Forum menu
If you've not followed a structured training schedule and are just jumping into hard workouts then you may well have the power but not the capacity to complete the workouts. ie. you're FTP may be accurate, but you haven't got the capacity to repeat above-threshold (or longer sub-threshold) intervals more than a certain number of times.
It’s not the testing thats an issue but the actual workouts where you often find you are pushing an odd cadence to keep to power.
Interested to read this as I find that this eventually has a (negative) knock on effect on my outdoors riding throughout winter when I turbo a lot. I find I end up grinding with my fluid turbo almost all of the time, and after a winter of grinding on the turbo along with heavy weights, I tend to come out of winter feeling strong but slow. If I take an outside 5min VO2 effort my RPM is around 95-110 but inside it can be 70-75.
The cross VO2 max stuff is pretty hard, ferrals. I think because you can crush it when you’re on form there’s a tendency to think it’s something you should always be able to do, but not sure that is the case.
Probably true, I tend too look back on a couple of years ago when I could 'happily' do any specified session and only crumbled if actually ill but then I a) had raced (and trained properly for) the whole regional XC series and the whole national XC series b) had a lot less other commitments meaning I could rest better and train at an optimal time. Perhaps not surprising I'm struggling after less training and when trying to do sessions after getting up at 0545, scoffing a bananna and jumping straight on the turbo!
If you’ve not followed a structured training schedule and are just jumping into hard workouts then you may well have the power but not the capacity to complete the workouts. ie. you’re FTP may be accurate, but you haven’t got the capacity to repeat above-threshold (or longer sub-threshold) intervals more than a certain number of times.
Thats exactly where I am, jumped straight into speciality mode after a (relitively speaking) lazy and definitely unstructured summer. Having said that, first cx race of the year a couple of weeks ago my average HR was the same for the first 8 laps and only dropped 3bpm the last lap which is super consistent for me. I was also only 20s off a top 10 which would have been a good result for me when fitter too. So either my race craft is geting better or I do have the fitness but am not able to monopolise it on the turbo for some reason. Whether thats a lack of mental toughness or a slightly wrong FTP I'm not sure.
I find I end up grinding with my fluid turbo almost all of the time, and after a winter of grinding on the turbo along with heavy weights, I tend to come out of winter feeling strong but slow. If I take an outside 5min VO2 effort my RPM is around 95-110 but inside it can be 70-75.
I'm the reverse - spin much more on the turbo than in the real world.
Realised yesterday that my rear tyre was semi-deflated, ~25psi lower than when i did test, which might be a reason why i was struggling so much with workouts as I guess rolling resistance would increase.
I used to do this as well, I introduced a workout focused on cadence drills between hard midweek workouts which sorted it out.
So Monday would typically be a rest day, harder workouts on Tuesday and Thursday with form and/or cadence drills on Wednesday. Developed some good habits this way.
Another vote for cadence drills here. I'd do them as part of a very easy ride every week.
Oh, and when I've tried to do Speciality Phase workouts without good prep they've gone terribly. Even mid-race season with good form, I think it's a really different kind of hurting on the turbo and I certainly need to train the mind and body to get used to it.
The calendar is now on general release but also a price rise is coming on the 8th October.
Sign up before then and you get the old price.
https://blog.trainerroad.com/introducing-the-new-trainerroad-calendar-forum-kits-and-pricing/
I've just renewed my TR subscription. I've gone from riding 5+ times a week with regular 18 mile each way daily commutes to doing next to nothing for the past 3 months.
I've got a week in Mallorca on road bikes with mates in April so need to get back in shape for that.
If I go for a 6 week base plan followed by an 8 week build then an 8 week speciality then I should have started a couple of weeks ago so that won't work!
Would I be better just starting now and knocking a couple of weeks off the end of the speciality plan?
Personally I'd do all of the base and skip the specialty part. It's still a lot of work and as alluded to above jumping into speciality phases without a good base can end in disappointment.
As above, I’d do all the base (1 & 2) and as much of the build as time allows, you’ll be solid by the time Mallorca comes around
As above I skipped the first Base last year as I'd done 2 hard months on the trainer (new to it) and struggled on certain Build/Speciality sessions. Further listening to TR Podcast and they seem to lean towards ensuring Base is done properly and lose the speciality. In theory you'll lose some top end by not completing it but better that than not having the ability to get round.
