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poisonspiderSigh:
In the fewest words I can manage so there's little for you to misunderstand;
I never said geometry isn't important.
poisonspiderStatic numbers are meaningless
poisonspiderOh hang on, aren't you concerned it might crack ,
or that the top tube is 0.7mm different to what's 'on trend' at the moment, the handling will be shite!! 🙄 🙄
It's the dynamics/kinematics bit that is nonsense.
[i]"Kinematics"
[kin-uh-mat-iks, kahy-nuh-]
is the branch of classical mechanics which describes the motion of points, bodies (objects), and systems of bodies (groups of objects) without consideration of the causes of motion. Kinematics as a field of study is often referred to as the "geometry of motion".[/i]
[i]"dynamics"
[dahy-nam-iks]
the branch of mechanics concerned with the motion of bodies under the action of forces.[/i]
So, in other words...how the bike rides.
jimjamwould probably be kinematics/dynamics,[b] how the bike rides[/b]
Ideally, that means a test ride. I'm sure I already said that. Sorry for using big words. If a test ride can't be arranged there are alternatives to help with the [url= http://www.bikechecker.com/intro.php ]guess work.[/url]
grum
I have to say when people using words like 'kinematics' my BS detector starts twitching. Maybe it's just because I'm ignorant but....
I used to do 3d animation and the two main types of character animation we used were forward kinematics and inverse kinematics. Forward kinematics involved moving each limb and joint of a character point by point. Inverse kinematics is a hierarchical process where say, if you move a hand, the wrist, elbow, shoulder and torso will follow within parameters you define. So that being said, when I want to describe a series of parts moving together like a bikes' suspension it makes sense to me to use that term.
Anyway, **** this noise. if you need me I'll be on mumsnet.
Crikey this is bad tempered.
It's only bikes chaps. A leisure activitiy to most of us.
My two cents is that I prefer long and low, but my best mate - twice the rider I am - always undersizes because he comes from a street background and likes the flickability.
Horses for courses.
Grum, almost 5' 8" in my Glitterboots..
5-spot
ajt123, that's a good point, most of the fastest riders I know all ride old/unfashionable or downright knackered bikes. On the other hand, the rest of us need all the help we can get 😀
As I said, I like Horst link bikes........try and understand how the bike works using all the information available
If you were doing a good job with the information, you'd know that the general layout doesn't define the suspension kinematics, merely dictates your constraints, ie you could theoretically have a horst link that rides identical to a orange 5 for example, but you don't have the freedom with a single pivot to feel like many, many horst link configurations, though many horst link and single pivot configurations could be designed to behave in the same manner. 😉
Just to be a douche.
PS, switch link, dw link, vpp, maestro are all configurations of horst link, they all ride different because the designer has chosen to optimise in a particular manner, it's the designer dictating, not the general layout.
Brilliant thread. What we're seeing here is a combination of things....some snobbery around the YT brand, someone clinging on to current geometry trends, believing in them hook line and sinker and being dismissive of anything that deviates from that and some very defensive behavior from everyone regarding their overpriced bikes....it's pure gold.
Yep, loving this thread. Keep it coming!
What you need is a Cotic Soul. Ticks all the boxes.. I think.. 😀
I think this is it. It's all completely irrelevant though.
I suspected that was the mistake you were making. You're writing the Capra off for being too short because the ETT is about the same as an old Lapierre - however the seat angle is way steeper so that means the reach, which is the part of the length that matters on a bike like this, is much longer. And the head angle is a degree slacker. And the BB height is lower and BB drop much greater.
So in short the geometry isn't similar at all.
Dean's on the right track regarding the importance of where the pivots are as opposed to simply the layout. But Horst link is a specific type of four bar suspension where the pivot nearest the axle is in front of and below the axle. You can broadly group short-link four bar and long-link four bar into two groups, in terms of how much the virtual pivot point moves as you go through the travel but both configurations can be designed for high, low or middling anti-squat.
