Tube Union threatens strike over ebikes on trains

Sounds a reasonable request and course of action by the TU.

A cyclist was wheeling the bike towards a train and was about to board when it exploded.

Can you imagine if it had happend a few seconds later after the doors had closed and the carriage filled with toxic fumes?

Tbh I am surprised that they are not currently banned 

Yep, seems sensible.

Is it fair to say that it's "cheap" and home brew ebikes that are a noticeably bigger risk?

If so, then either ebikes need more regulation or we need more control on where they can go

Ban from the trails too please

I didn't know you could take a bike on the tube! I thought that's why folding bikes existed.

Posted by: geforce-junky

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I didn't know you could take a bike on the tube! I thought that's why folding bikes existed.

I was of the same opinion, but Google tells me they are permitted on some of the shallower, newer lines outside peak periods. 

Yeah, it is counter intuitive to ban electric scooters but not e-bikes, especially as e-bikes are more likely to be risky modified things. 

Ban from the trails too please

Do many e-bikes catch fire on trails then? 

This is a video I posted some while ago on another thread, but it shows an e-bike explosion at a station. Imagine what might have happened in the confined space of a carriage (with, potentially, people standing too).

For someone who doesn't know much about battery technology, are the batteries just as volatile & unpredictable when removed & disconnected from the bike? (when we're up in Bristol or other cities it's not unusual to see folk driving around with a van full of charged batteries, swapping them over on scooter/e-bike rentals).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-68744317

Posted by: Matthew Hornby

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Yeah, it is counter intuitive to ban electric scooters but not e-bikes,

Technically, e-scooters are already mostly illegal except on private land so I can see why they're banned anyway.

E-bikes on the other hand - so long as they adhere to certain regs around power, motor cut off etc - are fully legal and treated in law the same as a regular bicycle so you can't really ban them without also banning bikes or without getting into a whole load of complications on station staff / on-board staff knowing the differences and being prepared to call it out and deal with the consequences and arguments.

The issue is the massive prevalence of illegal e-bikes, dodgy modifications and cheap batteries. Regular legal e-bikes from reputable manufacturers pose as much threat as the average mobile phone and every passenger has one of those...

Regular legal e-bikes from reputable manufacturers pose as much threat as the average mobile phone and every passenger has one of those...

I'd say that's one of those likelihood/consequence matrix scenarios. The likelihood of a battery malfunction is probably the same, but the consequence is probably higher simply because there's a much larger number of cells to make a bigger explody mess.

This is a hotly debated issue in the self-catering holiday market with a good number of owner operators either making the decision to ban ebikes or being compelled to by their very cautious insurers. Same for hostels. As a big fan of the ebike concept, especially for older folk to keep on being active and the crossover between these older owners of reputable ones and users of holiday cottages being really significant I think it's really sad. But there have been too many incidents reported to try and persuade cottage owners who know nothing about these things not to make that decision.

Rail unions striking? Surely not.

Posted by: Convert

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This is a hotly debated issue in the self-catering holiday market with a good number of owner operators either making the decision to ban ebikes or being compelled to by their very cautious insurers. Same for hostels.

This is something that the whole (legitimate) industry should be shouting about really quite a lot because I can see a point in time where "e-bikes" (as a generic term) are banned from campsites, hotels, office blocks, cycle storage facilities (eg, at stations) etc and a massive chunk of the already extremely flaky/minimal leisure use of bikes is simply no longer an option.

Posted by: pjay

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For someone who doesn't know much about battery technology, are the batteries just as volatile & unpredictable when removed & disconnected from the bike?

I don't know for certain, but I would expect them to be safer in situ than disconnected and rattling about.

I've seen a lithium phone battery go up.  It was... enthusiastic.

Yeah, it is counter intuitive to ban electric scooters but not e-bikes,

and wheelchairs? What’s the testing regime for those batteries?

Non-folding bikes are banned on deep underground lines. And shallow lines and Elizabeth Line at peak times, which is 07:30-09:30 and 16:00-19:00 in the evening and makes travel to the velodrome hard!

Folding bikes can go on any train at any time. Lots of announcements that e-bikes including folding e-bikes are banned. Along with e-scooters.

Electric Bromptons are banned. I’ll have to keep an eye out for any. 

