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It would be nice to see more investment in the outlying infrastructure (better places to eat, drink and socialise)
If enough people eat drink and socialise, there'll be more places opening up to eat drink and socialise.
I think adding a cafe etc. to Golfie would be a bad idea as the local cafes/chippies already in the area will lose out. There's a good one a the bottom of Feed the Pony for instance, great cake/rolls/service, and with good MTBer suitable seating in one section!
I'm not sure about uplift, I assume the hill suits a chairlift better than Inners does?
Yeah thanks for the lesson in basic supply and demand Phil 😉. My point is that as a visitor to the area, that’s the only thing I’d like to see change. But appreciate that the business has to be sustainable at least for the majority of the year. The idea of a BPw style setup, if that is indeed a consideration (I have not looked for plans) is not particularly a good thing in my book. But that’s me being selfish, BPW really isn’t my thing I just love the hand cut trails up there. The inners uplift stuff is great but give me the golfie everytime
toungue in cheek comments aside. If pushed for a definition, I'd say
Bike Park: Uplift (doesn't matter how) and mostly DH oriented trails
Trail Centre: more XC-ish trails (big circle in the woods), no uplift.
It'd be interesting to see if the whole Aimup idea was done as a feasibility study now, with the increasing numbers and capability of ebikes, how the numbers would stack up.
I agree re the whole Tweed valley vibe, it's a great place to ride, facilities don't bother me, there's plenty places to eat etc.
with the increasing numbers and capability of ebikes
They're still very few and far between in the tweed valley. especially at the Golfie. There's definitely an odd mental barrier riders have about using one. I find it really weird from riders who have always ownd multiple bikes of a similar value. It's def a Tweed Valley #lifestyle thing aswell. give it time though and when a few more influential local riders start regualarly using them the fashion following wannabees'll all want one too.
Would be much better to develop the DH side of Inners further and turn that into a bike park.
My understanding is that the Inners land is not owned by the Forestry Commission but it's leased from the local landowner. There is a reluctance to invest in Inners facilities when the landowner could end the lease. This is why FC are more supportive of other forests in the area that they actually own.
Just something I heard from someone "in" on the situation.
Would be interested to see what locals riders think, particularly those that build the trails at the Golfie, is the organisation / individuals that are putting forward the plans the key trail builders or have full support from them or are they just cashing in on the hard work done by others?
Also as a venue is it not a tad steep for a multi purpose bike park? It’s the popularity of BPW it’s mass appeal in that it offer something for all abilities, were as the Golfie is significantly more full on and beyond quite a lot of riders ability, they would have to put some serious traverses in to bring the trail gradient down.
something for all abilities
Plenty provision the valley for this, I don't think this needs any consideration.
I would assume that the present style of Golfie trails (steep/unarmoured) is known to be unsuitable for heavy use. The hill itself currently makes it self-selecting as to the type and number of riders that can access it. That would definitely have to change under the weight of a bikepark development.
Of course, the Tweed is nothing if not blessed with many other areas people can ride and get intimate with their back tyre!
@scotroutes posted it on page 1. As per my understanding a bike park is owned and managed as a single park where access can be controlled. Etc. Bpw is a perfect example, whistler is similar but allows pedal up access for free. My old local at maydena tas was one where the owner built all the trails hence able to charge for entry regardless of uplift.
Nobeerinthefridge - that would assume that riders that don’t like / can’t coupe with steep Golfie / Inners DH trails don’t like the benefits of an uplift service. Seems a bit elitist.
I would assume that the present style of Golfie trails (steep/unarmoured) is known to be unsuitable for heavy use. The hill itself currently makes it self-selecting as to the type and number of riders that can access it. That would definitely have to change under the weight of a bikepark development.
Exactly. The terrain at golfie is naturally steep and would be very difficult to create a blue or red flow trail (flat white is the closest, but still quite steep in spots).
Inners makes more sense, forest is large enough with a varied terrain that means all types of trails can be built there in addition to the current trails, with both flow trails and steep tech being possible.
Seems a bit elitist.
and?
What's wrong with that? (assuming whoever is profiting can manage with the lower numbers more technical riding will bring)
GT/Inners trail centres are only a few minutes away to cater for novice riders
I don't suppose there's a OED definition to fall back onto but,
Trail Centre, which I think is fairly unique to the UK term usually generally refers to a building rather than a network of trails, but we usually see it the other way around). You pay to park (but not always) there's usually a cafe, bit of an info desk sometimes, and trails for horse riders, walkers, riders, bird watches, trails for school groups etc. The trails aren't always the responsibility of the centre and can be built and maintained by local government and are generally free to use by anyone.
Bike Parks, not by definition, but usually offer an uplift. Generally privately owned and it's pay to play on private land (or land leased to the park by local government) Because of this there's more liability on the operators and you'll need to sign a waiver usually (even if it's not rigidly enforced).
