I've plenty of sympathy with the trail builders at Thetford, given what they have to work with gradient wise, but I just saw the following picture posted on Twitter and was somewhat astounded.
My only explanation is the FC have drugged them and managed to convince them to build them some new roads:
Exhibit A;
A green "Mountain bike trail" being built
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Exhibit B;
Some new "Red" Trail
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Tsk, trail centres, eh ?
Meanwhile, a few miles away [url= 
/-/en]this bridleway[/url] looks a nice route.
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Go volunteer your services timmys, the chap in the photo might not be a cyclist and thinks he's making a good trail. Perhaps they want a family friendly centre.
Go volunteer your services timmys, the chap in the photo might not be a cyclist and thinks he's making a good trail. Perhaps they want a family friendly centre.
The pictures are shamelessly stolen from the volunteer trail builders own website. The first one is from a trail building day. Granted the second pic is the work of some contractors.
I live far too far away to volunteer, but I do go there occasionally as it's near family (which is why I keep a vague eye on developments there). If I did live nearer I'm not sure I could convince myself it was worthwhile getting involved given the cosh the FC seem to have them under.
Meanwhile, a few miles away this bridleway looks a nice route.
If you say so. Looks dead boring to me.
If it's boring, you're not riding fast enough. 😉
Looking forward to 20foot breeze block rubble pies on my local trails.
If it's boring, you're not riding fast enough.
Nope it's still dull
Playing Devils advocate here.......
Some of the Blue & Green routes are pretty difficult to ride, mainly due to deep sand! Therefore a sturdier track will be good for the intended user.
The "Red" section above is I think a section that didn't drain well and was often like the somme.
This makes me so angry. The guys at timber are working really hard, giving up days of their life to build trails at thetford. They have to build the green family routes, so the fc will let them do the more exciting stuff.
The red route was built by contractors and was deliberately wide. Have you ridden it recently? A natural line has formed and its back to singletrack.
I don't have time to go to the build days but I pay my money to support their work. Put your money where your mouth is and help the people make it better. Why not turn up to a meeting and work with them to make things better.
I've not really got time to go into the details right now but there are a variety of reasons why these two sections in particular are the way they are and to jump in and ridicule what others are doing (especially volunterers) is pretty much par for the course with some! If you're going to be critical please at least research the full facts.
If any one would like to discuss the matters or are interested in becoming involved with TIMBER, pleasecheck out our website (www.timbermtb.org) or even drop me a pm with contact number and I'd be very happy to chat!
This makes me so angry. The guys at timber are working really hard, giving up days of their life to build trails at thetford. They have to build the green family routes, so the fc will let them do the more exciting stuff.The red route was built by contractors and was deliberately wide. Have you ridden it recently? A natural line has formed and it’s back to singletrack.
I don't have time to go to the build days but I pay my money to support their work. Put your money where your mouth is and help the people make it better. Why not turn up to a meeting and work with them to make things better.
+1 they give up a lot of there free time, its not easy work.
They is always a bigger picture and there are always reasons for project, Keep mtber's happy, keep land owner happy, keep public happy.
I'm sure the guys at timbers/thetford would be happy to have a chat about projects if you bump in to them on the trails.
Or
At least a "thanks for all the hard work guys" as you ride past.
Was there the other weekend, and saw these trails. From the perspective of an MTB'er I see the OP's original point, but at the time I was with my family. My wife can't undertand why I go mountain biking, but could see the point of a happy spin in the forest without getting muddy or trashing a bike in the process. My kids just went mental, as they do. The place on a Sunday was heaving. It's not rad for sure, but by heck it's a popular place and appears to meet the design criteria of introducing people to the great outdoors. Sure you could make all the trails devious Singletrack, but then you'd alienate 90% of the people that visit. Personally, as it was I thought it a brilliant place - and have you been into Bike Art? Now that is a bike shop. And for me, such a brilliant shop suggests that whoever commissioned and designed the centre itself knows what they are doing. It's not gnarl, but for most people it is an excellent place. In any case, as an MTB'er better trails are just a quick spin away so stop fretting.
Apologies, I meant to post something a bit cheeky rather than offensive to the trail builders. A slight case of late night drunk posting I'm afraid. My issues are totally with the FC and what they seem to allow the volunteers to do/not do.
