[Closed] Warranty - does this seem fair?

Sounds like a he said she said argument, which would be a pain to fight, but worth pushing to maybe lower the price again, the age comment sounds like they’re saying as it’s so new, we’ll give you 50% off, rather than because it was so old.

You might get better putting in a formal complaint on the build standard, but they do usually throw in those ‘checklists’ on bike checks to cover this usually.

No, tell them to sort it for free.

not sure why age is a factor as i only rode it 3 times since new.

When did you buy it?

The missing locknut is as you point out going to be border line impossible to prove one way or other without a photo of the bike as delivered.

As for bolts etc not being tight I'm pretty sure you'll find "check before every ride" in the o and m for your bike.

I'd possibly push back a bit on the cranks and see if there was any improvement to be made, probably with reference to the "ready to ride" status you mention but equally I'd very much chalk it up to my own foolishness rather than a seller fault.
I'd expect to run round all the nuts and bolts quickly on a boxed bike before I rode it but that's absolutely an opinion rather than any sort of fact.

As for the age, as argee says, I think they're saying "it's only a few weeks old and that's a really harsh lesson so we'll help as much as we can."

Wheel nuts?

yup this bike has them on the rear wheel

So i bought a bike online from a large retailer.

he wheel nuts

BSO?

So i bought a bike online from a large retailer.

he wheel nuts

BSO?

Mentions commuting so I'm going to go benefit of the doubt and say hub gears.

Was the bike pdi’d before it was sent to you or sent in a box as it was sent from the factory.

https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses - edit, not the right info as the bike has been used, the point is you have the right to a working bike from the retailer, which has nothing to do with a warranty unless you've had the bike a while.

Mentions commuting so I’m going to go benefit of the doubt and say hub gears.

Close - its an e-bike if that helps 🙂

Was the bike pdi’d before it was sent to you or sent in a box as it was sent from the factory.

not sure what pdi is but it was built for me by the retailer and came in their box not from the factory.

Reject it, demand your money back in full and buy a bike from a local retailer who'll treat you properly, look after you and ensure the bike they're selling you is safe to ride. That crank arm could've come off causing you to crash and injure yourself...or if in traffic even worse. Any retailer who cant sort this basic stuff out isn't worth giving your hard earned to.

Perhaps this is one of those things but the retailers blurb suggests you just need to twist the handlebars round and you are good to ride.

I've had two of these, one of them had (from memory)
- loose brake caliper.
- three of the four stop screws were adjusted such that the mech didn't move far enough.
- both cables incorrectly adjusted (only had access to 9 of 11 gears at the back due to stop screws and cables).
- top shock bolt was only finger tight.
- headset bearing upside down.
- hose nut on one brake was finger tight

All but the top shock bolt i fixed before the first ride. The shock bolt i fixed after the first 100m off road.

The blurb from the manufacturer says turn bars, fit wheels and pedals, then ride.

The detailed blurb in the manual that comes with the bike has a HUGE list of things that need to be checked before the first ride, and they recommend a professional mechanic does it...

(the other bike just needed tyres turning round and all the lock nuts (2x disc 1x cassette) tightening properly.))

Also, what bike with a 90 quid chainset still has nuts on the rear axle?

I'll ask again:

not sure why age is a factor as i only rode it 3 times since new.

When did you buy it?

PDI - Pre-Delivery Inspection.

not sure why age is a factor as i only rode it 3 times since new.

When did you buy it?

I’ll ask again:

Sorry missed that due to the wheel nut diversion 😉

Think i had it for a total of about 10 days. I'm only going in to work twice a week thus only rode it a couple of times.

Sorry missed that due to the wheel nut diversion 😉

Think i had it for a total of about 10 days. I’m only going in to work twice a week thus only rode it a couple of times.

I was asking because I thought you may have been one of those people who bought a bike two years ago, let it rust in their shed, and then complain to the shop that it doesn't work. 😀

its an e-bike if that helps

Ahh, all sorts of weird specs on those.

I'd reread the terms and if there's no mention of needing to be built (rebuilt?) by a professional, either reject it as not fit for purpose (what's the latest terminology?), or insist on a free repair.

Have seen some shady companies claiming that bolts sometimes "just come loose".

Not if they've been fitted properly...

PDI – Pre-Delivery Inspection.

Ahh! Yes it had a checklist in the box.

I’d reread the terms

What's in the instructions?

Have seen some shady companies claiming that bolts sometimes “just come loose”.