Single pivot bikes (simple ones or linkage driven) are more restricted in that they suffer more kickback and brake squat if designed to have high pedalling efficiency (anti-squat), whilst any virtual pivot design can work around that by giving the brake caliper a degree of freedom and by having a virtual pivot point that drops towards or even below the chain line to reduce the kickback. That does require good design though...
Thankfully all this stuff can be accurately modelled before anything gets built, which is why full-sus bikes are way better than they were 15 years ago!
@deanbfm, the horst link definition's very specific- it has to include a chainstay pivot near to and lower than the rear axle, none of those other systems meet that definition. They're 4-bars but not horsts. (it's almost like a major design consideration was avoiding existing patents, eh? 😉 )
chiefgrooveguruthe seat angle is way steeper so that means the reach, is much longer.
So in short the geometry isn't similar at all.
I'm well aware of the importance of reach, iirc the 2 degree difference in seat angle equates to about 20mm difference although it's not stated on LP. And whilst the geometry isn't identical we are comparing a very flawed (imo) 140mm trail bike and a 170mm "Enduro" bike. Similar is an entirely subjective term but for my money there isn't enough daylight between the two.
That was my initial suspicion, which was confirmed when I rode one. It's also obvious when you consider everyone advised the chap who bought one to go up a size. Or that poisonspider had to go up a size. On the one had lambasting me for being a sucker, and buying into modern trends but doing exactly that. Or that it's short in comparison to most current "enduro" bikes. The Capra's geometry was already behind current fashion/trend/design when it came out. Who wants to bet they won't revise it soon?
The Capra's geometry was already behind current fashion/trend/design when it came out.
Oh well I'm gonna cancel my order then. I only bought it because I thought I was on trend. 🙁
Don't worry, if you've bought a size bigger than the manufacturers sizing chart then your reach and ett are almost on trend. Not exactly on the bleeding edge but the new one will be.
@deanbfm, the horst link definition's very specific- it has to include a chainstay pivot near to and lower than the rear axle, none of those other systems meet that definition. They're 4-bars but not horsts. (it's almost like a major design consideration was avoiding existing patents, eh? )
You got me, i was maybe being a bit too liberal with the interchangeability between true 4 bar and horst link, i stand corrected (maybe if they wrote the original horst link patent in a more ambiguous, all encompassing manner, as you typically attempt to do with patents, you wouldn't have all these other legit variations).
O yea, i guess the main point i was trying to make above, it's not a general suspension you may/may may not like (not pointed at anyone in particular), it's what the designer/company has decided to compromise/optimise on, what they've decided is the best balance of compromises, peoples decisions, not a physical layout.
Transition Patrol may fit the bill?
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Good article on pinkbike today. Right on cue 😀
I'd love to put a geometry 'expert' (wearing a dog's cone collar from the vets) on some bikes. Find out if they really can feel a horst link! Ask them the steering angle and rake!
I'm not convinced everyone would know the wheel size.
I'm not convinced everyone would know the wheel size.
You should at least between 26 and 29 the bike will ride very differently.
Anyway back to the original question, I dunno why people rush off to these weird brands when the big ones have you covered with some quality bikes e.g. Trek Remedy
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really? A typical 29er hardtail will ride loads differently to a 650b enduro bike, sure.
But how much of that is wheel size?
A stone hitting the tyre a few mm's further up the 29er...
vs - head tube angle vastly different, rake / trail, height of bars, stem length, CoG of rider on the bike etc...
And wheel size is something most people think they can feel.
What about that horst link?
"I like horst links"
Does that statement even make sense?
Single pivot, virtual pivot, how is the shock compressed? There's so many parts of the suspension design that would affect the bike other than the horst link
A sensibly-designed horst link bike vs a sensibly- designed single pivot. That's what he means. Obviously. It's almost like you're being intentionally obtuse.
pjbarton - Member"I like horst links"
Best of all the animals
IME on a 29er you can really feel the gyroscopic stability, which like everything has its pros and cons.
