[Closed] TRP Spyre failed, very dangerous

Doesn't sound good, glad you are OK!

so I braked with very worn down front pads earlier

define 'very worn'

ie: past when they should have been replaced, or just close to when they should have been replaced?

don't think I can ever trust these brakes again now

I also took checked the back, the pads were not so worn so I just took the wheel out to see what would happen without the rotor in there to resist.... same result basically

I was trying to be diplomatic in my post 😛

Clearly you should replace the pads before they are worn out, but they also shouldn't really fail in a catastrophic manner if the pads are just 'very worn' rather than gone.

A decent brake should* still allow the pistons sufficient movement to apply pressure to the rotor even with the friction material gone and you're just rubbing a back plate against a disc.

*in my opinion

define 'very worn'

ie: past when they should have been replaced, or just close to when they should have been replaced?

about a 1mm of pad material left on each side, maybe a little less, but not worn completely through, certainly in the ballpark for replacement

A brake that does'nt work without a disc in....well I never.

listen to what I'm saying clever clogs, that's just what I did to check the back to see if did the same thing, the front did this with the rotor in place

I thought the whole point of the recall was that this was an error and it should have been fixed

I was putting pressure on the lever they just went ping and I lost braking force

As in, apply even pressure, then suddenly the actuator/piston jumps to its stop? or Ping its finally bottomed out after slow pressure?

A decent brake should* still allow the pistons sufficient movement to apply pressure to the rotor even with the friction material gone and you're just rubbing a back plate against a disc.

Thats different to a 'ping' and all power lost.

I thought these brakes auto adjusted for pad wear? are you saying they dont have enough?

TBH, its not clear, but sounds more like a gradual progression to no brakes, not sudden failure. Needs clarification.

I was trying to be diplomatic in my post

Clearly you should replace the pads before they are worn out, but they also shouldn't really fail in a catastrophic manner if the pads are just 'very worn' rather than gone.

A decent brake should* still allow the pistons sufficient movement to apply pressure to the rotor even with the friction material gone and you're just rubbing a back plate against a disc.

*in my opinion

I thought these brakes auto adjusted for pad wear? are you saying they dont have enough?

No, they have 3mm allen key slots either side to wind the pads in.

A decent brake should* still allow the pistons sufficient movement to apply pressure to the rotor even with the friction material gone and you're just rubbing a back plate against a disc

You'll be pleased to know that car brakes are designed so that the pistons don't pop out or the pads fall out of the caliper when both pads are worn down to the backplate (no friction material left) and the disc is 1mm below minimum thickness.

I hope my bike brakes are similarly designed 😯

No, they have 3mm allen key slots either side to wind the pads in.

Ah ok, getting confused with the hydro ones. fogot the spyre are mechanical.

From the TRP manual

SAFETY CHECK
Before Every Ride:
· Spin Wheel to be sure rotor is undamaged and aligned
· Check brake pad thickness, if pads are less than 0.8mm replace

SAFETY WARNINGS & INFORMATION
WARNING - Pad thickness must be at least 0.8 mm. Confirm this before each ride.

As in, apply even pressure, then suddenly the actuator/piston jumps to its stop? or Ping its finally bottomed out after slow pressure?

Thats different to a 'ping' and all power lost.

I thought these brakes auto adjusted for pad wear? are you saying they dont have enough?

TBH, its not clear, but sounds more like a gradual progression to no brakes, not sudden failure. Needs clarification.

braking hard, ping and all force is gone, the actuator arm jumps back about half way and jams there, if I wiggle the actuator arm up and down I can get it to ping back, but I can't do this from the lever alone, also the actuator arm jumping back while I'm pressing the lever forces the cable out of its stop at the lever, which further complicates things

they don't auto adjust btw, but I keep them well adjusted myself

Check brake pad thickness, if pads are less than 0.8mm replace

Pad thickness or friction material? I'm assuming friction material as otherwise that's a very thin backplate!

Sounds like OP's pads might have been at or below this limit, or wore down below it during the ride, so should have been replaced, but I still stand by my comment that a decently designed brake should allow for this and not fail in catastrophic manner if the pads wear out.