Not if they’ve been fitted properly…

Yes and no. Bikes vibrate when you ride them, and you don't need an engineering degree to work out what vibrations do to bolts. When I worked in the food industry, we had qualified, well paid people working on our machines, but still needed metal detectors to catch the occasional bolt that had fallen off. The only bolt that you can guarantee won't fall off is on an unridden bike.

Assuming this is a Shimano-like crank, the crank shouldn't fall off if the pinch bolts have been correctly tightened. The 'locking nut' is just for preload, it's only plastic after all. So, nope this doesn't sound fair to me. As a whole the bike was faulty.

What kind of crank is it? If it's Shimano then the 'lock nut' has no influence on whether the crank stays on or not, it's just there for pre-loading. It's made out of soft plastic, and just gets squeezed off if the crank is already loose. If it's SRAM, or SRAM-copy, then it should have arrived with you tightened to 50nm, and there's is no earthly way it's coming loose from there.

The absence of a 'lock nut' just shows they didn't fit the cranks properly.

The wheel thing just sounds like a poor quality build, they should be retensioning that for you. I'm not sure you can prove the poor indexing was there from the start.

What kind of crank is it?

Shimano Claris.

I'd be pushing back quite strongly I think!

It's a pretty serious safety issue if that wasn't checked.

Could have resulted in quite an injury if that had happened in busy traffic. Sorting it for free is the least they could do.

Reject it, demand your money back in full and buy a bike from a local retailer who’ll treat you properly,

I've been looking this stuff up today (see thread on chat) - This sounds to me like an "exercise your right to cancel within 30 days" situation and get a refund.

Shimano Claris.

That's hollowtech, isn't it? In that case what they have told you is complete bollocks.

I did take a picture of the bike when i got it out of the box but annoyingly it was the wrong side so can't confirm

My initial thought was that it came off pretty quickly, normally i'd have expected a bit of noticable play then the lock nut would stop the crank detatching which is why i wonder if it was on there in the firstplace.

It also has one of those nylon locking tabs that engage in the little hole in the crank but there was so much grease on the crank itself it appeared to be stuck up in the the slot

Cranks fall off bikes for one reason and one alone. The fact it fell off whilst you were riding it signals incorrect assembly. That's a warranty issue at the very least. It's certainly a liability issue if they stated it had received a pre-ride inspection. Wheelnuts, well less so, they can come a little loose on hub and fixed wheel bikes with use. But cranks do not come off bikes. As simple as that.

Bikes vibrate when you ride them, and you don’t need an engineering degree to work out what vibrations do to bolts. When I worked in the food industry, we had qualified, well paid people working on our machines, but still needed metal detectors to catch the occasional bolt that had fallen off

A well designed, well fitted and well maintained bolted jointed shouldn't fail.

I'd put the failures down to a lack of a sufficient PDI check performed by a adequately trained person. Seems the bike shop in question has been very quick to direct all blame away, when infact they are mostly likely the root cause.

Throw them the link to consumer rights and not fit for purpose and point out their responsibilities, if they can't do that, reject it as per your rights.

Page 14 on this.

It's not a 'lock nut', it's a 'cap'. You use it to set the preload on the bearings before you stick the locking plate thingy into the right spot and tighten up the pinch bolts.

If the pinch bolts come loose, the locking plate is supposed to stop the crank detaching entirely as you're riding down a hill at 35mph. The end cap makes no difference at all, on its own it will give way very quickly once the crank is loose.

So they potentially did two things wrong - they didn't properly and evenly torque the pinch bolts, and they didn't engage the locking plate properly.

I've done it a couple of times (and trashed the splines) when my spannering was even worse than it was now, but this retailer created a significant risk of injury to you.

That’s hollowtech, isn’t it? In that case what they have told you is complete bollocks

Agreed.

normally i’d have expected a bit of noticable play then the lock nut would stop the crank detatching which is why i wonder if it was on there in the firstplace.

HTii cranks tend to just let go when they go, you might have noticed it for a few yards but it is that quick.

[HTii] Cranks fall off bikes for one reason and one alone. The fact it fell off whilst you were riding it signals incorrect assembly

This sounds to me like an “exercise your right to cancel within 30 days” situation and get a refund

Reject it under the CRA 2015, in writing, as faulty/not fit for purpose. Tell them if you want a replacement, repair or refund* (time frame may dictate this)

*Right to a refund isn't clear cut but most places won't argue it, equally assuming you're otherwise happy with it it's the least best option.

A well designed, well fitted and well maintained bolted jointed shouldn’t fail.

