[Closed] What happened to the mountain bike industry?

we've turned into a bunch of jaded cynical miserable old g*ts.

+1

Plus the weather is sh*te and the trails a bog fest.

Saying that this obsession with 'standards' is a joke, wish the jurno's would stop parroting the line that they are standards, when they aren't in a the majority of cases.

BD nails it really, in the eyes of the general public, road bikes are more cool. I've many friends in the running world, who are happy to try out road biking as an alternate sport, but the idea of MTB just doesn't appeal. I've seen it in the floor space given over to them in a lot of the shops that used to be more or less exclusively mountain bike based. (the exception to this is in areas where the mountain biking is exceptional) Just look at the different treatment of two world champions, Lizzie Armistead, and Rachel Atherton for conformation, one invited to be a contender for SPOTY, the other.....

On the wheel debate, I think it's a function of the way our particular market works. The UK is pretty unique in the way we buy and build bikes. Buying a frame and then separate components, is exactly opposite to how the two largest bike buying markets operate (Germany and the USA) where the norm is to buy a new complete bike every few years, so the idea of a different wheel size or axle standard is less of a problem

Since when is road biking cool??

Its only done when its too crappy to ride your MTB or to do some stealth training!

Since when is road biking cool??

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The 2 things road has is the TdF and track cycling yep indoor road riding....
what makes them so popular? 5 rings - until we started smashing the world at the Olympics and every 4 years the bike programme actually delivered most people in the street would have no idea. The kick on to the TdF and the Team Sky thing have lifted it right up, at the front of this were 2 massive personalities who helped capture the imagination
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Doing the one is better than the other crap is a little dull, one gets a bigger profile MTB is still booming, compared to when I started and you would hardly meet another rider some days on a busy day I see loads. UK was busy with riders, Utah was heaving with them, NZ is, Aus has them all over. All just getting out and riding. Not bemoaning the great conspiracy to end 8sp and Sq taper BB's (which you can still probably buy)
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What they forgot was that if it aint broke don't fix it.

rubbish...its all about progress.

would anyone buy a 26" wheel bike today next to an identically specced & priced 27 or 29" bike....honestly?

If you're a bike manufacturer, importer or bike shop (today) would you put your money into 26" bikes?

if you have spent 12 months developing new bikes / components and god knows how much $$$ would you market your new product as...'slightly better'?

we are old enough to see through most of the marketing and should be wise enough to make a calculated decision when buying new stuff.

I started with a Raleigh Bomber, snapped the frame twice. Rejoined the off road worship some years later and have done so for the last 25 years. What I like about mtb is that it's f*****g hard. Not as in 100's of miles of riding until your arse melts climbing Welsh mountains in sportives I mean as in a two hour ride has you fighting the bike, dabbing your feet and scaring yourself when you nearly fall off (or fall off). When you ride back through a city centre after a muddy ride and when at traffic lights "youths" make comment about your obvious awesomeness. When you get home you breath a sigh of relief that you made it in one piece and think to yourself how great that 2 hour ride was. Road ride for 2 hours? Stay clean? Different market altogether, different people and I for one am happy to see it that way, keeps the trails empty for my perverse fun. People who buy into mtbing with 6k bikes rarely last long and gravitate to road for the reasons above I reckon.

@David taylforth

Too much rubbish (niche) - people just need to start riding bikes again. Preferably single speeds or fat bikes

I don't see an industry in decline and I suspect you see what you want to. I see one which has a rich rainbow of choice - 4x/freeride/jump/xc/HT/FS/enduro/allmountain/DH/Fatbikes/SS

Road = CX or well, road and that is it - you could add touring I suppose but I see that as a transportation choice rather than a "sport cum hobby"

would anyone buy a 26" wheel bike today next to an identically specced & priced 27 or 29" bike....honestly?

Yeah.

Me.

Saved myself over £1000 on a bike. I've a new carbon framed 150mm fs bike (to replace a stolen Blur LT) specced with xt, tubeless Mavic rims, Revelation DP Air & a few other nice bits.

The newer standard would have cost me a lot more. Are my wheels still round? Yes. Am I still having fun? Yes. Have I saved myself a lot of money? Yes. Would I be having any more fun on different sized wheels? Most definitely questionable..