Pads wearing out or an end user forgetting to replace them is not an un-expected scenario to design for, reduced effectiveness due to running out of friction material is one thing, but a brake that can't even apply pressure to the disc once past a certain wear point (not even on the backing plate) is not good.

From the TRP manual

SAFETY CHECK
Before Every Ride:
· Spin Wheel to be sure rotor is undamaged and aligned
· Check brake pad thickness, if pads are less than 0.8mm replace

I have the manual right here in my hand and nowhere does it say that

what it does say is:

Pad thickness must be 0.8mm. Confirm this before each ride.

what it does not say is that if you ride on ok pads and they wear to a little bit less than 1mm during the ride these brakes could kill you

Pad thickness or friction material? I'm assuming friction material as otherwise that's a very thin backplate!

Sounds like OP's pads might have been at or below this limit, or wore down below it during the ride, so should have been replaced, but I still stand by my comment that a decently designed brake should allow for this and not fail in catastrophic manner if the pads wear out.

Pads wearing out or an end user forgetting to replace them is not an un-expected scenario to design for, reduced effectiveness due to running out of friction material is one thing, but a brake that can't even apply pressure to the disc once past a certain wear point (not even on the backing plate) is not good.

simply put, I'm pretty competent with my bike maintenance and this has happened to me, so I definitely don't think these are safe enough for all the stupid people that might be using them

Cheers for the heads up; I've just got some so I'll remember to keep an eye on the pads. Have you emailed TRP about it?

[img] [/img]

yes waiting for a reply

I'm dreading the standard 'send them back to us and make do without your bike for the next few weeks' response

Rorschach feel free to keep riding them, I'm sure you'll be fine

Pad thickness must be 0.8mm.

what it does not say is that if you ride on ok pads and they wear to a little bit less than 1mm during the ride these brakes could kill you

Kinda sounds like it does

you're all entitled to your opinions of course, but I think a brake that totally fails if you step a fraction outside of the operating parameters is not a good idea, especially knowing how pads can significantly wear during the course of one ride

are the rotors within tolerance?

I can imagine a 'thin' rotor plus worn pads is going to increase the chances of there being a problem?

Indeed, and even if it is acceptable (I think not) then the heads up as to how severe it is on this particular model (compared to other brakes which do not fail in the same way) is appreciated.

you're all entitled to your opinions of course, but I think a brake that totally fails if you step a fraction outside of the operating parameters is not a good idea, especially knowing how pads can significantly wear during the course of one ride

+1

can't believe people find this acceptable.

are the rotors within tolerance?

I can imagine a 'thin' rotor plus worn pads is going to increase the chances of there being a problem?

you're all entitled to your opinions of course, but I think a brake that totally fails if you step a fraction outside of the operating parameters is not a good idea, especially knowing how pads can significantly wear during the course of one ride

It isn't of course, but it does rather depend on whether it's only happening to your brakes or if it can be reproduced on others.

I ran my front Spyre pad down to around .5mm of braking material left before changing them recently with no issues.

That said, they shouldn't fail as the OP has described unless it's a manufacturing fault or something else is different.

OP - what has actually 'pinged out'? has the thread run off the track so that you've effectively unscrewed the piston by driving it too far (due to pads being worn)?

Just remembered - someone on here (Rocketdog?) had a similar issue with Tektro Lyra brakes a while back IIRC. And found someone else with the same sort of issue as the OP here: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=50316.0

also thinking about it since I had the measuring calipers out, if I saw a pad with 0.8mm left I would think there was loads of life left in it, it really is much more than you expect it to be

If that's the issue then you can stop it happening by taking up the slack with the adjusters on the caliper (NOT the cable adjuster on the caliper but the 3mm allen key ones on either side) rather than with the brake cable.

It isn't of course, but it does rather depend on whether it's only happening to your brakes or if it can be reproduced on others.

Reminds me.. I need some new pads for my spyres... Any good deals / recommendations?

I ran my front Spyre pad down to around .5mm of braking material left before changing them recently with no issues.