That sort of thing's already causing problems- for years at the uni I worked at, there was a well functioning don't ask don't tell policy, bikes were officially banned from residences but it was always totally accepted that people with high value bikes, ie us, could stash them in their rooms as long as they did so sensibly and didn't cause damage or mess or fire risks, the halls even had bags and mats and such available on request for the bikes you weren't allowed in your room and we were allowed to discuss it sensibly etc.

But that's gone to shit now, it's gone to a sort of impractical 2-tier "you can't have a bike but you can if it's not an ebike but you can't if it is" that's just become impractical, and of course people want to charge ebikes inside and even a removed battery is a risk especially in a kitchen (they had one near miss with a standard issue student cooking fire where a removed battery was found by the fire brigade scorched and just barely unexploded) and so it kicks back on everyone. By pure luck the mtb society has secure space on campus and it's a 200 year old stone outbuilding so they're still allowed in there, and the uni bought some battery stores for safe charging,  but if it were any other way it'd just be impossible instead of really bad. It seems pretty likely they're going to have to go iron hand on the ban for the first time ever just because no compromise has worked, and that sucks.

And that's bound to be happening all over, because we were never the sort of place that does anything unique or interesting, we're total followers.

tbf considering some of the shonky homebrew ebikes you see around you'd not want them on the tube with you!

E-bikes on the other hand - so long as they adhere to certain regs around power, motor cut off etc - are fully legal and treated in law the same as a regular bicycle so you can't really ban them without also banning bikes 

Not really, if it’s an e-bike it’s banned, doesn’t seem that complicated. 

Is it fair to say that it's "cheap" and home brew ebikes that are a noticeably bigger risk?

If so, then either ebikes need more regulation or we need more control on where they can go

The regulation now in place seems sufficient, it's just not enforced well and it's unrealistic to expect TfL staff to check ISO compliance etc of an e-bike when they get taken into a station. The risk is they'll end up banned from so many places they're impractical to own in a city, the kind of places that needs them most.

The gig economy worker exploitation and e-bikes being one of the best local urban transport solutions yet unaffordable to many who want them have combined to create a shit show.

Rail unions striking? Surely not.

It's a shame delivery app workers aren't unionised. Then they might be able to afford safe e-bikes and we'd all be able to use e-bikes and trains to get somewhere. 

Why take a ebike on a train? Just ride it. 

"Rail unions striking? Surely not."

Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

they might be able to afford safe e-bikes

They don't want legal ebikes where they'd have to pedal, they want the illegal throttle e-motorbikes.

Posted by: mike smith

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Why take a ebike on a train? Just ride it. 

What if you live in the sticks and work in town but a couple of miles from the train station? Bike - train - bike commutes are very common (or at least, they are in more enlightened countries but even here there's a significant number of people who'll ride from home to their local station, get the train most of the way and then ride the last couple of miles).

Which is exactly as it should be - some sort of joined-up integrated transport network combining both the ease and door-to-door nature of a bike with the rapid movement across long distances that is only possible by train.

and wheelchairs? What’s the testing regime for those batteries?

I was thinking the same, if folk are saying that the same problem exists with phones/laptops etc but that's fine as they're such small batteries then surely wheelchairs will be a greater risk than even ebikes as they've larger batteries.

But how much of a risk is it really?

I guess the chances of a wheelchair being a flakey home-brew, dangerous machine are very low compared to maybe 50% (a guess TBH) of e-bikes. All CE marked so staff not going to have to make subjective decisions about what is safe and what's not. 

Yup, I doubt there many "illegal" wheelchairs around intended to be used only on private property.

Also wheelchairs are generally more necessary to the user than ebikes are. Although I have no idea how wheelchair users get to ride on the underground, how many London underground stations have step-free access?

For someone who doesn't know much about battery technology, are the batteries just as volatile & unpredictable when removed & disconnected from the bike?

When they are removed it takes a huge amount of risk points out, no load, no varying currents, no one charging or discharging. So they are nominally safer, and the dodgier the installed ebike hardware is, the safer taking the battery out gets!

A properly designed and installed set up with a proper CE mark the difference should be pretty much zero. (Though having poked around in a few "proper" builds from major manufacturers, i'm not 100% confident in that!)

FWIW there's legislation in XEVs to have (almost) instant physical disconnect and isolation of the battery in the event of electrical faults in the power circuits. As those sort of faults turn into blazing batteries in not very much time at all.

I don't know for certain, but I would expect them to be safer in situ than disconnected and rattling about.