You can keep your progress if it saves me money & I'm having fun at your expense....

would anyone buy a 26" wheel bike today [b]next to an identically specced & priced 27 or 29" bike[/b]....honestly?

Yeah.

Me.

Saved myself over £1000 on a bike. I've a new carbon framed 150mm fs bike (to replace a stolen Blur LT) specced with xt, tubeless Mavic rims, Revelation DP Air & a few other nice bits.

The newer standard would have cost me a lot more.

So you got something better for cheaper which wasn't the question. If they were the same spec and price would your choice have been the same.

well you won't see an identically specced 26, 27.5 and 29

29 is more likely to be an xc (race/tour) bike, 27.5 a trail/dh bike, and I'd buy (or more likely build) the one that would suit what I want it for.

the whole thing is/was self-selecting statistics, and self fulfilling prophecy.
I held off buying at least one bike, because I didn't want 650b, and wanted to let the market sort itself out. Of course buy not buying a 26er, and mfrs only putting 650b on the market, to them "people only want 650b". Now 26er's are dead, and may as well have square wheels, if I buy a new bike, it may reluctantly be 650b, helping confirm that 650b was the right marketing move.

of course now just at the point where wheel diameter has just about sorted itself, and X12 (or similar) just about become the rear axle standard, someone comes along and creates hubs a few mm wider, probably because some German company is getting patent royalties rather than Trek/Spesh. So now what do I do? Buy 650b/X12? or wait to see if a fractionally wider hub spacing becomes standard? rinse and repeat.

My 2007 26er Soul with 120mm forks 1 1/8th straight steerer and QR dropouts both ends, funnily enough, still works exactly like it did in 2007/2008.

Yeah.

Me.

great, glad your happy...now go spend the cash you saved on a awesome coffee machine or get a log burner installed! haha

I think a newcomer looking for a first mtb must get confused...its a minefield!

road bikes are simple...race or relaxed geo. more cash means lighter. thats about it. simples.

PS and yes I am holding off at least a year on a new road/cx bike specifically to let the disc brake fitting standard, fork QR standard etc. sort itself out.
But at least as an MTBer I'll be more pro disc brake than a typical roadie might be, several/most of whom are probably at that point where they're still wondering "what's the point?".
So that's 2 bikes the industry haven't sold, because of marketing, or change.

I think a newcomer looking for a first mtb must get confused...its a minefield!

Not really, they'll go into a bike shop and get offered a bike, if it's fits and it's about what they want to spend, they'll buy it.

It's only complex on forums.

For me ultimately, its down to the fact that Road cycling has maintained its history, the races, events, and even the wheel size.

when mountain biking was popular, road cycling didnt decline, just a lot of road guys bought mountain bikes.

But where mountain biking ultimately has gone wrong is that there have never been clubs, classic races, or culture and history that have been maintained, everything is always changing and people are bored of all the change.
it doesnt know what it wants to be, the manufacturers are trying to be all things to all people and are constantly dividing the market in to more and more niche segments.

This is good and bad, but ultimately from what I see, its killing the industry.
As for the major brands, when me and my mates were discussing a new bike this year, none of us had anything on our list that we were excited about. We have good bikes and nothing new is standing out as any better than what we have, I am going for a custom carbon 650b full sus as there isnt anything that I want from the brands.

But also the people who grew up with mountain biking like me are now well past 40 and arent looking to really advance our jump skills or looking for ever more tech. its simply about a good day out on the bike and all you need for that is a good hardtail. A bit like 25 years ago.
The appeal of the road is that you can go with a club and meet hundreds of people, stop at nice cafes and have a social life.

IMO

Not really, they'll go into a bike shop and get offered a bike, if it's fits and it's about what they want to spend, they'll buy it

If they were the same spec and price would your choice have been the same.

That's not possible though is it?

I can't answer an impossible question can I!

mrlebowski - Member
That's not possible though is it?

I can't answer an impossible question can I?

Well hello Mr Dude, I guess you can't but maybe just maybe you could imagine the situation like the choice between brown bread or white bread for lunch, same sandwich just you have always had white bread, this new stuff is meant to better..