That said, they shouldn't fail as the OP has described unless it's a manufacturing fault or something else is different.

OP - what has actually 'pinged out'? has the thread run off the track so that you've effectively unscrewed the piston by driving it too far (due to pads being worn)?

Just remembered - someone on here (Rocketdog?) had a similar issue with Tektro Lyra brakes a while back IIRC. And found someone else with the same sort of issue as the OP here: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=50316.0

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-trp-spyre-rebuild-guide

this is a thread showing the internals of the spyre, I think it's the pre recall model but should be similar enough, there are ball bearings inside little ramps and as the arm rotates they roll up the ramps which pushes out the piston, if the arm rotates too far the balls come out of the ramps, that was what causes the recall in the first place, I don't know if it's doing something similar with mine but the descriptions sound like it

I found a thread from the guy who says he triggered the recall in the first place and his description also sounded similar to what happened to me

SSC Deore (515?) sintered pads on mine.

if the arm over rotates the balls come out of the ramps

What I found then is that the brakes had to either be slightly off center or have the adjuster wound all the way out. It might be worth checking if you have either of these conditions as well. Without it the brakes would pull on but wouldn't get all the way round to drop into the next hole on the ramp

well what's scary is that it's still doing it, this is what they said at the time of the recall:

We have discovered that in a specific scenario, the balls can be forced from the ramps if the actuator arm is fully activated to its stop with excessively worn or no pads installed.

and that's exactly what is happening now, leading me to think it hasn't been fixed at all? why don't they actually move the stop so the arm can never rotate that far in the first place?

thanks for all the responses people, I will keep the thread updated when I find out more

Are you 100% certain you have post recall Spyres?

I bought them maybe 6 months after the recall and they have the hex pad adjusters on both side, and the little "3mm pad in" arrow sticker, also asked the shop if they were post recall and they said they were

dunno what more I could do to be sure, unless somehow those 'pad in' stickers were put on a pre recall caliper then I'm pretty sure it's post recall

Sounds like they're post recall 🙂

anything new to report?

spyres are on my list, but this thread has raised an eyebrow or 2.

haven't seen this thread before

what's new to report is that I'm oot - that's some scary shit and I am NOT the sort of rider who checks pads anywhere near often enough to negate that risk

I've been using TRP Spyre for almost a year. I've done more than 10000km with them. I disassembled, cleaned, lubed them after 5000km (with a lot of mud). What I found is you should never use the barrel adjuster, only if you're on the road and you can't adjust them correctly. Otherwise the spring will get weaker and weaker, so you won't be able to fit in new brake pads (they will touch the rotor).
However after seeing the inside, moving it in my hand, I don't think that what you describe could ever happen. I think the inside of your brakes are worn/rusted. If the ball inside gets smaller, it will take more lever action for the same result, but after a time you run out of the ramp. So your caliper have reached it's end of life. It's strange, but once everything will die.
I don't think that this is a so big problem. The problem is, that you can't really check this yourself and TRP didn't warn us. Maybe we should test them without the wheel every day/week?

From the TRP manual

This is not acceptable on any level.

Interesting. I've found with my Hayes CX Expert brakes that worn pads can cause a "camover", but that's a bit less scary that no brakes at all.

I've heard (from a friend) of a BB7 spitting out (i.e. "critically failing") a braking pad with no friction material left. I didn't thought for a second this was a failure on SRAM's part.

On a somewhat related note:

sorry hadn't noticed this had new replies

yes I got the replacements 3 or 4 days ago, they feel totally different, certain elements of the caliper look different too - there is now a notch on the actuator so the cable runs straighter, I noticed the pad adjusters on the inside are black coated now instead of metal, the labels look like proper decals now when they looked like stickers before, the machining around the threads on the actuator looks better - basically it just looks a bit more quality all around

I don't know if these have simply been some subtle revisions since I bought mine, or if my caliper was a bit dodgy

the biggest difference is in the feel at the lever, the modulation is similar but the lever movement is much much smoother, the old calipers had a stepped feel, as if the bearing ramps were a bit roughly machined, now it's silky smooth