[Closed] Training as opposed to getting knackered?

Sorry to have opened a new thread on this, but the pain in the arse forum locks old posts just because they're old; so my old thread is closed. Stupid 98^*&^%*(

What are you training for, sorry, can't be arsed looking back?

HR based training is fine for long steady state at lower intensities but not so good for short high intensity intervals because there's a lag between you starting the effort and your heart responding. Also as you progress through a set of intervals you get cardiac drift meaning your HR gets to the same level for less effort being put in.

You'll need to work out your max HR so you can calculate the various zones. Check out Joe Friel (the guy behind the Training Peaks software) or British Cycling for calculators. Once you know your zones you'll want to spend most time in Zone 2, AKA the endurance zone. At first you'll think it's incredibly slow but that's the sort of pace that you'll be able to sustain all day. Supra-threshold intervals help but you don't want to be doing too many of them, they are hard work even when used to training. Also the high end stuff comes quickly but it also goes quickly whereas the long slow distance stuff that takes ages to acquire sticks around.

Joe Friel has also written several training books, try The Training Bible.

Are you eating and drinking properly? Sounds like you are overdoing things as well. You shouldn't have to rest for a week after a ride.

I've a Garmin ANT+ HRM and one (can't remember the make but got it from CRC) that does ANT+ and bluetooth. Garmin also do a dual band. Having BT means you can pair it with your phone as well as biking units.

Is there a time limit for your challenge?

400 miles in day.
For context, I know it's not possible, but if I could get an extra 1.5mph on top of current efforts then I could get very close.
(Did 300 a few years back with detours to pick up the kids from school and feed them and stuff, so have a baseline to go off)
If I did 22hours at the same speed I did the triple at then I'd be good foraround 350 miles. Given loads of that was stop/start town riding then I reckon I could get about 365 or so on an optimised route. (Current plan is 67 laps of Alderley Bypass )

I'm fairly old school about that kind of stuff; I'd aim to do 400 miles and see how long it took, then use that experience to see how to ride faster. The challenge is a mental one as much as a physical one; train your brain too..

OK. 24hrs with 5? minutes rest per hour? That leaves you with 22hrs meaning you need to average 18mph.

First thing is get a HRM and figure out your zones. Then find what your HR is whilst riding at 18mph and see where it lies.

Current plan is 67 laps of Alderley Bypass

Why?

Look into aerobic threshold training. I’d suggest you need to forget any Hugh intensity for now.

https://www.totalcyclingperformance.com/2009/01/aerobic-threshold-training-for-cyclists-aet/

You’ll already have a solid base I imagine so wouldn’t worry too much about Zone 2. In fact that would be my recovery ride once a week.

It takes time to increase your aerobic threshold but I would highly recommend spending the time now reading up on it.

650k in a day? 27kph average for a constant 24h? Not a chance. Even Transcontinental racers aren't doing that. I've seen folk knock out the festive 500 in 22 hours, but that's more like 22.5kph and in a group where they can share load. 27kph, solo, and more like 29-30kph once you factor in a few breaks - I seriously doubt it. I'm fairly fit and the level of effort required to get from 23-24 kph to 29-31kph over varied terrain and conditions and then hold that speed for several hours is HUGE. The problem is the speed doesn't really equate to the Watts required - 24kph over 4 hours for me will be about 110-130W but 29kph over 3-4 hours will require about 220W - double the effort.

Good challenge. I've done a few long rides. A few years ago I did my longest. Edinburgh to London in a oner. 440miles. Not in a day as such as it took 32 hours.

My thoughts:-

I think the "time crunched cyclist" is a bit old now but the ideas are probably still valid. It will help you get some of the fitness you need to ride shorter and harder. My guess is that you should be focussing on aerobic systems so hard, long constant efforts rather than sprints.

Legs are only one part of the preparation though.

I was regularly knocking out centuries at the weekend,normally hill rides 200km+ in preparation. But think about hours as well - I did some monster CX and mtb rides too that were shorter in distance. You need to put in some big miles not just for the legs aspect.

Position and comfort - If you are going to be on a bike for 24h you need to be comfortable - contact points, position etc. need to be right and you need to be conditioned. Back, neck, arms etc will take a battering. Feet and hands also start to hurt. Have multiple changes of shorts and a bucket of chamois cream.

Mental prep. I went through some dark places - not just the midlands at 3am. You'll be hungry, tired, cold at some point and just want to make it stop (especially if doing laps). You need to find a motivation to get you through.