Even the UCI (and Olympics) can't make up its mind.
Olympics only has one discipline plus BMX. UCI dropped about the only potentially televisable (exciting) form of MTBing (aka 4X), and Olympics aren't going to do 4X and BMX, since they're the same apart from wheel size, number of competitors, and smoothness or track.
XCE was a waste of time.
Enduro has changed so much that it's NOT "just going for a ride like what we do" any more, and is inherently not televiseable.
DH is only on redbull etc. so has status like XGames, and not "proper" sport, even if UCI sanctioned with rainbow stripes technically carry same status as those won by the likes of Cav. Outside of MTB forums, I doubt if anyone even knew how many medals were won by Brits in recent years. 5 out of 6 in DH 2 years ago, with a female podium clean sweep? I call that pretty damn good for the UK bike industry. Shame that it barely even got a mention on BBC website, unlike every Gold of a track cycling championships.
And with Sky/TeamGB track so dominant a few years back, sadly the only way is down (even if we do still have some ace riders).

rubbish...its all about progress

And the opposite of the jaded old cynic is the enthusiast who thinks every change is "progress".

And you can still buy square taper, so I'm happy.

Well hello Mr Dude, I guess you can't but maybe just maybe you could imagine the situation like the choice between brown bread or white bread for lunch, same sandwich just you have always had white bread, this new stuff is meant to better..

But I can go out & buy a loaf of white or a loaf of brown for the same money with similar quality....

I can't do that with 26/650/29 can I..

Ask me a question that is answerable in the real world & with some practical application. Not something that is hypothetical!

Though, as an intellectual exercise I'll answer your question:

Maybe. I'm not convinced of the "progress" that's been made with the new wheel size standards & since all my other bikes are 26 it makes no sense to add another size to complicate matters.

sefton - Member

rubbish...its all about progress.

Some things are about process. Marginally different wheelsizes aren't. They're about offering something that's functionally almost identical but with a veneer of exciting newness, so that you tweak all your existing products slightly and make them "new" rather than actually designing new things.

Which ironically held back progress, because much of the effort that could have gone into real innovation instead went into making things a little bit bigger. Hey, tyre designer, what did you do today? I invented the highroller. And what was the hardest thing about that? Making it work exactly the same as the old highroller. Hey, engineer, what did you do today? I redesigned this fork for a slightly different axle. Why? I don't really know. How about that upgraded lighter stronger chassis? Didn't have time.

The irony is just blaming "the bike industry" for this, because it works. This sort of marginal change sells tons of bikes. People aren't being duped, they're being given what they want. Turns out the bike buying public don't care that much about progress- most of them just want to buy a bike and the rest want 1 more gear and a chart that says you're rolling over things better even if you can't feel it.

After riding it from new, I've just stripped downn my '98 Hei Hei and put the parts on a 2010 Handjob. I can apreciate the difference in geometry and also the advantages of the 15mm axle I upgraded to last year, so I'm not averse to change despite riding 'out of date' bikes.
Having ridden 29er's I can also see that a different wheel size can make a difference - but Boost? I'm sorry, that whole concept is a load of money making pony and has stopped me buying a new frame for the next couple of years.
I don't think the sport is in terminal decline, it's just returning to normal levels after a bit of a surge.

Good multi-faceted read (skimmed..) of some takes on the MTB world as a whole, made my coffee break ..

Was the old one so bad it needed to be disposed of? A quite categorical no.

Then why try to ditch it so quickly if it wasn't an attempt to force people onto a new size & make new purchases?