What I find interesting about Thetford is how the FC there seem to be so active at removing/red-lighting technical additions. I don't understand why, for instance, the little bits and bobs that are constantly added at Cannock are fine by the FC there but totally forbidden at Thetford. If you look at the [url= http://chasetrails.blogspot.co.uk/ ]chase trails blog[/url], the work is a mirror image of Thetford, the type of thing they build seems to be exactly what gets removed at Thetford.
Regarding family trails, I wish someone at Thetford FC could be sent to check out the Blue trails at Brechfa, Forest of Dean, Coed Y Brenin and Glentress etc., so that they can see that inclusive trails can be fun and interesting.
...and have you been into Bike Art? Now that is a bike shop. And for me, such a brilliant shop suggests that whoever commissioned and designed the centre itself knows what they are doing.
Has it changed hands?
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bike-art-at-thetford-why-so-miserable
Seemed OK to me, but then we were actually spending money instead of daydreaming. But who goes there to buy a £5k bike? We bought two helmets and the guy serving was nice enough. The cafe was the issue for me.......
"Playing Devils advocate here.......
Some of the Blue & Green routes are pretty difficult to ride, mainly due to deep sand! Therefore a sturdier track will be good for the intended user.
The "Red" section above is I think a section that didn't drain well and was often like the somme."
Get a fatbike, problem sorted on both accounts
They have to build the green family routes, so the fc will let them do the more exciting stuff.
When is the exciting stuff planned?
Things just don't seem to be progressing at Thetford......
When I was local(ish) I used to ride at Thetford lots, ie most weeks. When I moved further away and started riding other trail centres, I saw how much more they were marching on ie Cannock, Sherwood, and my (now) local trail-centre Fineshade.
I am not having a go at TIMBER at all, just to make this clear. I'm sure they work really hard and there is all sorts of politics behinds the scenes with the FC etc, but I just don't think Thetford is getting anywhere near it's full potential. All of which means I rarely bother to make the trip over there anymore, which is a shame.
Then couple this with the misery and outright rudeness of the owner of Bike Art (compared to the enthusiasm and friendliness of Fineshade Cycling, Sherwood Pines cycles and Bike Chase at Cannock), and it just detracts from the whole experience.....
The bit of track in the first picture is double track width wide enough to be ridden in both directions as a family trail (tag along's etc). It was badly waterlogged which is why we're raising the height of the trail a bit. We gave a commitment to the FC to help out on this FAMILY route and it's through cooperation like this that leads us to get machinery like a Kanga mini skid steerer and a Bomag and money for a pump track (is that interesting enough for you?). If more interest is added to the Green and Blue trails it'll make it easier to add more technical features to the harder trails.
The second picture is of a contractor section of built trail - that just happens to be as wide as the roller they used. We could easily go in there and make it more interesting if we wanted.
After recent budget cuts the FC are more and more dependent on volunteers so we now get a lot of support from them. The FC aren't holding us back from adding more interesting stuff. But you have to face facts that Thetford Forest is used by a lot of families so everything needs thought and planning. The lack of gradient and a geology of sand doesn't help. But we could do what we want - the only thing holding us back is lack of volunteers. Thoughtless posts like this don't help. For everyone else - your support means a lot.
Personally I can't see the point in a pump track in Thetford - there's at least a couple close by at Bury if that's your thing. Chicksands has recently built one, and it gets little use from what I've seen.
I'd say use the digger/money build up the red or black into something a bit more testing - I can see Timber have had a go at little kickers and the odd berm, but they're tame to say the least. Although as mentioned Thetford doesn't really have gradients on it's side - although they do exist in some parts.
I have complete admiration for the volunteers and they do a great job in making Thetford accessible for everyone. But I just find it a little dull as it seems too focused on the xc whippets and the family days out.
So where is the pump track in Bury? You don't mean the skate park near Asda do you?
pump track in Thetford: is a good idea will be fun for kids and adults 😀
the only thing holding us back is lack of volunteers
Locals why not give up one/two days a year to your local trails, If everyone did there would Be:
red or black into something a bit more testing
exciting stuff
the little bits and bobs that are constantly added
If people want to add testing bits (and your local ish) etc… get involved!