Food. Know what you can eat while doing this. We had a normal breakfast at around 4am. A mid morning garage stop for a sandwich, pasta lunch as we passed our houses in Newcastle. Pasties/pies in York, Macdonalds breakfast around 2am (24hrs) etc. We had the challenge of being point to point so I'd looked up reliable stops. Tesco 24h, garages and macdonalds were always the fall back. If you are doing laps then I guess you can park a car. You won't be able to survive of snacks though. You'll need proper meals. Ideally hot food (cold pasta, hot sauce?). Being on the bike that long messed with my stomach - not helped by a weird diet and strange eating hours. Thankfully it stopped rather than accelerated.

Plan your stops and be organised. Have kit ready. Have food ready. Have prefilled bottles. We only spent something like 26 hours of the 32 pedalling. 6 hours were lost to eating, toilets, changing and then faff. It adds up. As alluded to in the thread above. Pedalling hard isn't an option for that length of time. Your overall average is as much impacted by the time stopped as anything else. They are easy gains.

Speed wise there were 5 of us. We started with 7 and had 15 by the time we hit Newcastle so got a nice tow at close to 20mph. Three helpers down to York did the majority of work - one very talented youngster and another local hitter who pretty much did a 100 mile 2up as fast as we were comfortable . We did turns as the five through the night. By dawn and into London it was who ever had something left. We were lucky with the wind but did get soaked. Just checked Strava and we average 26.5kmh. Assume that is while moving. 440miles 700km. 4400m of climbing. The only real hill was coming out of Scotland. But the bridge over the M25 felt like the Stelvio. Any gradient is tough at the end.

Garmins won't last that long. You'll need to change or charge it. If you can run two and break the ride down into different activities and stitch together at the end. I've done two long rides in the rain. One 300 and this 440. On both we've lost the majority of Garmins. They either die due to the damp or crash due to running too long. Having one in a plastic bag in your pocket would be a good backup.

Is possible.
https://flic.kr/p/2iVxhJ7
From recent edition of Audax Uk mag Arrivee.
Support for feeding and motivation would be vital.
As much aerodynamic advantage as you can get also.

Not done a ride that long - longest I've done was 210km in the Pyrenees in a sportive - but I've done a fair number of ultra marathons with similar sort of efforts. The thing that really struck me from your original comment is this:

Bit of a headache afterwards, metallic taste and generally feel shit for a few days afterwards. Rest for a week or two and then repeat.

After a normal 100km effort you should be fine the next day with just heavy legs to remind you of what you did the previous day. There's no way you should have a headache or feel shit. After a weekend ultra I'm usually going for a slow run again by Tuesday/Wednesday, and doing 20-25km runs the following weekend...

Diagnosis at a distance is obviously more of a guess than a certainty, but I'm pretty sure you're messing up both fuelling (slow recovery) and hydration (headaches). I'd consider investing in a Garmin at least for training (as @jonba points out battery life is an issue for the full 400m ride), and when you get one set the food+drink alarms. I usually set the alarm for a drink every 20min, and eat something every 30min. (I'll ignore the first eating alarm as I've only just started). How much to eat and drink depends on you and on the conditions, and needs training. I'm pretty tolerant of gels and like the convenience, other people hate them. (And however tolerant you are of gels you can't eat them all the time during a 400m ride, you will definitely need some kind of proper food halfway round to settle your stomach).

I was going post something then figured your well ahead of me anyway!

My 2p would be to focus on speed as well. If you can lift your 2 hour lockdown rides average speed to 21-22mph then riding 18 will feel a lot easier.

Whereas training at 18mph for long rides isnt training, its just telling you what you already know.

According to the sufferfests tests im a time trialler. So Im concentrating on everything other than 20minute intervals for 2 reasons. 1 to work on my apparent weaknesses and secondly they make a seemingly obvious point that I might not be a time trialler but have just trained myself to a point where my FTP is capped by the levels above it, so time spent working on 5min/1min/NM power will have a bigger impact on my ftp than doing ftp intervals.

YMMV, if youre naturally a sprinter then HIIT sessions would have the opposite effect.

OP, just when are you planning to do this? This June? No chance, next June? Possible. The longer you've got to train the better. The riders in @shedbrewed's list are likely to have many years of similar distances under their belts.

A lot of the posts (including mine) are coming at the same points from different angles.

To maintain 18mph for that length of time it can't be your 2hr top speed or even your 4hr. 18mph is 82% of 22mph which is still a bit high (IMO), you'd be better having a sustainable (and repeatable day to day) top speed of 23mph which gives 79% of max. This is likely to be close to your Aerobic Threshold.