BPW muddy the water a bit, not by their own fault, but Bike Parks are still rare in the UK and were more so when they first opened, so the likes of MBR / MBUK couldn't really run a "best bike parks in the UK" if there was only 3 of them or whatever pretty much tucked away in the furtherest corners of the UK so they'd often find themselves in articles about "best trails centres in the UK" even though they'd often politely say things like "we don't consider ourselves a Trail Centre, but thanks". As would places like Brechfa and Cwm Rhaeadr which aren't Trail Centres either, which you'd discover to your peril if you ever turned up expecting to find a bike shop, showers, cafe etc, coz there ain't any.
Nobeerinthefridge
Plenty provision the valley for this, I don’t think this needs any consideration.
Same can be said of Whistler, but xc trails will be quiet while the bike park is always busy.
Uplift always leads to people trying stuff they’re not capable of because it’s so easy to access. See this all the time in ski resorts on a Friday afternoon where someone won’t go home without doing a black and has to slide down the entire run sideways.
Nobeerinthefridge – that would assume that riders that don’t like / can’t coupe with steep Golfie / Inners DH trails don’t like the benefits of an uplift service. Seems a bit elitist.
Not everyone can do everything, or wants to do everything. How many beginners go on the uplift at Inners as it is? I can't ever recall seeing one.
No but plenty go to BPW it’s this intended to be a bike park or are we talking about something along the lines of revolution?
Wasn't talking about anything along the lines of any other place. Nevermind places in Wales.
Why ruin a great riding area to end up with a hill full of Dave Jevnveys?
**** knows, never been to Revolution.
Very true beer, but to make something like this pay, you’d need a pretty big footfall. Would also be a lot more widely advertised and promoted than the Inners uplift is. IMO this would lead to families who’ve ridden GT also being tempted to head up the golfie. You need to either build suitable trails for them or they won’t come back.
Current xc trail ratings won’t help, as people who’ve done the GT black May think that’s what a black dh trail will be like.
you’d need a pretty big footfall
Gordo runs 4 buses over at the uplift, and has 6 in total, I'd say the footfall is there at present.
Current xc trail ratings won’t help, as people who’ve done the GT black May think that’s what a black dh trail will be like.
Isn't that what the orange designation is meant to be for, coupled with a big ARE YOU SURE YOU WON'T KILL YOURSELF ON THIS? sign at the entrance?
Current xc trail ratings won’t help, as people who’ve done the GT black May think that’s what a black dh trail will be like.
These are all problems that other parks worked out a long time ago.
The best indicator is a great big scary looking qualifier at the start. Other places use this in conjunction with the 3 orange dot grading system.
People aren't perhaps as stupid as you might fear either, very few will send a 10m double blind just because the sign at the start was a familiar colour.
Adrenalin uplift supports 64 riders a day. I suspect proposed plans would need a lot more than that to make it viable.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s good in principle, just worry about sustainability. You just need to look around at the numerous trail centres without facilities.
No it hasn't, you just need to look at the jump park at Gt to understand why the trail marking system doesn't work.
Having orange markings doesn't stop people from going down trails well beyond their abilities.
Why do you think there is always an ambulance being called to the buzzards nest nearly every week?
Why ruin a great riding area to end up with a hill full of Dave Jevnveys?
I agree so why push for a Bike Park, why not just get an uplift service in there like at inners and put more money back into trail building / repair to coupe with the any increased traffic.
NoBeer. Revs is great but it's run from one point in the car park at the bottom up one steep uplift road with all tracks starting pretty close to the drop off point at thv top. FA like Caberston
I agree so why push for a Bike Park, why not just get an uplift service in there like at inners
I've no interest in either happening. Sorry. Was that not clear?
Having orange markings doesn’t stop people from going down trails well beyond their abilities.
all that stuff can be rolled though.
"I’ve no interest in either happening. Sorry. Was that not clear?"
As a local and selfish ****, I completely agree.
all that stuff can be rolled though.
as can pretty much every trail at Caberston. especially now the place is full of SPAZA lines
Lol!
I’ve never been to and have no idea what is at Swinley so that tells me nothing 🙂
You're not missing out, it's the one place both you and Geex could visit and both hate. GMBN (or one of the other similar youtube channels) visited the place and referred to it as a bike park in order to make their "road trip" appeal more to the key 9-13yr old market. Despite Swinley having about 50m of elevation the joke has stuck.
As would places like Brechfa and Cwm Rhaeadr which aren’t Trail Centres either, which you’d discover to your peril if you ever turned up expecting to find a bike shop, showers, cafe etc, coz there ain’t any.
Those are definitely "trail centers" though, just without a cafe. And TBH I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually been to a trail center cafe (and it was mediocre). There's a shed halfway round Brechfa that does a decent bacon sandwich though!
For the really pedantic, if it calls itself a trail center it's a trail center, if it calls itself a bike park it's a bike park.
as can pretty much every trail at Caberston. especially now the place is full of SPAZA lines
I'm trying to look past the obvious and give you the benefit of the doubt that you're referring to lines that can only be found by purchasing the information from an informal convenience store in a South African township?
FCS own the land that Traquair Forest is on. They don't own the car park though and pay a fairly large amount of money to lease it.
FCS never invested in Innerleithen because AimUp was to take it all over through a community transfer. Ultimately, neither the funding nor a private sector provider came forward, so that project stalled.