So, you can 100% guarantee that if I torque everything on my bike up correctly then I'll never need to check a bolt again?

So, you can 100% guarantee that if I torque everything on my bike up correctly then I’ll never need to check a bolt again?

Well only if you properly maintain the torque...

Well only if you properly maintain the torque…

So, in simple language, the bolt can come loose?

If this was a new bike and sold as fully ready to ride other than turning the bars / putting the seat post in then the cranks shouldn’t fall off within a few weeks. That’s says they weren’t torqued up / fitted properly.

Do you still have the box with the pdi checklist on it / a picture of it?

I’d push back hard and tell them you were told it was fully ready to ride and therefore a crank arm should t fall off in such a short space in time.

Halfords ?

So, you can 100% guarantee that if I torque everything on my bike up correctly then I’ll never need to check a bolt again?

Well lets turn this around, are you saying the OP has unrealistic expectations for a preassembled bike?
That is what he bought, a bike not a kit of bits for self assembly.
I would say the vendor had (as a minimum) a duty of care to correctly fit the parts that came preassembled and provide instructions on how to assemble any parts not delivered in a preassembled state.

If you don't want to be liable for the safety of your customers don't sell them anything you have assembled for them, just sell them parts and make it clear it's entirely their responsibility to put it together correctly.

TBH You shouldn't need to check the pinch bolts on a HT2 crank after 2 rides, if they were correctly torqued to start with.
Do you actually go over your entire bike with a torque wrench as a pre-ride check every time you ride it? I'd never get anything done if I lived like that...

I would expect a correctly fitted crank to not require checking for say 200 odd miles?
The OP was not being unreasonable in expecting to be able to use the fitted cranks as intended as soon as the bike was delivered for a fair few miles.

If a dealer sold you a brand new car, you drove it twice and on the third journey a wheel just rattled it's bolts loose and flew off, would you just shrug and say "well bolts can come loose" or would you be back at the dealership demanding repair and/or refund?

So, you can 100% guarantee that if I torque everything on my bike up correctly then I’ll never need to check a bolt again?

Maintenance involves checking the torque, either by using a torque wrench or applying a tell tale (nail varnish across the nut and onto the clamping surface or similar).

I have a geometron, it uses standard fasteners for the most part, the main pivot bearings sit on the axle and the end caps are there to contrain it (which they dont need to do much of as its a good press fit into the frame, so little chance of the axle walking).

There are so many janky approaches in the mtb industry (trunnion mounted shocks is a great example) which put bolts in single shear and thus they will just get loose over time through cyclic loading.
Many manufacturers use bespoke aluminum fasteners or fasteners which don't stretch at all and you are purely relying on a bit of thread lock and a dubiously applied level of torque, a wing and a prayer comes to mind.

Am I missing something?
OP says they had bike for about 10 days but retailer offers 'goodwill' gesture based on age of bike; some inconsistency there.
If circumstances are as stated, I suggest you refer retailer to the Consumer Rights Act - after you've read and understood your rights - and tell them which of the available legal remedies you want; there's nothing for them to discuss - it's for them to comply with the law.

Warranty is irrelevant. A warranty gives you protection over and about your statutory rights, and in this case your statutory rights, as in the Consumer Rights Act 2015, are sufficient.

In summary, if there's a defect in the bike, and you've had it less than 6 months, the onus is on them to prove that the defect wasn't present when it was delivered. See quotes below. There was a defect, they said there was a nut missing. It's not up to you to prove that it was missing when you got the bike, it's up to them to prove it wasn't.

s9 (3) The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;

(b)appearance and finish;

(c)freedom from minor defects;

(d)safety;

(e)durability.

and

s19 (14) For the purposes of subsections (3)(b) and (c) and (4), goods which do not conform to the contract at any time within the period of six months beginning with the day on which the goods were delivered to the consumer must be taken not to have conformed to it on that day.

The Act says you can reject the bike and get a refund.

OP says they had bike for about 10 days but retailer offers ‘goodwill’ gesture based on age of bike; some inconsistency there.
If circumstances are as stated, I suggest you refer retailer to the Consumer Rights Act – after you’ve read and understood your rights – and tell them which of the available legal remedies you want; there’s nothing for them to discuss – it’s for them to comply with the law.

It is as stated. (give or take a couple of days)

They threw the age thing in there when they replied, which is why i was questioning it in my OP.

its a 2021 model but i bought it new this year.

Is it one of those cheap jack mass produced ebikes?