Again, depends on how they are handled, taking it out and capping/closing the terminals and leaving it somewhere safe/in a case or bag is different from having it rattle around loose in the back of your pick up with a load of wet gear and tools...

TBH, i'd prefer a concerted effort to get the homebrew shit off the roads. No objection to home made stuff. But wrapping 60V of high power batteries in shrink wrap and attaching it to your bike with steel hålband and wood screws...

What if you live in the sticks and work in town but a couple of miles from the train station? Bike - train - bike commutes are very common (or at least, they are in more enlightened countries but even here there's a significant number of people who'll ride from home to their local station, get the train most of the way and then ride the last couple of miles).

Which is exactly as it should be - some sort of joined-up integrated transport network combining both the ease and door-to-door nature of a bike with the rapid movement across long distances that is only possible by train.

The thing is, bikes ON the train doesn't really work as a transport model. It either needs to be bike to the station and then get the train to the office, or get the train from near your house to town then ride to the office (or have 2 bikes).  Bikes on commuter trains are just too big and impractical to accommodate on most lines.  There isn't standing room as it is on some services.

Even in more 'enlightened' countries (i.e. the Netherlands) the solution is 1000's of cycle parking spaces at the station, not 1000's of bike rack spaces on trains.

Regular legal e-bikes from reputable manufacturers pose as much threat as the average mobile phone and every passenger has one of those...

I assume it's a bit like airline rules. 

If your phone / laptop explodes on a plane they chuck it in a fireproof bag and into a container.

Presumably someone has done some research to determine that a 'small' battery fire in the hold is safe and will extinguish itself once the battery (and air) runs out.  But that an e-bike (or other large battery) is big enough to be a problem.

That and on a train you have the added risks of the bikes being in the vestibules blocking the exists, even if it's in the rack that's still next to the door so then everyone has to to somehow evacuate down the train.

Posted by: Matthew Hornby

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I guess the chances of a wheelchair being a flakey home-brew, dangerous machine are very low compared to maybe 50% (a guess TBH) of e-bikes.

Its how it would be perceived by station/train staff.

Might be a shonky diy job, or a £13k S-Works, but they see only an Ebike.

And by that measure an electric wheelchair is perceived as being safe, even if it has had some dodgy battery add on or replacement, they see an electric wheelchair and think it must be ok, because its a medical thing.

Posted by: mert

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When they are removed it takes a huge amount of risk points out, no load, no varying currents

I have a vague recollection that carriers generally insist that batteries MUST be fitted to the applioance - or have I imagined that?
Maybe it's just to avoid shorting terminals??

Coincidentally

https://www.firescotland.gov.uk/at-home/e-bike-and-e-scooters/

On a related note:

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/in-depth/unprecedented-lab-testing-vindicates-e-bike-of-fire-risk-and-piles-pressure-on-conversion-kit-market

On a related note:

I suppose the problem is creating rules for that.

It's easy to say that any major OEM bike is fine, and a 72V battery packaged in duct tape with a hub motor the size of a dinnerplate and no chain probably isn't.

But between those:

Cheaper than bafang / tonsheng kits with apparently "OEM" looking batteries?

Bafang / Tonsheng and similar kits that are rpobably as good as OEM 

OEM bikes with external batteries and hub motors (Suntour, G-tech, etc)

Short of sending every member of station staff on a course and stripping down bikes to examine them, how exactly do you write a rule to adequately distinguish between them and then enforce it?

Joe Blogs has no idea what an S-Works Kenevo is.  No idea whether it being covered in mud and/or scratches is indicative of damage.

As Convert said, you've got to look at it as a risk x consequence matrix.  Even a small risk, becomes less acceptable when you've got ~200 people in a cartridge and the bike is in the vestibule blocking half the exists (or on a underground style train, all the exists if you're sat in the ends). 

Ban on the trains seems to make sense.

They are banned most places I've worked too, though the current office us ok as they have external secure caged bike shed with sockets and you can even charge them

Just hope the ban doesn't spread to home and car insurance, then it'll make ownership quite tricky!

duplicate post

They don't want legal ebikes where they'd have to pedal, they want the illegal throttle e-motorbikes.

Probably always will as long as the hours needed to earn anything worthwhile off those apps are so ridiculous. 

I guess the chances of a wheelchair being a flakey home-brew, dangerous machine are very low compared to maybe 50% (a guess TBH) of e-bikes. All CE marked so staff not going to have to make subjective decisions about what is safe and what's not. 