A question for Timbers: Do the FC encourage volunteer trail builders, if so how?
Our local trails where we build the Country park (not FC) Give us a free years car pass for people that have been on 4 digs and free tea, coffee and biscuits ever dig 🙂
Nope it's still dull
+1, it's a dead straight, pan flat fireroad, at 40mph that'd be dull!
WOW
With a tag along that fast!!! 😯40mph
Didn't say I could do that! Just agreeing that MTGs 'alternative' trail looked even less interesting than the efforts of those building at Thetford!
@scottfitz - thanks for the reminder...
Regular volunteers can get and volunteer card giving you a discount at the great new cafe at High Lodge and a Discovery pass worth £50 allowing you to park at High Lodge for free for a year.
With your TIMBER membership you'll be able to claim a TIMBER t-shirt at no extra cost when we've had them printed.
You get discounts from our sponsors - which is worth the membership cost in itself.
Also a free car sticker and that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you've put something back into your community.
I should also say that there will be a shed load of Forestry activity over the next few years, so we're going to need all the help we can get.
Forest activity in the way of more tree felling?
That's the plan....I think.
Oh well, happening in most FC places currently (or scheduled to happen soon!).
PMSL....... @ Singletrack forum user in wrong end of stick, posting about subjects of which they know nowt shocker!! 😯
The Truth
Thetford has different issues to most other forests in the UK, largely because it was one of the earliest to embrace MTB and is therefore out of date, and is flat. Partially for that reason the trails are easily accessible to those who are not competent to use them, therefore there are exceptional problems that have to be considered when the gnarly meter is being set.
FC closures: These are in fact very few and far between. Currently the only one is a drop off into Squirrel Scamper pit, where two people have been severely injured. This will reopen once TIMBER have got round to reworking it to mitigate the risk. (Mitigate means when the legal nonsense starts that there is a reasonable defence. Not wrapping everyone and everything in cottonwool). If you aren't happy with that write to your MP about changing the legal system. Its nothing to do with TIMBER or the FC, simply a fact of life that we and they have to live with.
FC support for MTB and trail building: Is in fact fulsome, substantial and wholehearted.
The Plan: To renovate and weather proof the existing trail network, before looking to create more ambitious trail features. This is the reason TIMBER was formed, to staunch the mud that was engulfing the forest. Currently the Red route is pretty much sorted, we are on the green and black and blue will follow shortly after that.
Currently the family trail offer is in poor repair which is therefore driving riders onto the more demnanding cross country trails. Therefore, higher priority is being given currently to improving those family trails. The photo shown is a connecting section along a forest ride about to be used for one of those low grade trails. The work being done is to elevate the trail to give it better drainage than the surrounding area, and it is intended as a flat 2 metre wide line for children and families, nothing more nothing less. The contractor built section was to rectify a rooty boggy sludge, and has been done to protect the root system in a very small area.
Current concerns: The High Lodge, BCP and Santon Downham blocks have had little or no thinning and harvesting for 15 years or so. Unfortunately, that is now being rectified with wholesale harvesting works being done currently and for the next 15 months or so. Accordingly, TIMBER have been discussing ways and means to renew, replace and reinvigorate the “wild trail network” which will be severely depleted by this activity. The FC’s suggestion is to consider the controlled reintroduction of Motor Cycle enduros, which is what created the trails in the first instance. We have other ideas to assist in that process. Allied to this there has been active co-operation with Thetford MTB racing/The FC/TIMBER to utilise the thinning and harvesting program to produce better arena opportunties for their events.
Long term plans with broad approval but not necessarily funded or through the planning procedure.
1) A pump track (funded and site identified)
2) A range of technical trail features to augment the current Black/Red trails
3) Red and black to be rebadged to red only, (graded as such by dint of distance rather than difficulty) (Funded and in process)
4) A jump site, (presuming jump orientated folk can be arsed to get involved with it)
Things holding us back
Lack of volunteers, and uninformed criticism leading to demotivation of those we do have.
So don't whinge, get involved and guide the process its much more fruitful and who knows you might just enjoy it. Regarding distance, if you live close enough to ride there you live close enough to get stuck in. My average journey there is a round trip of 80 miles.
BB - What are the chances of getting more 'gnar' stuff in there?
