[Closed] What kind of trails do you need to ride before you need a BFe instead of a Soul?

When I asked Cy about this he said they made the BFe for drops the size of buildings, or words to that effect. I ride 4' drops on my Soul, am working on the confidence/skills for bigger ones and gap jumps. Doing some gravity enduros this year and hoping to do some downhill races on it too with the grand aim of not coming last!

My Soul seemed happy enough at fort william, though its wheels weren't. But it's all about the rider, I'm lightweight and usually pretty light on kit too, no doubt a heavier or harsher rider could break a Soul on stuff that I could do all year on one.

Has anyone here broken a Soul?

Surely the new soul frame that passes CEN safety standards suggests its a hard nut to crack. Like johnhe says you dont see many post CEN broken frames

you dont see many post CEN broken frames

Out of intrest, does the CEN apply to US frames ?

As a long term Soul owner (Mk 1), I can attest that Souls can take pretty much anything you can throw at it, or throw it down. It's comfy for riding all day, will rip singletrack all day long but can still go downhill and take big drops (done 5ft+ on mine).

Part of it depends on your components - especially with the new version that can take up to 140mm forks. If you fit big forks and burly wheels, it will be slightly slower uphill but the stability downhill allows you to go very quickly. With more racey wheels you'll get a lighter ride you might get pinged about a bit more on the downhills, but your singletrack experience is even snappier.

The BFe just adds to the snap - it's burlier (about 1lb heavier from memory) and much stiffer, so you get better power transfer and its even more fun on steep downhills, for jumping and doing drops and really technical stuff. But you can still ride it all day (I have a carbon post in mine, but have ridden a full week in the Pyrenees on it).

I read recently that frame stiffness has very little effect on power transfer - think it was on Sheldon Browns website.

Find a mirror.

Take a good look at yourself.

Now behave.

Anything can be ridden down anything, sometimes slowly, always with an eye on the prize.

Please reconsider your post.

Goodnight.

Cotic seem to sell two near identical hardtail frames as far as geometry and sizing go but they build one heavy and market it to wannabe AM/trail centre heroes as a super tough beater of a frame to pop off rad tabletops and little drops with and build the other lighter and market that as a more nimble XC style frame to your more sat in the saddle types. So how have they achieved this?
[s]the heavy one seems to use cheaper/heavier 631 tubing for the toptube and seattube and only one lovely 853 tube to warrant the much sought after Reynolds sticker while the lighter one seems to use much more of the ever so lovely 853 for the entire front triangle (ignoring BB shell and Headtube)...blah, blah...[/s] [b]Clever(ish) marketting and putting the two frames on separate pages of their website so punters will never bother to check for themselves[/b]

I'm struggling to see where TimB gets all this extra fun out of the heavier one while riding steeper downhills TBH but I'm willing to give it a go before dismissing it altogether

*heads off to the shed to bolt a lb and a half worth of stiffening braces to my 4lb Aluminium frame to allow me to have as much fun as Tim*
<EDIT>
Ohh.. wait, I've just read the lighter flexier version might be a snappier ride on singletrack
*removes braces and begins sanding down those overly stiff Aluminium tubes to a flexier diameter*

The heavy one does seem a better choice if you are heavy/clumsy/insist on having your un-suspended rear wheel crash through all that the latest stupidly long fork can take on right enough. 😉

it's not that the Soul will break. It's that the BFe is stiffer so doesn't get out of shape on the bigger, rougher, rockier stuff. The Soul is great until you start to really hammer it, then it's flexibility/suppleness starts to turns into less control/precision.

You need to be going pretty quickly mind, over rockier ground. And if you didn't have a BFe to compare it to, you might not reallt notice/mind. I've got both frames so I can compare them back to back, although the specs (forks mainly) are different so it's not the only variable.

IMHO you dont need to justify what bike you buy by riding a particular type of trail, its like asking how good a driver you have to be before buying a Ferrari. You shouldnt need to feel that you are only allowed something if you can justify it to others by using it in its intended environment.

I've ordered a BFe because I wanted something completely different to the bike I already have, a Commencal Super 4, which I'll still use for the all day xc stuff around the Mendips etc. I just think if i had ordered a Soul, it would leave me debating what I take out for a ride. Choosing the BFe means I have two awesome bikes for different moods with a bit of crossover in the middle...

The BFE is "more" bike than I will probably ever need but if the fat bald guy is allowed to pootle round bristol in his Ferrari, I can pootle round Afan on my BFe!

It's not what you ride, it's how you ride it and what sort of experience you want to get.

Because it was £100 cheaper when I wanted it.
Plus the seatpost can be dropped completely and it had a seattube diameter a dropper seatpost could fit into in the future (the Soul may have had this and probably does now)
I have a Simple that get's a bit noodly at times but that's the XC forks rather than the big beefy 20mm ones.
Forks at 140mm at the moment because they are but I'd prefer them shorter which will be done at the next service.
The rear end is certainly more solid feeling than the Simple.

The BFe is stiffer along its length and 150mm forks are a whole barrel of fun.

The bfe is built like a brick sh*t house. If you are looking for something that you can take downhilling, dirt jumping etc, then it is the one to go for, over the soul. Also if you are built like a brick sh*t house yourself, then it might be an idea to get a bfe.

Alternatively you might want the flexibility of running different seatposts, a stiffer frame and something a tad cheaper than a soul.

Horses for courses.