Could do the same with 'proper' e-bikes - all e-bikes that are imported as such are CE marked. The CE mark is a self-certification thing so w/o anyone checking on the related testing it's only a guide. 

(I'd guess way lower than 50% fwiw)

Posted by: HoratioHufnagel

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Just hope the ban doesn't spread to home and car insurance, then it'll make ownership quite tricky!

When I sorted my House Insurance out recently, they were very keen to find out if any of the MTBs on the policy were eBikes.  Not sure if this was from a getting nicked or setting the house on fire perspective.  Possibly both.

I have a vague recollection that carriers generally insist that batteries MUST be fitted to the applioance - or have I imagined that?

Nope, IIRC it's a hang over from just having "bare" batteries with exposed terminals, like an AA or 18650. Where shorting terminals is a real issue (i've even burnt my leg having an AA in my pocket with a bunch of keys!)

Most stuff now should have concealed terminals, or at least, impossible to short!

But they still have the requirement.

there was a well functioning don't ask don't tell policy, bikes were officially banned from residences but it was always totally accepted that people with high value bikes, ie us, could stash them in their rooms as long as they did so sensibly and didn't cause damage or mess or fire risks

Sorry, it's a bit off topic but there's an interesting article on the BBC website about bike lockers in Bristol. Possible solution for high value & e-bike storage?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp9ym3xnel2o

https://metro.co.uk/2025/03/26/e-bike-ban-announced-london-underground-station-fires-22794171/

Ban incoming on all TfL services inc overground.

However, folding e-bikes will still be permitted after TfL didn’t identify any recorded incidents involving foldable e-bikes in London

Surely the likely reason for that is that there are a lot less folding ebikes, not that folding ebikes are safer than non-folding ebikes! The president of my cycling club fitted a conversation kit to a folding bike (Brompton I think) does that mean it would have been less safe had he done it to another of his bikes?

‘The real issue is a total lack of control on the sale of dodgy conversion kits, batteries and the illegal modification of ebikes into mini motorbikes. Government, TfL and delivery companies need to get a grip on this issue and fast.

No one wants to compromise the safety of passengers, but once again the easy answer appears to be removing cycle access rather than dealing with the bigger issue of meaningful regulation.

‘As a result, battery fires are likely to keep happening and we will keep seeing dangerous, illegally modified bikes on our streets.’

Sure but that is an issue for the Westminster government not TfL. In the meantime TfL has a duty to protect tube passengers from exploding ebikes.

I didn't know you could take a bike on the tube! I thought that's why folding bikes existed.

I thought most of the point of having a bike ('E' or not) in that there London was so people didn't have to take the tube(?)

As for E-bikes bursting into flames, it happens, we had someone using the path behind our house suffer a bit of an issue last year and decided to dump their flaming eeeb next to our garden fence, by the time the Fire brigade turned up it was billowing smoke and blazing away, didn't quite manage to destroy the fence panel but it was close, Battery fires happen suddenly, very fast and can last a while as one cell burns away setting off the adjacent cells and so on.

Don't reckon I'd fancy being stuck on a tube platform with a blazing E-bike, lots of nasty smoke in a confined space... 

I thought most of the point of having a bike ('E' or not) in that there London was so people didn't have to take the tube(?)

No, it's to get to or from the tube or do the short journeys across London that are too fiddly by tube. I do an evening class in Covent Garden, I can get from my office in Vauxhall to Covent Garden by tube but it's quicker to use a Brompton,  the same with Covent Garden to Waterloo afterwards.

I thought most of the point of having a bike ('E' or not) in that there London was so people didn't have to take the tube(?)

London is big, really big.  That's like saying what's the point of improving the rail network between Manchester and Leeds when you could just ride a bike, it's roughly the same distance as Staines to Dagenham, or purely on the tube you'd probably get Manc to Huddersfield as equivalent of Richmond to Ilford.

I used to crash at a friends house and that involved getting the tube from Z1 out to Clapham IIRC, then a bus, then bike the last few miles back to his house in Brixton.  

London transport is good, but I think non-locals assume that everything outside of Z1 is just as good as the little bit of the tube they see (or that the tube map is anything other than hilariously non linear).  There might be 5 stops in a mile in central London, but then it's 5 miles to the next stop once you're past that. 

Reading is on the Elizabeth line, but I can probably still get back from a gig in Bristol quicker than Alexandra Palace.