I've said it before but I don't think that's the aim, it may be the effect and perception though. In general from talking to product managers and OE parts makers etc, I'd say the 'industry' is a load of brands scrambling to keep up with whatever they see as the big thing for the next 2-3 years and it's as much guesswork from them as it is us, or us as it is you - not sure where I stand there, I'd say a rider first and I'm not working on top-end tech (thankfully?) either so can sit back and observe a lot of this scrambling while thinking it through with a little more time to play with. Much of the product change-rate is due to the worry that since buyers are sharp and demanding if you don't move on you'll lose out.
Most of us don't totally understand all the options or know what we want next so we want to try different stuff, neither do/so do the bike brands. There's a hope it all lines up and settles then someone fires out some new-tech and there's a scramble to follow, or not, depending on competition, strategy etc, or just how your current line-up sits in it's life cyle.
There's been alienation as a side-effect of product people wanting to use what they see as the best option (commercially and in use) for the near future. Pros and cons of development. If you're a big, influential catch-all brand you need to cover most likely customer-demand bases and protect your position - that's where it gets difficult as the effect of that influences smaller brands and then buyers.

I have a lot of respect for brands that show some consistency or don't move with the times every time there's a trend shift. Specialists, often. Some of those brands also are way ahead on a few trends but not many. They tend to be the things they truly believe in and have been working on well in advance of the market rather than a PM being assigned to "do the next big thing that everyone's onto for 2018".

In my eyes (many others will not see it) this is progress.
My first MTB was an Alu Orange HT that snapped, I bent the forks that were on it landing a small jump, I cracked the rims after lots of gritty v braked rides, it wouldn't fit a decent width tyre, the wheels flexed massively into corners and I got a lot of punctures if I didn't run super high pressures. I had massive fun on that bike.

Now I have reliable disc brakes that don't need bled monthly.
Tubeless Tyres
Wide Rims
a great range of gears running from a single chain ring that needs no chain device
a 140mm bike that comes in around 28lb with nowt that special on it
Seat posts that go up and down
Stiffer wheels with ridiculously easy to use axles
Bars in a choice of width
Suspension that works really well

This sort of marginal change sells tons of bikes. People aren't being duped, they're being given what they want. Turns out the bike buying public don't care that much about progress- most of them just want to buy a bike and the rest want 1 more gear and a chart that says you're rolling over things better even if you can't feel it.

If that's the case, then we aren't as smart as we think we are..

For the record I agree with pretty much all of your post. The MTB industry has largely followed pretty much standard marketing strategy.

I don't mind new tech, but I'll never have a press fit bottom bracket! (work of the devil I tell you!)

Thing is everyone grumbles about wheel sizes changing, but 29ers are an improvement, and if it hadn't been chance could well have been the original wheel size anyway.

If only Trek, Spesh, Giant, Shimano and SRAM sat down and agreed some proper standards then things would be great.

My bike is less than 3 years old and hasn't yet been ridden enough justify replacing it. Fortunately it is a tremendously capable machine - despite its 26" wheels - and I don't seem to be anywhere near getting bored of it, breaking it or outgrowing it. I'll continue to spend money on components as they wear out but I've got over my faux-anger at ever-changing standards.

I rode in Australia back in October and they laugh at us UK lot getting hung up about our precious 26ers 🙂

would anyone buy a 26" wheel bike today next to an identically specced & priced 27 or 29" bike....honestly?

dragon - Member

Thing is everyone grumbles about wheel sizes changing, but 29ers are an improvement, and if it hadn't been chance could well have been the original wheel size anyway.

I don't think that many people grumble about 29ers- that genuinely did add choice and something pretty different.

but I'll never have a press fit bottom bracket! (work of the devil I tell you!)

just found a possible 650b (29er would have been better), 3x8/9/10/11 capable bike with 73mm BSA, that might be my late christmas present to myself.

It's a tough one - I used to get quite worked up over the wheelsize debate but realised that I was swimming against the tide because one way or another, 26inch has more or less been killed off. I've since had two 650b hardtails and you know what? I really liked them. Both Switchbacks - one steel then I went N-1, selling that and my Banshee for the Ti version.

Is 650b worlds apart from 26inch? No. Is it better? Possibly. Am I still having fun? Yes. I've come to realise that a good bike is a good bike.

Some of the tinkering with long established 'standards' is annoying though - BB's, headtubes, axle sizes, boost etc.

I think that it is down to companies trying to improve things for us plus breathe life into a mature market. The tech we take for granted these days is pretty impressive and can be cheap. Look at disc brakes - I remember how much a pair of Hope C2's cost when then first came out. Compare that to a pair of Deore brakes that work better and cost bobbins.