My BFe feels pretty lightweight after the Reign. Only ridden it a couple of times but it's a lot of fun and I haven't found it hash at all. It depends on what you are comparing it to I suppose. At 300 vs 480 the price is pretty compelling.

reggiegasket - Member

it's not that the Soul will break. It's that the BFe is stiffer so doesn't get out of shape on the bigger, rougher, rockier stuff. The Soul is great until you start to really hammer it, then it's flexibility/suppleness starts to turns into less control/precision.

But then it's also giving the bike a little more ability to react to impacts- a bit of give in a frame is a good thing IMO, the reason I sold my Mmmbop was that it was ridiculously stiff, which really undermined it at speed, it needed to be spoonfed in rock gardens etc where my Soul could be trusted to work out some of the details itself. All added up to better traction, much like running a bigger softer tyre.

But I think that's mostly personal taste tbh. Anyone else see that pic of Nico Vouilloz modified, machined down rear axle- designed to make the back of his bike less stiff. Whereas Lapierre threw resources at that bike to try and make it stiffer.

Northwind - Member

But then it's also giving the bike a little more ability to react to impacts- a bit of give in a frame is a good thing IMO, the reason I sold my Mmmbop was that it was ridiculously stiff, which really undermined it at speed, it needed to be spoonfed in rock gardens etc where my Soul could be trusted to work out some of the details itself. All added up to better traction, much like running a bigger softer tyre.

But I think that's mostly personal taste tbh. Anyone else see that pic of Nico Vouilloz modified, machined down rear axle- designed to make the back of his bike less stiff. Whereas Lapierre threw resources at that bike to try and make it stiffer.

This isn't the first time you've mentioned how (in your opinion), the stiffness of a frame can have a really big effect on handling and I'm still struggling to understand how this can be.

Tell Reggiegasket too? (also, tell Nico 😉 )

All I can really say to you is try it, I was surprised myself (and disappointed tbh)

Cy himself has said he would not recommend taking the Soul repeatedly off 2' drops to flat. This is why I got a Dialled PA instead and sold my Soul, the BFe just seemed a bit too....beefy.

Sounds like the BFe suits you more than the Soul johnhe.

To be fair to Cy/Cotic, they don't really hide the fact that the BFe and Soul (and many of their other frames too) are effectively the same design built for slightly different purposes. I reckon you would need to be a bit of a muppet to think they were trying to sell you the same frame two or three times. You decide what style of riding you want and pick the appropriate variant.

I wanted a 26" all round HT and could have gone Soul or BFe. I'm not a subtle rider, have always preferred fun-focussed overbuilt frames (Trailstar, Mr Hyde), wanted something that could take proper long travel forks, and needed something that went down to a proper shortarse size. Wasn't too bothered about weight and after a couple of emails to Paul at Cotic the BFe fitted the bill best.

I'll ride it on everything from local 'towpath' bimbles with my wife through to winching up and hooning down red graded trail centre descents (and any similar natural stuff I come across).

Johnhe, sounds like if you're a nimble, light rider then the Soul might be enough but if you're a clumsy bloater like me then the BFe might suit better. Cotic have some demo days coming up - can you get to any of those?

slainte ➡ rob

NW - tell Jared Graves. 😉 It aint black and white dude 😉

Nico rode some pretty ****ed up mods in his time

Its down to the rider. 2-3 foot drops dont really count in my opinion, any mountain bike frame should be able to handle a 2-3 foot drop. Afterall it is mountain biking not road riding we're on about.

If you want to ride downhill/dirt jumps/street/downhill tracks in the alps then get a BFe. If you ride round trail centres or up and down mountains then get the Soul.

I bent and dented my seatstay on my Soul to the extent it's now not safe to ride.
I got in contact with cotic and ordered a new one today & they gave me a nice discount as a crash replacement.
I've got a few bikes including an Orange 5 and find myself riding the Soul more than the rest put together.
Three things that I would recommend when building one though are
1. Fit a double and bash (36/24)
2. Fit a height adjustable fork
3. Fit a dropper seat post
These additions would give you one very versatile bike.

The crash I had would have damaged any bike as it fell on rocks from a height of about 15 feet.

Buy a soul, you won't regret it.

Tell Reggiegasket too? (also, tell Nico )

All I can really say to you is try it, I was surprised myself (and disappointed tbh)

You're saying a completely different thing to Reggiegasket though - he's saying that a compliant frame like the Cotic Soul results in loss of control on rough terrain as its too springy (which makes some sense to me if the frame was really springy). Whereas you are saying the opposite - that it was the stiffness of your Mmmbop which made it difficult to control on rough terrain.

My comment above applies to you too Rudedog (ignore the mtb supetstar man crush content 😉 )

I could sell you my Soul frame much cheapness it's only had 1 careless owner. 😉

Herman, I remembered you saying that before and when I spoke to Cy about a mech hanger for my Soul I brought that up, the response being that the Soul is a very strong frame and fine for the sort of riding I do (4' drops being mentioned by me), the BFe is strong enough for really big stuff (and the crashes that DJing entail) and also a cheaper way of getting a Soul-like bike at a small weight penalty. I pop off a few 2' drops on the way home from work most days, and bigger stuff on most rides. I'm not expecting it to break soon!

rudedog - Member

You're saying a completely different thing to Reggiegasket though

Well, not really- but we're both saying that the stiffness of a bike has an effect on handling. He considers the difference to be positive, I think it's negative, because that's a matter of taste but we both believe there's a difference.

PS:

Me: But I think that's mostly personal taste tbh.

GW: NW - tell Jared Graves. It aint black and white dude

😉

Cy himself has said he would not recommend taking the Soul repeatedly off 2' drops to flat.

Soul < 2 ft drops, bfe > 2 ft drops. Singletrack at it's finest. LMAO.