We've got a group of riders who want something a bit more challenging in the local area. Most are situated in Norwich, but I'm sure would be happy to travel to contribute if they knew their digging wasn't going to get flattened every month.
Most of them used to ride Ringland hills, and had a good collection of more DH orientated runs, along with some fairly huge freeride digging and construction. Since that got flattened a few years ago by the council, most of the riders have been looking for a more permanent spot to dig.
I don't think anybody is whinging as such, just many, including myself, are/were confused about how things were progressing (or not as it was seemingly the case at times) at Thetford.
Berm Bandit > thanks for spelling out what the forthcoming plans are. I really hope these do come to fruition, and that Thetford does get back to where it was. I appreciate it is often a case of bystanders complaining about lack of action.
I've become involved in trail building/maintenance much closer to (new) home now, so won't be joining you with the work etc, BUT will be supporting you still with my car park fee, when I visit Thetford!
And I think the best piece of news is that the motorbike enduro's will be coming back, as these always cut-in lots of new sections.
BB - What are the chances of getting more 'gnar' stuff in there?
Google Sudbourne Jumps. Same management team as at Thetford. Its been there for donkeys years and is actively supported by the FC. We could have the same at Thetford. However it comes down to doing what the Sudbourne bods did, which is play the game from within. Timber would support you if you wanted to do it.
The only limitation is your imagination and application.
BB - I know Subourne (snape) area very well... was always a bit of a long drive. Would be great to have something similar at Thetford.
Where do we begin?
email me at bermbandit AT hotmail.co.uk and I'll put you in touch with the right people..... might even help out myself.
As always with this type of venture, it needs folk to throw their hat in the ring and do something. The possibilities are there for the taking, all that's required is for every rider that uses Thetford to at least show their support for TIMBER by joining but even more beneficial would be for every Thetford user to get involved. Be assured the FC at Thetford are onside, it's never going to be a wholesale 'hardcore' Mtb venue because of the multi use and family friendly facilities ..... and the lack of actual mountains (though we have taken visitors from Glentress and managed to impress them with Thetfords better fast flowing singletrack!), TIMBER working on the Green & Blue trails is part of the deal, that said there are benefits of carrying out that work, if only improving the general publics perception of Mountainbikers 🙂 . Included in that there are huge opportunities for [i][b]you[/b][/i] to improve the venue to deliver more of what [i][b]you[/b][/i] want.
........... the only thing missing is [i][b]you[/b][/i].
Visit [url= http://www.timbermtb.org/website/membership ]TIMBER website[/url]
I ride Thetford a lot, and due to being a) a work shy fop and b) working away during the week I don't get much chance to lend a hand trail building wise.
What I would say to the OP is consider what you're saying before you post. Whilst Thetford has a LOT of MTBers, it has even more families visiting who probably don't venture that far away from High Lodge. The bike shop (staffed by that moody bloke (who is actually ok, just a bit misunderstood)) makes most of its money from bike hire as oppose to just sales. Therefore, those trails are ridden by people who don't do a massive amount of recreational riding and thus, a wide well surfaced, non-challenging trail is just what's needed.
Thetford will never be THAT challenging but for me that's part of the charm. You don't have the elevation for a start and Thetfords strong point is its singletrack. Turn up to a winter series race or the D2D and marvel at how good the trails are. The natural singletrack there is some the best I've ever ridden, Brandon is especially good and stands up pretty well to winter.
I'm not sure a large dirtjumping spot like Sudborne would work at Thetford. Sudbornes strength is that you have to a) know where it is and b) drive out there to ride it - no cafe, no Go Ape or visitors centre, just dirt jumps. Can you image the carnage caused by all the people on hire bikes trying to hit a 30ft double like the ones at Sudborne?!? Keep Thetford natural - leave High Lodge for the families and have Brandon for the more serious folk. The cake is better too
So, as per my other post - keep Thetford for the xc'ers and the families? Nice and inclusive 🙂
I think Thetford would benefit from a jumpspot (perhaps placed in the vicinity of the planned pump track?). It works well at Dalby, with Dixons Hollow. I don't think you're going to get families trying to ride doubles on their hire bikes, either!!!! I think there is a demand for a jump spot, as most weekends I've ridden there, there are kids on jump bikes around the bombholes. Sherwood Pines also proves the popularity and the draw of a jump spot. You're not going to get your average XC rider on the jump spot, but if you can attract other riders of a different genre there, then that has to be a good thing.