As said before, road cycling is more accessible so is easy to grow plus it has the Tour, Olympics etc to promote it. There are also an awful of MTBers now dabbling / crossing over.

If you travel to palces like Cannock, 'Degla, FOD there are often lots of shiney, new, high end bikes out. What I have noticed is that there are an awful lot of things like YT Capras being ridden so maybe buying habits are changing to direct sales as people look for better value because prices do seem to be ever increasing. We are also really lucky with lots of purpose built trails - I remember spending a lot of time building trails and them only for them to be torn down because they weren't sanctioned.

Boost? I'm sorry, that whole concept is a load of money making pony and has stopped me buying a new frame for the next couple of years.

Hmmmm, the "problem" with 29er wheels is how stiff they're not. Boost is an attempt to over come that, and TBH, as annoying as it is, I'd rather all the wheel and axle sizes get sorted out, and that IS beginning to happen finally. I can run my frankly more than capable 26" into so much carbon paste for the next couple of years, and then change the whole blinking lot.

Ok - tried skimming this, it hasn't worked. Can someone sum it up for me?
Q's
1 - is MTB really in decline?
2 - Is the perceived/real decline in consumer spend OR people out MTBing?

3 STW is not representative of the real world

Press fit is progress of sorts, as it is cheaper to make press fit fames and hence good for the manufacturers. There was a good article on Bottom Brackets in Cyclist magazine a while back.

A yes Hope C2's they scared the sh*t out of me on a big road descent in the rockies, I'd have taken a set of V's or road calipers over them in those circumstances. Thankfully disc brakes have improved considerably since.

prices do seem to be ever increasing

I wonder how much this has to do with things. Top end bikes have always been expensive, but when a top end bike approaches the cost of a brand new car then things are out of hand IMO.

does it matter if MTB is in decline? I'm nearly 40 so i'm in decline too. i`m still out in the local woods in the pissing rain, going sideways, and having more fun than is appropriate. if less people are biking this is a good thing as i get more of the place to myself.

i'm not fussed with new kit though so maybe i'm just weird.

prices do seem to be ever increasing

I wonder how much this has to do with things. Top end bikes have always been expensive, but when a top end bike approaches the cost of a brand new car then things are out of hand IMO.

prices do seem to be ever increasing

I wonder how much this has to do with things. Top end bikes have always been expensive, but when a top end bike approaches the cost of a brand new car then things are out of hand IMO.

I often wonder how true this is, it should also always be accompanied by a pic of an EWS style pro rider specced SANTA CRUZ with the implication that all bikes cost that much and it's the only one they sell.

The price range has probably increased more and the value has significantly increased at the entry level, things like SLX were a bit of a game changer there, solid, dependable, non flashy good value.
Spec start at 2k for a FS bike these days with the camber having some decent kit on it
http://www.specialized.com/gb/gb/bikes/mountain/camber/camber-comp-650b
back in 04 when I was buying my Enduro I think the base model was around 1300-1500,
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/flash/default.aspx
Bang that through an inflation calculator and 1500 in 04 comes out as 2057 in 2014.

STW is not representative of the real world

this, a thousand times this.

normal people don't upgrade/build/change their bikes, they generally fall into 1 of 2 camps

1. buy a new bike, ride it and then buy a new one after a year or two/when the finance paid off. new standards have little impact as their bikes are still new enough and nothing major gets replaced in the time they ride it they're gonna change it soon regardless

2. buy a new bike, ride it for years and years and years until its utterly shagged. standards have little impact as the only things they replace are consumable parts (which are all still available) as their bike will pretty much remain in OEM spec until something breaks.

Then you have the 'enthusiast' in camp 3, bike builders, frame swappers with serial upgraditis who fall into that trap of either having stuff that's so new it's hard to get bits for and wont work with our other N bikes, or stuff that's a few years old that we want to update, all the consumables are available but more major or structural parts (which camp 1. dont care about as they've swapped before 'old', and camp 2. don't care about because they're still using the OEM fitted bits anyway) are harder to 'upgrade' as all the new stuff is for new standards.