Training: keep speed and endurance sessions separate. Also intervals, if done properly, are effing hard and you will only be able to do one such session of an hour to ninety minutes a week until you get the fitness, even then you wouldn't be doing more than two.

Fuelling. As @mogrim says, very important. You can't afford to go into the red on this since that's unrecoverable in the timeframe as your initial post demonstrates. Eat and drink early and often. Depending on temperature one 750ml bottle of water or preferably sports drink (easy to make your own) per hour. Sports drinks are absorbed quicker than plain water and don't sit in your stomach creating that bloated feeling when on the bike. Food should be masses of carbs and a big variety since your tastes will change through the day.

@jam bo - doing laps of a circuit makes a lot of sense - you aren't going to be carrying all your food and water so can leave it in a vehicle and replenish every other lap or so. Also if you have a mechanical it's not far to get to that vehicle or have them come to you and they'll know what route to follow.

I hear people talking about zones and stuff, and have a vague idea that I should be doing shorter efforts at high intensity and then presumably longer efforts at the lower intensity. Is that right?

Yes. Polarise your efforts, do no more than 1/5th of the time on the bike at very HI. Maybe 1/10th if you have enough time to train (say 15hrs+). Recovery is so important, you can't develop fitness if you're still tired from the last session.

Problem is that my goal will take long effort at high intensity…. but perhaps short bursts will help move my threshold higher and which means my lower thresholds also increase.

That's it. You need to raise your base pace to the required level rather than think of being able to work at HI for longer. Whatever your fitness you'll only be able to go at a fairly high effort (for you eg >80%) for maybe 60-90 mins max so you train at threshold/HI to raise your base power. Whitstone's posts cover it well.

I'm no expert by any means, but pick up training knowledge from various sources.

My understanding is that most of your training should be at a low intensity to avoid fatigue.

Your low intensity rides build a good base endurance. Even your recovery rides (which may be 30 mins at an effortless pace) work by stressing already fatigued muscles, but not to the point where they can't recover. They're not really 'recovery' in the sense that people will have you believe, they're just a reduced training load.

Most of your riding would be slightly harder, around zone 2, but an intensity where you would be comfortable talking and not gasping for breath.

This leaves your body less fatigued and able to train at harder intensities for shorter periods, which will ultimately have a larger benefit on your overall power. These are intensities that you either can't maintain for longer periods of time, or doing them for longer periods of time will lead to an inability to recover from them.

Everything I'm reading and listening to at the moment suggest that anything over 5 hours in a training ride you'll get virtually no benefit from, other than the actual experience and mental preparedness for riding that length of time. But the fatigue will outweigh any fitness benefit.

Of course, your own ability to recover will depend very much on the limitations of your own body, and of your diet and lifestyle.

I have no idea on your question, but thanks for the inspiration. I'm currently slowly recovering from what may (or may not) have been Covid-19 - or could have been Peak District altitude sickness - and you've reminded me that I need an incentive.

I think I'll aim to go Everest something local in the late summer 🙂

Polarised training always seemed worth trying, if you've got the time. You'd need a heart rate monitor and a power meter.

You'll want to do some research as it's a bit of a project, learn how to implement it for yourself. It uses a 3 zone model, where your supposed to spend the majority of your rides at or below zone 1.

Zone 1 in this model is up to or just above zone 2 in the usual 5 zone model. The Zone 1 pole (polarised) stops at lt1 (lactace threshold 1, there are actually two lactate thresholds). You'll know when you've gone passed lt1 as you'll be breathing heavier and HR will begin to rise. You should be able to ride along at a pace that allows you to nose breath (mouth closed) in this Zone 1. It's hard to do actually, as naturally you want to ride harder. But once you get accustomed to it, it's nice! Take in the sights and smells, hear the birds etc. Lovely.

So you'd do 3 or 4 of these zone 1 rides in a week, they'd need to be a couple hours I'd think at least. You'll do two hours, and you should not be tired.

Then after a rest day, you do one VERY very hard interval session per week. Something like 4x8min, with 2 min rest @ 105% FTP (need power meter).

You don't want much time at all in the middle ground, it's supposed to be lots and lots of easy riding, and 1 really horrible, bleeding from the eyeballs, hard ride.

After a period of 8-10 weeks the speed of the easy rides will have risen.

Research 80/20, and Stephen Seiler. There are many podcasts regarding the subject on Fasttalk.

Current plan is 67 laps of Alderley Bypass

Why?

Because it's around 6 miles, so I'd need to do 67 to cover the full 400.

Obvs

Then after a rest day, you do one VERY very hard interval session per week. Something like 4x8min, with 2 min rest @ 105% FTP (need power meter).