Plus my experience/observations show that the 'jumpers' are usually quite enthusiastic at building things. Yes, they would need regulating, but it is the potential to get more hands to help. Perhaps it would also serve as a drive to get some Shore stuff put back, as I (and many others I know) really used to enjoy those sections on the Red Route (the beauty of them being that if you didn't want to ride them there were chicken runs).
As for Mr BikeArt........misunderstood - that's one way of putting it!!!! We tried for several years to understand him, with the help of trying to spend cash with him, but to no avail.
Keep Thetford natural
Know where you are coming from, but the truth is that there is absolutely nothing at Thetford which is "natural". The forest itself is a planted and harvested commercial crop and has only existed in recent history. The original landscape being sandy heathland, pretty much all of the "wild" trails, (i.e. the unsigned ones) are the product of motorcycle enduros that have been held in the forest until quite recently. Not at all natural.
Regarding Sudbourne and a jump site. The situation is exactly the same as Thetford. Sudbourne is an adopted FC Bike Park, run and managed by a club. There are parking facilities there and it is right next to the Sudbourne Road where it is is easily accessible to all and also where it is clearly signed. It became so as a result of the FC trying to engage with and manage pirate jump builders who were building dangerous and ill thought out jumps that were causing serious hazards to others. The situation at Thetford is identical and much more pressing as the argument for a properly managed jump site is much greater simply because of the high visitor numbers as you have mentioned. Illicit jumps built into and around way marked trails have already claimed the mobility of more than one innocent visitor, and it needs dealing with before someone gets killed. (Usually its because of a crappy jump on a trail, with the material coming from borrow pits either side or in front of it, the non jumpist arrives at speed, sees the jump tries to ride round or over it, front wheels into the pit and a face ground interface ensues)
The view until TIMBER interceded has been "find a jump knock it down", and "find a jump builder and prosecute". Both Timbers view and the FC's is now that it would be waaay more constructive to engage with these guys and provide what they want in a positive fashion. Trouble is if they don't come forward nothing will happen.
I've already held discussions with several jump builders and the FC. The FC I have to say have shown much more committment than the jump boys. We actually got as far as discussing suitable locations, but there is no point in simply building it for myself, so without jumpists nothing will happen.
So, as per my other post - keep Thetford for the xc'ers and the families? Nice and inclusive
Well you're never going to attract the DH crowd are you. It's all XC at the end of the day..
The majority of kids you see on jump bikes at Thetford normally don't have a helmet, have ridden from Thetford town or Brandon and normally don't have much of a clue when it comes to dirtjumping. I had to be ambulanced from Sudbourne with head and neck injuries a few years ago because my enthusiasm outweighed my talent - obviously I'm not going to sue anyone but I'm probably in the minority.
A serious jump spot to attract the proper dirt jumping folk will be too risky for the FC, I personally think large sets of trails should be kept on the QT and not made freely available for little jonny to spanner himself on.
Sudbourne, yesterday..
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Done.
I had to be ambulanced from Sudbourne with head and neck injuries a few years ago
...and that is why it needs to be done properly. The discussions we had re location were regarding being sufficiently out of the way, but easily accessible to emergency vehicles and so on for precisely the reasons you state. Incidentally, when Sudbourne was about to be bulldozed I was one of the guys who went after the FC to engage rather than knock it down, and thats how TROG the XC lot at Tunstall came to be formed, as an offshoot of that process.
Well you're never going to attract the DH crowd are you. It's all XC at the end of the day..
I'm not saying you are, but Thetford has the possibility of having some more interesting riding than miles of flat, xc singletrack...
And no, I'm not suggesting replicating Sudbourne at Thetford.
And no, I'm not suggesting replicating Sudbourne at Thetford.
I am! Preferably even better though.
There are quite a few downwardly inclined sections spread around the forest that are fun to ride, I'd suggest that no area can ever be all things to all people but Thetford obviously has a lot to offer. The numbers speak for themselves, week in week out there are hundreds of riders out there, a large proportion of those are localish and/or 'keen' Mtb'ers, if 50% of those became 'involved' the potential to improve the offering increases exponentially.