SuperficialA sensibly-designed horst link bike vs a sensibly- designed single pivot. That's what he means. Obviously. It's almost like you're being intentionally obtuse.
Good old Singletrackworld; if you dismiss a £3000 bike because it's cheap or common well that's fine. Dismiss it based on empirical personal preference and a healthy dose of logic and people clamour to rip you apart.
Geometry is important, well that's sacrilege. Test ride a bike, ridiculous. Try to understand how it works, laughable. Magazine reviews are less than perfect, liar. Worst of all, dare to suggest that advancements in frame geometry is actually a good thing, well that's blasphemy right there in a land where people mock the idea of 50mm stems and bars wider than 710 are laughable and will see you stuck in the trees.
"IME on a 29er you can really feel the gyroscopic stability, which like everything has its pros and cons."
Yep, but weight would play a major part in gyroscopic effect too. How would a heavier 650b feel compared to a lighter 29er for instance? I'm not sure.
"Obviously. It's almost like you're being intentionally obtuse."
Not at all, just pointing out the myriad variables in bike design and rider influence - literally thousands of aspects coming together to influence the 'ride'.
Pulling out single aspects and angrily attacking / defending them is nonsense.
Anyway back to the original question, I dunno why people rush off to these weird brands when the big ones have you covered with some quality bikes e.g. Trek Remedy
This.
The bigger brands (although far from infallible) generally put out some great bikes...they have the R&D budget, the pro test riders etc....and the end result is usually very polished, rides brilliantly and due to economy of scale comes in at a reasonable price too....whats not to like?
Obviously everyone is different and some riders do genuinely want to help a new firm like 'Bird' get a foothold in the market, after all competition and choice is a good thing....but so many riders want to be different for the sake of being different, there's an element of 'look at me' about their bike choice....'see how much of a connoisseur i am?!'....even though the bike they're on is effectively being tested by the buying public due to limited R&D from the companies in question.
I had an (almost) unlimited amount to spend on my last FS, i'm not rich i'd just been saving and had the credit card ready also....i looked at British made, i love the industrial lines of an Orange-5, i liked the idea of the start-up Bird company....i love Nukeproof's stuff and for a 14st rider like me they seem built like tanks...i even canvassed opinion on here and was met with all the usual leftfield suggestions, Canfield this, Salsa that, Evil the other etc....Transition and Banshee pricked my interest and may be an option when i buy a DH bike next year but in the end i went for a....Giant.
Haha, why?!....i test rode one and was blown away.
The rear suspension is fantastic and really has had some magic worked into it (they can thank Dave Weagle for that but its a touchy litigious subject!), it actually firms up under pedalling....none of that horrible bobbing that seemed to plague other bikes i'd tested....the Alu mix Giant use seems impossibly light and i liked the fact i can swap between 140mm, 150mm and 160mm forks depending on what kind of riding i'm doing and Giant are fine with that and will honour the warranty....it has a normal tapered head tube, helicoiled post mount rear brake fittings, 135x10 or 142x12 dropouts that are easily interchangeable....and as a bonus they chucked in one of their own brand Giant Contact dropper posts...i also like the fact i walked into the shop to buy it, visited again recently to have the BB fitted (fitting was free, all i did was buy the hatefull pressfit thing).....so here i am out on the trails on a mass produced aluminium trail/enduro machine that is about as grey and anonymous as these things get, its even grey and black in colour!....but i dont care, it rides beautifully, has a comprehensive warranty and excellent main dealer back-up should i need it.....any money i have burning a hole in my pocket i'll spend on the best brakes and drivetrain i can get at the time as that will make more of a difference to me than whether the bike is 'on trend' with it's ETT/reach/whatever measurements!
Jimjam, your problem isn't necessarily what you are saying, it'd hour you are saying it that gets a negative reaction!
It's almost as if
but i dont care, it rides beautifully, has a comprehensive warranty and excellent main dealer back-up should i need it.....any money i have burning a hole in my pocket i'll spend on the best brakes and drivetrain i can get at the time as that will make more of a difference to me than whether the bike is 'on trend' with it's ETT/reach/whatever measurements!