I'm not entirely convinced by the argument of only doing 1 training ride a week followed by 4 recovery rides.

The principal as I understood it was you do the minimum required to stimulate an improvement, then rest and repeat as soon as you're ready.

So do one hard session (whatever it is, could be 2x20, could be 60 all out 15s sprints, could be 3 hours at just below threshold), then do your z1 rides until you recover, and repeat. The important bit is that the length of recovery is proportional to the effort. So if you were doing 90-105% FTP efforts then that might mean one day off in between sessions, if you're doing intervals at 120-150% FTP that probably means a 36-48 hours off, sprints, probably day 3 before you're ready to go again.

But the important bit is:
a) the hard sessions need to be tailored to your current state and where you want to go (e.g. a natural sprinter looking to do time trials, HIIT would not be the right answer, or vice versa a time trialist isn't always going to see improvements doing FTP intervals all the time)
b) the easy sessions need to be tailored to the hard sessions.

A blunt example would be, you can do sprint intervals the day after a 2x20 session and get the benefit from both sessions, because on day 2 your legs aren't actually all that tired, they're just lacking in glycogen and your cardiovascular system needs to rest. You can't do that the other way around, your legs won't be happy riding a time trial the day after leg day at the gym.

Current plan is 67 laps of Alderley Bypass

Jesus, out and back 3 times doing reps is boring enough for me.

@thisisnotaspoon

I believe there's also huge benefits to the long easy rides, as part of the 80/20 principle. Something to do with cellular adaptation - MCT1 and MCT4, lactate transportation, the body being able to use the by-product of lactate produced as further fuel so you can go harder and longer blah blah blah...

So Seiler still puts a lot on emphasis on these long easy rides, as not just recovery.

awesome all. Thanks for all the replies...

You’ll need to work out your max HR so you can calculate the various zones. Check out Joe Friel (the guy behind the Training Peaks software)

Aha, did he also to Training Peaks? Book ordered. Will also check out Training Peaks since the Elite Turbo App sucks bigtime.

Are you eating and drinking properly? Sounds like you are overdoing things as well. You shouldn’t have to rest for a week after a ride.

Yes, I eat shit loads, and fairly well. I do tend to stress loads and not sleep well which is a big factor.

OK. 24hrs with 5? minutes rest per hour? That leaves you with 22hrs meaning you need to average 18mph.

Yep, 18.18mph average.

First thing is get a HRM and figure out your zones. Then find what your HR is whilst riding at 18mph and see where it lies.

Right, yes, that makes sense. Presumably means I can find the similar level on the Turbo.

Position and comfort – If you are going to be on a bike for 24h you need to be comfortable – contact points, position etc. need to be right and you need to be conditioned. Back, neck, arms etc will take a battering. Feet and hands also start to hurt. Have multiple changes of shorts and a bucket of chamois cream.

Yep. Comfort is fine TBH. Got an old man's bike (Trek Domane) which is lovely comfortable. Though I was thinking of getting some tri bars to clip on. Which would help the speed issue but make the comfort a problem.
Don't get on with cycle shorts TBH. But will have loads of fresh cotton boxers at the ready. When I did my 300 I ended up detouring to Asda to buy another pack, but like a lot of Asda stuff they were shit and chafed. So Only Ralph Lauren this time round. On a similar vein I ended up putting my mudguards on mid effort on the 3c as I was fed up of having a damp arse, which chafed.
Anyway, too much information 🙂

Food. Know what you can eat while doing this

Stupidly enough, this will be a huge problem. I eat shit loads, and especially so when exercising. I can't survive on gels etc. Need good savoury food. That will be a huge challenge with only 5 minutes break per hour...

Speed wise there were 5 of us. We started with 7 and had 15 by the time we hit Newcastle so got a nice tow at close to 20mph. Three helpers down to York did the majority of work

Yes, TBH this is indeed the only way it is feasible for me. One of the guys in the local club was thinking of joining me, and I'd love to hear of anyone else up for it. I can't do 18.2 average solo for 22hours, but in a group of 3 or 4 then it starts to sound possible...

My 2p would be to focus on speed as well. If you can lift your 2 hour lockdown rides average speed to 21-22mph then riding 18 will feel a lot easier.

Whereas training at 18mph for long rides isnt training, its just telling you what you already know.

Right, interesting. When I did 3 hour practice on the bypass a month or two ago, I tried to keep my average at 18.2mph and see how long I could do it for. What you're saying is try to push the 18.2 threshold to 19mph or thereabouts so 18.2 feels a lot easier and hence can be maintained for longer.