I've left a 2 week buffer to my A race next year for slippage in plan and any greater slip than that will just be taken off the speciality.
I've never actually done any speciality, on the trainer anyway.
Working on recommended masters of 2 weeks on/1 week active recovery, starting early October by the time I've finished build I'm well into reliability season, starting to ride more outdoors and early season racing.
I didn't do much last year as the weather perked up massively in April. Intention is to fit 2 of the more specialist sessions in a week come that part of the year and the rest will be riding outside doing whatever.
Im right at the end of the first base phase and feeling quite tired from work. Would it hurt to do another recovery week next week or best jump straight into Phase 2 of base with another ramp test?
.
Bit of a training related whinge. My coach is not happy - neither am I - with my current ability on VO2 max. So, he prescribed an FTP test today on my own equipment in case of differential etc. I argued against it, knowing with my state of mind anything low would demotivate me.
So, this morning I couldn't sustain continuous power over 20 mins and hence dropped FTP by 25%, equalling my FTP of four years ago.
Right now, I'm in subtle toys out of the pram mode and can't be doing with training or looking at bikes. Although I think I know why and to not to sulk about it, I just needed to write it down. Any empathy is appreciated.
It’s a snapshot of current fitness, not future fitness or potential...sometimes motivation (or lack of) will influence it...
@Kryton57: That sucks. If you’re feeling off mentally or physically you know it’s probably going to be disappointing, but 25% drop? That’s not right. From your workout history what did you estimate your ftp would be? Most ftp test tests I’ve done have been with 5w of what I’d estimate and you have plenty of workout experience to go by.
Perhaps try the TrainerRoad ramp test (can be done on Zwift). I understand it can highlight a relatively low VO2 max component of your fitness if the test scores you a lower ftp than you know you can sustain. It’s also harder to mess up than a 20minute test.
You know what you can do, don’t sweat it.
mjsmke - I'd do another week of rest and maybe fit the FTP test in at the weekend when rested then find a suitable session for Tuesday (maybe the same as the Tuesday of week 2?
Kryton - You can't have lost all that clearly. I've failed one ramp test that I just wasn't able to commit to it so just ignored the result and carried on and the next time it was where I expected it to be. Even look at the 6 week prediction on the Strava Power curve if you're a pro user. Get you're head back in gear and make sure you aren't ill and do it again.
And reading it again just in case it's an equipment issue do the Ramp Test assuming you have access to it as it's a bit of a no brainer. 3 minutes of hard work really.
Bit of an obvious one but is your power meter calibrated properly? Mine was offset by a lot recently as I hadn't been arsed to zero it (and struggled horribly on some VO2 max stuff as a result).
@mjsmike - if you're not feeling up to any proper training then another rest week is almost certainly a good idea. I find in that situation it's good to keep the legs moving a bit but it's more for mental health than anything else - I'll usually try and find a chance to go for a really easy ride outside just looking at the birds/trees etc.
Garry_lager - good point. Im using a 4iiii crank direct to zwift. Should i have to calibrate? Surely it starts from 0 every time? Or am I being stupid...
Having said that my W vs HR is wrong with my HR being to high compared to last year. Resting HR is fine so we thought this might just be an issue with a recent month off.
I have 4i cranks for outside use. I calibrate them every ride as it's easy enough on the app. Not sure if that's strictly necessary mind. I think the instructions suggested doing that.
Try a segment on Zwift before recalibrating and again after and check the times for the same power.
I warmed up and did 5 mins at 160w recording my hr. I recalibrated and did the same - same HR.
The only other difference was last time i tested was on a a dumb turbo - but using the same PM so effort level as power display should be the same e.g 200w at the crank is 200w at the crank regardless of what the rear end is attached too.
Well there you go - a prescribed 90 min "general" ride today within which I matched yesterdays 20min W by accident.
Just a bad day yesterday then I guess. I'm interested in performing the ramp test though. I have a training race coming up with a weeks taper, I may sneak it in there mid-week although that means $13 to reactivate my TR account for one session....
@Kryton57: No need to do that. Build it in Zwift.
Workout: 5 minutes at 46% ftp then add an interval at 6% higher intensity every minute. Ride until failure. Your FTP is 0.745 of your best one minute power. No warm ups and no standing up allowed.
