 40 bucks/kg.
Which doesn't mean that the 140 buck/kg guys are "bad" or "evil" or whatever. They are smart and lucky. They found the perfect market niche. Just great! The 140 bucks/kg are a marketing driven price tag. And if they lower this price tag 50% for some weeks nobody will suffer. The fun level of the people working at Cotic won't go down for a minute. And that's good.
Christ there's some crap being spouted in this thread....
Respected bike firm makes good bikes, industry and trends move fast, bike firm updates its range, doesn't want to be left with stock of previous generation models so discounts them. Lucky people get good bikes cheap.
Cotic aren't lumbered with 'out of date' bikes, and start selling new range with a spike in sales no doubt. Punters all ride nice bikes, regardless of generation. Not sure there's anyone to feel sorry for or that it's any more complicated than that?!
LMAO at the hero worship, they make bikes ffs. GET A GRIP
“Which doesn’t mean that the 140 buck/kg guys are “bad” or “evil” or whatever. They are smart and lucky. They found the perfect market niche. Just great! The 140 bucks/kg are a marketing driven price tag. And if they lower this price tag 50% for some weeks nobody will suffer. The fun level of the people working at Cotic won’t go down for a minute. And that’s good.”
This really is a new level of gibberish.
My company manufactures lightweight loudspeakers. They cost MORE to make because they weigh LESS.
Same for bikes. Same for performance cars. And so on.
In Fairness I have worked on a tender for large engineering job, where the client asked tendering companies to use an estimate for the Qty's of basic materials in a plant concept (mostly steel and concrete) and then apply various factors based on the perceived technical complexity, estimated levels of effort for design, Guesses at safety requirements and substantiation required in order to turn that concept into a detailed design as a means of deriving a price...
So take X tons of steel, and then bolt on various factorized guesses to arrive at a price that will, without doubt, be utterly "Wrong"... needless to say we didn't get the work and were sort of relieved TBH...
So yes there are people out there who operate of a simplified £/$ per Kg converted to end product/service type basis, but they are mostly rather straight forward project management types who can't process big words and you shouldn't explain anything technical to as it makes them angry and confused...
This thread is worse than alien covenant
Wow, who'd have thought that expressing a bit of sympathy for your fellow man would prove so controversial. That's me telt I guess.
I still wouldn't fancy running a business where stock can take months to arrive and fashions change overnight. Or one where it's considered normal to warn your customers that you plan to improve a product and offer big discounts on all your existing stock three months in advance. But I guess they do it because they love it, so ***k 'em.
Wow, who’d have thought that expressing a bit of sympathy for your fellow man would prove so controversial. That’s me telt I guess.
I agree with you RP, it is a tough gig... some of the responses on here are just weird and way off but everyone is entitled to an opinion I guess.
The point is it’s a bit weird starting a thread to express sympathy for a bike manufacturer that is simply changing design, as all others do, at a time of year most others do and selling off old stock at a discount, as virtually everyone else does. Trust me, Cotic won’t be losing any sleep over it unless they massively over ordered so save your concern for something that actually matters.
“The point is it’s a bit weird starting a thread to express sympathy for a bike manufacturer that is simply changing design, as all others do”
As someone who runs a not dissimilar company with similar levels of direct customer contact from the boss, it is definitely different to the bigger companies.
There’s no doubt in my mind that the relationship is not like that between consumer and mass manufacturer whether they sell through retailers or direct. The pros you get from being able to directly communicate with your prospective customers are offset by the negative reactions you get from existing recent customers when you launch something new. There’s a fine balance to tread and I think Cotic are pretty good at it.
Cotic had two ways of doing this - one big launch for all the longshot bikes or staggered launches. But stock control precludes the former, plus it’s a bigger gamble than spreading them out. And this way they get PR each time a model is released.
@chestrockwell - I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here so maybe I should walk away. As I've said a few times, it was never meant to be about a single manufacturer. Yes, it was triggered by an email from Cotic, but that just made me realize that there are challenges involved in running a smallish volume bike company that I hadn't considered before. As you say, it may just be perfectly normal business practice. Maybe all the direct sales brands routinely warn their customers that models are going to change months in advance and drop their prices. I don't know, but that's not the point. It just seems like a pretty tough business to me and since my sympathy isn't finite I don't mind sending some their way. If that seems weird then fair enough, it's weird.
I still wouldn’t fancy running a business where stock can take months to arrive
Away man ,The sick boys launch a new product every day , admittedly they have pretty much all been fictional vaporware or made out of really crap chinese off the shelf items ,
But wait ,yes that was a bit harsh , there have been the 4 frames that they seem to have sold made by that bloke in his shed, and the three they got that factory in china to make after declaring undying devotion to UK made
And wait a minute that turned into, well pretty much anything goes really and it doesnt matter if we cant make it. Maybe if everyone just played the odds they would sell something.