You see - this ^^^^ just comes across as yet another 'why my bike choice is superior to other people's' post. Thought I would agree that some people on here dislike stuff purely for being popular/mainstream. I'd love an Enduro Expert Carbon but there's no way I'm going to spend £3500-£4000 on a bike.
Dismiss it based on empirical personal preference and a healthy dose of logic and people clamour to rip you apart.
You're confusing your own personal opinions with objective facts. It's a common problem on here. Everything about bikes is so subjective and when confirmation bias comes into play too it's impossible to make the kind of sweeping statements you are making with such certainty. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.....
I'd love to put a geometry 'expert' (wearing a dog's cone collar from the vets) on some bikes. Find out if they really can feel a horst link! Ask them the steering angle and rake!I'm not convinced everyone would know the wheel size.
Exactly - if there was a way of doing blind bike testing I think we'd quickly see how much pseudo-technical bollocks gets talked about bikes.
@ grum, but if you follow your logic it would be impossible to explain why you chose a particular bike, political party, religion, football team ect, without implying your choice is superior and everyone else is wrong.
Deviant can wax lyrical about his Giant all he likes. It doesn't suggest my choice was wrong only that for him he bought the right bike.
No but it's the fact that he's suggesting that he's just bought the bike he likes whereas other people are buying them for spurious reasons.
so many riders want to be different for the sake of being different, there's an element of 'look at me' about their bike choice....'see how much of a connoisseur i am?!'
Maybe true in some cases, but by saying 'look I don't care about all that stuff see' it's just another fashion statement: 'I'm cool because I don't care about being cool'.
I agree inverted snobbery exists on here in spades 😆 but so much of the talk is about boutique bikes, there's probably a feeling you have to somehow justify a more rational choice.
i haven't read all 8 (!) pages, but what about a liteville 301?
New Five might not be the cheapest option, but it's a bloody mint bike, especially for the Pennines and year-round riding. Robust, versatile, sorted angles, proven and ridiculously fun to ride.
Capra - a mate has one and it's nice enough. Not massively lighter than the Five though really, even though it's carbon. Pivots everywhere. And I wouldn't touch the Boss version with a bargepole - disaster waiting to happen.
Edit: just seen this, too. Might be a rare thing, but YT's response/solution is possibly something worth bearing in mind if you don't like being bikeless.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/yt-capra-woes
Don't they service Boss here in the UK now though ?
Its the e13 wheels Id not want on it.
i haven't read all 8 (!) pages
You haven't missed much, just me and JimJam bickering.
Nothing particularly constructive, so I wouldn't waste your time.
This thread has made me want that Specialized Enduro posted up near the beginning. Thanks thread.
On-One Codeine 27.5 £2000 - seems like a bargain
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Trimix - happened to be in a shop about 2 days ago and they were bemoaning the crappy support for the broken Boss forks they were fixing. Seems some things never change. Personally, I reckon Fox and Rockshox are good enough for anyone really, unless they're obsessed with bling or only ever ride their bike inside a NASA clean room.
This thread has made me not want to change my S Works Enduro, never understood geometry at school and reading all this hasn't helped. It does everything I want it to do and I think it looks good.
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Crikey, that Spesh must be quick, you've got a parachute on your back!! 😯
Defo not Enduro!
😉
Its a crash mat for when I fall. Abigales is faster but I cant work out why. Might it be the geometry.
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Waiting for the chute to open.
😆
You know when you ask a question and then part of you wishes you hadn't bothered? 😉
What you need is a Cotic Soul. Ticks all the boxes.. I think..
Had one - thought it was distinctly average.
Thanks tomaso for actually suggesting something along the lines of what I want - I'll look into the Patrols...
Codeine looks ok but by **** its ugly. Marzocchi forks must be an even bigger unknown than BOS are (which, incidentally, I've been running for about 2 years on my Five with no maintenance and no issues - they're awesome and I'd have another BOS equipped bike in an instant).