OP, just when are you planning to do this? This June? No chance, next June? Possible.

September this year seems like a good option. I'll be knocking on 50 next year so need to do it soon.

o maintain 18mph for that length of time it can’t be your 2hr top speed or even your 4hr. 18mph is 82% of 22mph which is still a bit high (IMO), you’d be better having a sustainable (and repeatable day to day) top speed of 23mph which gives 79% of max. This is likely to be close to your Aerobic Threshold.

Holy ****. It makes sense but there's no way I can do 23mph solo. I once hung on a 37 mile group ride at 22.8 measured average, but it wrecked me. Damn good fun though. Never realised how much my bike flexed until that day.

@jam bo – doing laps of a circuit makes a lot of sense – you aren’t going to be carrying all your food and water so can leave it in a vehicle and replenish every other lap or so. Also if you have a mechanical it’s not far to get to that vehicle or have them come to you and they’ll know what route to follow.

'zackly. Also, the cycle path is very smooth, which is good for at least 1mph IMHO.

BWD:

and you’ve reminded me that I need an incentive.

g'wan, g'wan, gowan. You know you want to. September......

kid.a.... will have another read of what you have said. Looks eminently sensible.

Slowoldman...

Jesus, out and back 3 times doing reps is boring enough for me

Yep agreed. It's dull as shit. I'd much rather be ice climbing, skiing Broad Gully, biking in Moab, Ben Macdhui. Deep water Soloing in Majorca.... but all those are off the cards right now and I really want to see if I can do this.

WHICH HRM People?

o maintain 18mph for that length of time it can’t be your 2hr top speed or even your 4hr. 18mph is 82% of 22mph which is still a bit high (IMO), you’d be better having a sustainable (and repeatable day to day) top speed of 23mph which gives 79% of max. This is likely to be close to your Aerobic Threshold

Not sure thats quite right, power required goes up roughly with the square of speed, 23 vs 18 is 62% more power (or 18 is 61% of 23mph). 62% of threshold barely feels like pedaling.

24h is beyond my expedience, but 12h on the bike a few days in a row touring I could comfortably maintain 80% ish.

That and if you can maintain 23mph solo you wouldnt be on the internet asking for coaching tips (unless were talking tt bikes).

I use a Polar OH1 which is an arm worn optical HRM. I'm sure someone will be along to tell me how shit it is because it doesn't respond quickly enough. Well, I'm not into sprint efforts and I reckon it does a good enough job. I have a couple of Polar computers, a V650 with mapping and a simple M650. These link to the Polar Flow website to maintain a diary of performance. Polar Flow will also export to Training Peaks which then gives you further stats such as Training Stress Score, Fitness, Fatigue and Form. All interesting stuff which no doubt Joe Friel will explain.

Other HRMs and computers are available and I'm sure just as good, many link to Training Peaks. Your can also download British Cycling training plans into Training Peaks. As mentioned earlier I would suggest your first step ought to be an FTP test to determine your Threshold Heart Rate (this is assuming you are going to be training based on HR rather than power). You can then calculate your HR zones and from there figure out your training sessions.

I only started all this last year when I retired and planned to cycle more and get fitter (for cycling), so I'm pretty much a novice in this area. But the use of this tech has given me some good feedback which is encouraging and motivating. This year I can definitely say I'm in lower HR zones for the same session as last year and at higher speed, so presumably fitter. I'm nowhere near your speed though, but I'm quite old and speed isn't my main concern. If you spot a grey haired couple on Spesh Diverges in and around Alderley say hi.

tinas - I was working with HR not power when I suggested that but point taken.

For power using square of speed you'd need 20.34mph to be comfortably sustainable at 18.2mph.

OP - I've this dual band HRM https://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-bluetooth-ant-compatible-heart-rate-monitor/ I've paired it with an ipad for use on the trainer so should pair with a phone.

Whilst there's some really good stuff in the replies you've got here, there's also some absolute howling nonsense.

You're likely to struggle to pull together a decent understanding of what training you need from a combination of multiple opinions, however good some of them are. Reading Joe Friel will tell you how to prepare for a 'season' but won't really help you with an extreme challenge like you've set for example.

I'd seriously consider speaking to a cycling coach. Maybe don't bother with someone who wants to sell you entry into a monthly package, You need someone who will understand your current situation, your goal, and help you understand how to bridge the gap, and maybe give you a broad brush overview of what you should be doing.

That's not me trying to sell you *my* coaching services. Any good coach should be able to help you, but feel free to message me if you do want some advice.