There's also very few 'standards' which have actually got tot he point where it's properly obsolete and you'd have to bin a bike because you can't get parts. You mgiht not be able to walk into an LBS and pick them up off the shelf but parts to keep most bikes form the last 50 years going are available from suppliers on order or via the internet, the only exceptions really are manufacturer proprietary parts, but that's a different ball game regardless of standards, and even then NOS and 2nd hand is an option.

The standards and compatibility issue only becomes an issue if you intend to upgrade parts or change stuff, most people don't, they buy a bike, with the parts it comes with and then ride it.

27.5/650B annoys me in principle for being somewhat forced, but in reality it will have zero impact on me. All my bikes are 26 at the moment, but the 26 specific parts (tyres, rims, er...*) will still be available so no issue there, if/when I replace the bikes then it'll probably be 650B as that's what 'new' bikes will be, but then that'll be fine as I'll start buying 650B tyres instead.

* I look after my forks so can keep them going without much bother, and worst case there's 2nd hand, or NOS, or use a 650B fork if I absolutely must, it'll still work.

Some things are about process. Marginally different wheelsizes aren't. They're about offering something that's functionally almost identical but with a veneer of exciting newness, so that you tweak all your existing products slightly and make them "new" rather than actually designing new things.

in my experience changing from a 26" xc bike to a 29" xc bike is an improvement. in fact I think the bigger wheels are much better

cant comment on 27.5 (my gut says the real world difference between 26 & 27.5 must be tiny)

my new mtb was high spec...now its a little outdated stood next to the new model...this hurts the ego

prices do seem to be ever increasing

they're really not.

back in the day (summer of 1994, to be precise), a decent hardtail was about £700.

(Orange clockwork, Rocky Mountain Hammer, etc.)

that's about £1200 in today's money. except now you can get forks and brakes that actually work, on a bike that still costs £700.

bikes have never been cheaper, or better.

in a way, i'm sort of amazed that mtb's are still selling. Let's go back to 1994, to the Nationals at Malvern, i'll even put '2 Princes' on the tape player.....

(wibbly-wobbly time-travel special effects)

see how crap the bikes are?

see how easy the course is? - it would be considered easy for a cross race these days. But here and now, in 1994, it's the pinnacle of national mtb, there's even a Dh race, it'll be won by someone riding a rigid klein*.

but it's still more interesting/difficult/fun than the trails most people have access to back home in 2015.

modern mtb's are now so good that they're kind of pointless for the off-road adventures experienced by most people, but still they sell.

because they're ****ing awesome, and great fun, and cheap.

(*or was that 1992?)

oh look at the CRC add below...11spd sram cassette £195...jesus!

Haven't used my MTB in a couple of years now. Mostly because of relocation but also, I became fed-up with driving to ride.

As for kit, I smelt marketing BS as soon as I started seeing reviews of 29ers. The impression I got with the introduction of 29ers was that it was an industry driven product to sell to all of us, an additional bike.
Then there was the tapered fork stuff and now I basically view the movement away from common component geometric standards as another lever to have me open up my wallet, etc. Some may argue it's part of business to innovate new ways to get the public to spend. It certainly doesn't seem to have hurt Apple, for example.

On the technical front, IIRC the justification for a larger wheel was "better" roll-over on certain types of terrain. However, I view longer forks and rear triangle as potentially providing more "flex".

I'll keep my 26" wheel MTB, I'm impervious to MTB snobbery, so were I to ride with folk who used carbon 29ers, it wouldn't bother me one jot!

In the meanwhile, my relocation means road is easier, it's straight out the door and I simply enjoy road more at the moment.

And if that isn't good enough for you lot.... I blame Lance!
😆

As for kit, I smelt marketing BS as soon as I started seeing reviews of 29ers. The impression I got with the introduction of 29ers was that it was an industry driven product to sell to all of us, an additional bike.

...
I'll keep my 26" wheel MTB, I'm impervious to MTB snobbery, so were I to ride with folk who used carbon 29ers, it wouldn't bother me one jot!

Or in summary, didn't bother trying one but knows they are pointless.

Love my 29r XC bike excellent what it does, rolls better, bit quicker and very fit for purpose.