Who’d be a bike manufacturer? Its easy your just watching the wrong company.
Sick have an "interesting" business model that's for sure :). They seem to have outsourced everything except the branding. As if making the bikes doesn't matter and it's just about the value of the brand. Then there is all this "disruptive marketing", which I don't understand at all. But then I don't think I'm their target market. Fair play if they can make it work.
Away man ,The sick boys launch a new product every day , admittedly they have pretty much all been fictional vaporware or made out of really crap chinese off the shelf items
You realize they have designed all their frame right? None of them have been off the shelf Taiwanese or Chinese frame like many other brands use.
Yes - they designed the frames and did a wonderful Job.
Then Cotic does the same like nearly all other OEMs - they give the manufacturing drawings to companies in Asia and those supply the bits and pieces.
Nothing wrong about it.
Some hate my little "buck / kg" calculation. But in Asia there they don't talk about the "wonderful end product" - it's about "buck / kg". For a stem, a frame, a bar and and and these companies are down to "raw material plus machining costs plus energy plus labor". Purchase for raw material is about 1 buck / kg to 3 bucks / kg.
And Cotic doesn't pay any of those companies more than 10 bucks / kg for their stem, frame, bar and and and.
Forks, drivetrain, rims are made in Asia as well - these parts have a "brand name" and Cotic has to pay much more than "10 bucks / kg" of course.
But for the overall package - a product made from aluminium, steel and rubber - a price tag of 140 bucks / kg is more than fantastic.
Problem of "stock": that's exactly the direct sales companies work on. The bigger direct sales companies don't have "bikes on stock"...
Bit complex to get the production line and the purchasing organized - but if you don't have bikes on stock you don't have to give rebates for "old models"...
Cotic is a direct sales bike OEM?
Guess they are able to tweak their production in the same manner. Bit of a challenge - but it works.
You realize they have designed all their frame right? None of them have been off the shelf Taiwanese or Chinese frame like many other brands use.
Ah just like cotic , bird , stanton , whyte none of them make off the shelf bikes, none of them make bad bikes and none of them act like complete ****s when someone doesnt like their stuff.
Scattergun marketing aside and thinking 500 likes from 10 year olds converts to sales, eventually the shit hits the pot and you sell something ,
Scattergun marketing aside and thinking 500 likes from 10 year olds converts to sales, eventually the shit hits the pot and you sell something
Well if that is what is happening they will fail, there is no longevity in randomly selling in a scattergun market.
However if they don't fail they will compliment the top UK bands as mentioned above offering something a bit different. I for one can't wait to see where exciting and expanding UK scene goes from here.
But then I don’t think I’m their target market. Fair play if they can make it work
I don't think many people on here are their target market hence all the negativity towards them.
The way they come across to me is, we come up with some ideas and get some frames and stuff made, if you like it buy it, if not go **** yourself we don't care. I quite like that.
The way they come across to me is, we come up with some ideas and get some frames and stuff made, if you like it buy it, if not go **** yourself we don’t care. I quite like that.
See, I'm fine right up to that last bit. What's wrong with "if not, fine, there are lots of other options on the market that might suit you better"? Why so aggressively defensive? But, as I say, I'm clearly not the target and at least they are trying to make a business work, which is more than most of us can claim I suspect.
One thing this post has made me realize is that I would like to own a Cotic frame one day. I have ridden friends Solaris and Soul before and enjoyed them, I think the new gen BFE is the first one I have thought I won't like to own but I have a PP Shan 27.5 and its very similar so at the moment it is a no go. Escapade is something I have been curious about too.
There is something inspiring I found about riding the friends Cotic's that I didn't find when I rode a friends Stanton's. Not sure what it is but I'm sure I will own one before to long.
@MarkBrewer:
I don't see many "negative" comments here. Think all in the forum really like bikes and all hope that Cotic will grow and that they continue cranking out new and neat bike designs.
There is the marketing side which we see as a customer. And Cotic does a fantastic job there. No doubt.
And then there is always the "internal" side we normally don't see. The purchasing department, the endless meetings where they squeeze the suppliers in Asia and all this kind of stuff. I'am very, very familiar with these small and mid sized companies which produce the parts for those OEMs. In these meetings there is no talk about that a supplier get's more bucks/kg because the part is for a Cotic bike...
If somebody likes to feel "sorry":
feel sorry about those suppliers and the working conditions of the workers there.
If we start feeling sorry for the OEM we are mentally stuck in their "marketing story".
And clear: the whole bike business and the "production in Asia" is a bit strange - and Cotic isn't able to change this way of bike business. Nearly all bike OEMs work like this.
I quoted somebody that was talking about Sick bikes so I was talking about them not Cotic, sorry if that wasn't clear. I own a Cotic soul and it's probably the best bike I've ever owned just to add a bit more Cotic fan love to the topic!