Some additional points of clarification:
Caberston has more height gain that Traquair - around 75m. According to the consultant last night, that is absolutely required.
They already have a draft for newly build "flow" trails. Including a blue from top to bottom.
The overall proposal includes a MTB Innovation Centre. Current preferred location is Caerlee Mill in town. The proposal must get both - neither will proceed if only one is approved/funded.
Main funding is bid is via the Borderlands Growth Deal - so both Scottish and UK Governments.
Charging is for the lift. If you ride in, fill your boots.
On the Whistler point - there are more riders use the valley trails than the bike park. Figures presented last night, from memory it was something like 58/42 in favour of valley trails.
Anything else? Just ask.
My thoughts:
In favour of it happening:
1) FCS would probably be quite keen to dispose of golfie, it must be their biggest insurance liability, it generates no revenue and will require more fes management input/expenditure than is desirable, and they might be able to offload it for more than a normal disposal. Or it might be some kind of lease thing.
2) Private sector input makes it more favourable than proposals just relying on public money so riders can basically have a fatty on an uplift between runs and not have to pedal.
3) It might allow FES/whatever it's called next when it become a government agency, to limit unofficial trails built in other tweed valley forests, reducing their liability and costs.
Against it happening:
1) I can see major planning obstacles in relation to other stakeholders. The road is not really suitable for an increase in traffic and i think this would be a planning obstacle. There's not many other access options that don't go very close to other private property.
2) I can't see the golf course being happy with the increase in traffic through their course (they have to wait until the road is clear to play through) or the general increase in traffic around their land, unless they are receiving revenue somehow too.
3) The existing trails aren't really going to hold up to higher traffic unless they are rebuilt. With rose tinted specs on, this might be a shame as it's one of the highlights of tweed valley riding as it is now.
There's issues with the existing DH side, as has been said the car park is not FC land and floods every year, but it seems to me that is the more logical side to develop like this.
as can pretty much every trail at Caberston. especially now the place is full of SPAZA lines
sweet. I should pay a visit lol
For the really pedantic, if it calls itself a trail center it’s a trail center, if it calls itself a bike park it’s a bike park.
For the really pedantic we're in the UK and we spell it c-e-n-t-r-e 😉
Thanks for clarifying it though.
There is a much better location for a lift accessed bike park. Hillend.
Yeah this has been mooted before, indeed there used to be an apparently crap trail they built from the top of the lift about fifteen years ago but I never rode it. There was a plan to develop the golf course into a trail centre a few years ago, think there was a thread on here, not sure what happened. The proposed trails in the Hermitage also came to nothing. I suspect there's a lot of issues with land ownership and stopping riders riding out onto the pentlands from the top of the lift that would make it tricky, never mind financing it all.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/pentlands-hillend-mtb-development/
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/is-was-there-a-dh-track-at-hillend-edinburgh/
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/pentlands-mountain-bike-path-and-rollercoaster-bid-1-3567659
There is a much better location for a lift accessed bike park. Hillend.
Shame this comment seems to have been missed. As a pure bike park/trail centre, I think you're right. It would reduce the use of cars travelling to and from the cycling, which has to be good from an environmental/road safety point of view. It would also be accessible to a large number of folk without cars, so good from a social inclusion point of view. I guess it falls down on the desire to attract more investment into a rural economy, though I'm guessing we're talking a few minimum wage jobs here - plus whatever this Innovation Hub hopes to offer.
Edit: ha ha - one post too late!
fifteen years ago
closer to 25 Jim. they closed it 20 years ago. Due to "erosion". ****ing muppets!
a short ride/push to the left (as you look up) of the top lift station is a prime hill for jumpy flowy multiple line bikeparky style trails.
Poah. Why even comment on difficulty if you've never been?
Whoever mentioned me and Swinley. The place probably wouldn't upset me in the slightest, so long as it has turns, rollers, dips and the odd jump I'd probably love it. infact all the Surrey hills trails I've seen on video ridden by decent riders look fun.
the South mtb scene is very different to here but it's cool. I actually miss the SW scene. (lived there for a few years)
No mention of mountain bikes but you can go along on Monday to see the plans and no doubt have your say.
Whoever mentioned me and Swinley. The place probably wouldn’t upset me in the slightest, so long as it has turns, rollers, dips and the odd jump I’d probably love it. infact all the Surrey hills trails I’ve seen on video ridden by decent riders look fun.
Well, there's lots of turns at least.
And it used to have some jumps, then the CE got twitchy about people having fun at the expense of ground nesting birds (of which there arguably wouldn't be any, if they didn't keep flattening areas of forrest previously filed with trails to crate habitat for them).
From this:
To this:
I'm being mildly facetious, I love it, but it is quite flat.
Good chat and info, which is a change by page 3 these threads have usually descended into nonsense!. 😂
Poah. Why even comment on difficulty if you’ve never been?
went over your head that one.
There’s issues with the existing DH side, as has been said the car park is not FC land and floods every year, but it seems to me that is the more logical side to develop like this.
There are options for this, including flood control measures such as levees or buying and rebuilding the car park and raise the height of it. Both options wouldn't be cheap, but then neither is a chairlift...