Read this thread a couple of weeks ago and have since been to Centre Parcs and spent some time riding thetford.
Before I went my sympathies naturally went with the trail builders but after going I can see were the OP is coming from.
There are several challenges for trail builders here of which I think the greatest, is not the lack of elevation, but the multitudinous ridge and furrow systems. It appears the forest has very recently been planted straight on agricultural land and the remains of ploughing in very severe, much more so than at swinley of any part of the surrey heath.
Generally flatish forest singletrack must be ridden at speed to be enjoyable but this proved very difficult at thetford due to the constant bumpyness of the terrain. In fact I'd say it was probably one of the most tiring trail centres I've done because you could nt really just sit down and spin.
I think there are at least another 2 issues.
1. The signs (probably down to the attitude of the local forestry commission ?). Seem quite a bit over the top especially for the bombholes some of which really just gentle dips in the ground.
Also calling a section "The Beast" this is actually somewhat laughable.
2. Being in a "nice" area with a low population density probably leads to a lack of funding.
Going to thetford did make me somewhat grateful for the £20 a year/£2 a go fee to use swinely forest though. This has allowed swinely/gorrick/BOB/others to build and maintain a good selection of trail which can stand up to a large number of riders.
In particularly I think the people at thetford could look at the latest addition to stickler (at Swinley) to see how to make a good trail in a totally flat area of forest.
But I can see the challenges are greater a thetford. In particularly I think the "links" are almost the hardest bit at thetford. What people want is a fairly flat piece of easily ridable singletrack to link up the good sections.
But at thetford unless you put this on "boring" fireroad, the ridge and furrow system means the "link" is actually more tiring than the "real" sections. Or alternatively large amounts of work needs to be put into trail to flatten it, which could be spent on the "real" sections.
Still thetford has some massive advantages
1. Its a huge bit of forest for the south/midlands of England.
2. Low population density suggests there is unlikely to be future conflict between user groups. Felt very quiet while I was there even Saturday morning.
I'm sure some very good trails will develop in time, but at the moment I think its somewhat behind similar trails at cannock/swinely. Personally think this is down to an overly cautious attitude from the FC and probably a lack of funding/manpower (low population density) rather than the lack of elevation. Which is what I think the OP was trying to suggest.
There is loads of really good single track in the forest, most of it is unmarked, but you can find maps of it all online. The signed trails are a poor advert for the real trails, although keep the masses off them.
I did find some other bits of trail, and I did notice that some of them actually appear to be in better condition that the main trail.
I think alot of it is marked on openstreet map, but I didnt have enough time to make a full reccy.
The real problems is that the waymarked trails are just wild trails that have been adopted and then ridden to death with zero maintainance. All of the way marked trails bar the Red are knackered beyond recognition and need substantial investment in them. The red is the exception, becuase it was originally "created" out of wild trails and then destroyed in under a year. TIMBER formed as a reaction to that, and it has been their objective since then to get the red into a long term sustainable condition as a first priority. It is just about there now. They have currently moved on to the Green to try to get that in shape before everyone who visits the Forest diverts onto the Red which is the only thing that isn't a quagmire or sand trap depending on the weather.
Everyone keeps going on about the wild trails, but they are diminshing in number and quality year by year. Its in the nature of the beast in a commercial forest that there will be harvesting and thinning, and when that happens unadopted trails will get trashed. This year there has been substantial harvesting at BCP. That pales into insignificance when you see the thinning map for the next 18 months or so. There is hardly a block at High Lodge that remains untouched by it.
The timber boys are on it and trying to achieve positive outcomes, but the reallity is that they are few and the issues are many, so any support would be welcome. they have a meeting on Thursday this week, so if you can roll up and give your support.
scu98rkr- I love swinley but it has no marked trails, some of the unmarked singletrack at thetford is as good as swinley singletrack.
The main advantage of thetford is that someone new can turn up and ride 2 plus marked trails. Which swinley doesn’t offer.
The main disadvantage is it doesn’t have the fun bits like "The Gully", "Deerstalker" etc...
100% agree Timbers guys should take a road trip to swinley, Lots there that would work well at thetford (meet up with a local for the best bit thought)