See, I’m fine right up to that last bit. What’s wrong with “if not, fine, there are lots of other options on the market that might suit you better”? Why so aggressively defensive?
I don't know if they actually are like that, that's just my impression of what they are like and I quite often get the wrong end of the stick about things/people.
“See, I’m fine right up to that last bit. What’s wrong with “if not, fine, there are lots of other options on the market that might suit you better”? Why so aggressively defensive?“
Because I’m not under any obligation to be nice to someone who isn’t being courteous.
Normally I lose my shit eventually on STW because someone is trashing my business with some kind of libel or misinformation which to a startup is pretty damaging.
Usually because I’m knackered i’ll fly off the handle often with hilarious or embarrassing effect. But hey I’m human too. I want my business to work, I’m following that path at all costs.
People ask for no marketing or PC snowflake bullshit, then suddenly they are offended?
Admittedly, sometimes I do it because it’s just plain fun to annoy some geezers who spend more time talking absolute rubbish on the internet, than actually riding bikes / owning a bike company / being productive. It gets tiring reading all the hatred on here, do you even like bikes anymore or what?
As a sidebar I met Cy at the london bike show and dan stanton and finally BTR after a lot of missed chances! All working hard all still dreaming.
You guys should be proud of what they are creating even if you hate us. There is no spooky cabal of people trying to rip you off, these guys all love bikes.
Cy is pretty much the nicest bloke I’ve met in the industry and that’s up for some stiff competition.
@jordanchaos - Thanks for chipping in.
I started this thread to express some sympathy with those of you that are trying to make a business out of selling bikes, so I don't want to end it by falling out with one of you. You are right that you don't have "any obligation to be nice to someone who isn’t being courteous", but I'd still argue that you should try. Of course, it's your business and maybe "losing your shit" from time to time works for your target market. If so, stick with it. It makes life more interesting if nothing else.
Every time I don’t defend the brand I fail those who supported it.
But conversely, the first year of business is hard, stressful, tiring.
Some people are better at handling that, some people have wealth and investment to cushion the blow. For me and Tim, we are riders first and we really only started making bikes for ourselves then suddenly the demand came and the dream of owning a bike company was a reality.
Its a difficult business, it’s full of contradictions. But I think behind closed doors, certainly in the U.K. profit is very much behind the aim of just making good bikes.
the technicality and red tape is frequently belittled, the costs, they are astronomical. We spent 20% overall last year on research, testing and development, not of profit, of everything.
More months than not part of me and Tims salary from our day jobs, goes in to Sick.
Admittedly the part we would probably spend on bikes anyway. Oh yeah and we had to sell all our bikes. To do it. But that’s the price of entry to follow your dream.
Within 6 months (maybe less) we’ll have enough stock to send items next day and not have a wait, get a handle on warehousing and logistics.
Leave my day job and run this. Once again behind closed doors the industry itself is helping us. We’re learning, we’re listening.
Appreciate your post.
J
Thanks for the honest insight and I hope it works out for you.
Strange thread.
Don't see any hatred here. Do I have to read "in between the lines" here?
Cotic is around now for more than 10 years - is that right?
Why do we talk about the "first year of a start up" here? Cotic is well established in the bike business - or?
I hope I didn't piss anybody of with my bucks/kg stuff so. But - for me - this is exactly the core of the beauty of biking. The simplicity! Steel, aluminium, rubber and paint - and you add some engineering and testing and end up with a great fun machine - a bike!
But the core of the machine is steel, aluminium and rubber. That's it. To turn this into a bike is called engineering.
And an engineer likes to improve and play around with things all the time - means the engineer cranks out bikes every year. That's his job. Nothing wrong about this. To get rid of old stuff you start a "sale". All very normal.
Good bikes, good fun, good business.
Fun thread as well. But have the impression that some really get more relaxed if they would be in the woods with their mountain bike more often.
Cheers!
Strange thread.
Don’t see any hatred here.
Totally agree! Nor "hero worship"!
.. and no-one said I guess they do it because they love it, so ***k ’em.
Bizarre.
.. and no-one said I guess they do it because they love it, so ***k ’em.
Yes, they did. I said that 🙂 Of course it was an attempt at parody and maybe not a very good one.
Hmm, I was quoting you who appeared to be referring to something someone else had said/inferred. Never mind, its all good 😀
All is good then!
Happy about that. Started feeling already bad...
Biking is good.
Cheers!
People ask for no marketing or PC snowflake bullshit, then suddenly they are offended?
Your no bullshit approach is bound to upset people, but I'm sure for every person that finds it offensive there's a load more that aren't offended and find your straight talking quite refreshing.
Just carry on as you are, that way you'll appeal to the sort of people your business is obviously aimed at. I wish more companies would write things like this when they hit a problem.