Aha - thanks!
In no way a serious racer or trainer, but have used TR over the last couple of late winters/springs to keep some base for summer riding (MTB).
Am entered into the Mountain Mayhem 24 hours in a team, so figure I should probably do something a bit more this winter - usually do Sweet Spot Base after Christmas but am starting now so I can do some build, etc. too this time round.
Have done the 8 minute FTP test in the past, but tried the ramp test tonight. Previous FTPs have always been around 230-240 (last tested in the spring) but after the ramp, TR is now suggesting 260...
Seems a big jump to me (c.13%)? Haven't ridden particularly long or hard over the summer compared to previous years, but have done a few hard-ish hour long efforts over the last few weeks.
I'm doing a REALLY time crunched mod of Sweet Spot Base due to work at the minute, so do I keep 260 knowing that I'm only doing really short workouts and should be able to manage that (and can just drop FTP if it gets too much)? Or drop it to 230 knowing that that's where it historically has been? Or go for a gut feeling compromise and set FTP to 245?
Stick with the tested value for a bit I would. Or re-test in a couple of days
Stick with the new one.
See how the first week goes and if you can get through them stick with it. If you start to struggle in a week or 2 and failing tone it back.
Like the 20 minute version the 8 min one you have to decide what you're aiming at and try and hit it so easy to under achieve or just plain die. The ramp test is kinda impossible to fail at unless you just aren't feeling like it. I've done badly once and just packed it in as I was getting nowhere near where I should have beem but all the others I could maybe have done another 5 seconds but nothing meaningful.
Anyone fancy recommending a hard workout, focused towards cx, that is still 'easily' acheivable. Was planning a hard week of training this week but life got in the way and I'm exhausted. Tried to make up for it with an early workout this morning but failed on Xalibu +2, switched an easier workout (generva -4) but failed on that too. Hoping to do an hour tomorrow and just want something beneficial but not too taxing to build up motivation. Thinking an easy reduced amplitude billat type workout or similar.
It would be so good if trainerroad allowed you to search based on terms in the workout description!
I find Wynne to be pretty smooth on the cx plan - some decent digs but generous rest, plus the three at 180% for 30 seconds sound like a big deal but I find them easier than the longer intervals at lower values.
tbh though if I was feeling a bit ropey I wouldn't push a VO2 max sesh, probably just do Mt Field or something steady on sweetspot.
Wynne is a good shout. I'm just tired not ill.
got races every weekend now for 4 weeks and then post Christmas I'm just doing a couple where I don't care about the result so I can't see myself actually building my fitness, I just want to re-prime myself after three weeks of virus enforced minimal exercise. Reckon I should be able to get back to where I was pretty swiftly as I'd just got some form before getting ill. I think Wynnes a good option to get the systems going again without excess stress.
Well, immediately after my failed FTP test I had a throat infection - that’ll be why then. Took 4-5 days to work through and to make up for lost time I completed my 4x6min VO2max intervals successfully on Friday, rode MTB on Saturday, and a set of “dirty 30’s on Sunday and again on Monday.
For my sins my coach has reorganised that FTP test for next Sunday, although based on the above I’d be happy that my FTP is still in the same place it was.
I have a few days off as the FTP test marks then end of a 4.5 week block, the first of the Gorrick Brass Monkeys 4h as a training race on the 9th, and then back on VO2max/strength sessions until Christmas Eve,
The old dull ache in my legs is back, along with instructions from my coach that if I’m not feeling sick on the penultimate interval, I’m not trying hard enough...
Does anyone else find that they need to do a much deeper warm-up for their TR sessions? Particularly Vo2 workouts.
The first couple I’m not able to hit the targets but 30 mins or so in i’m smashing them.
Suggests that a harder/longer warmup is required? Would also explain why I get faster during ‘cross races.
Yep. When I'm doing 30s intervals, the first two and the last one are at lower watts than the rest.
I was advised to add a couple of 15s bursts at he same watts to my warm up to activate the relevant systems.
These aren't necessarily just 30sec intervals, I have the same issue with longer intervals, basically anything around FTP it seems to take longer than the warm up to feel comfortable*
*a relative term, I still see stars at the end of the last interval.
Interesting, I always remember reading Joe Friel saying you should always finish intervals feeling you could do one more. I probably remember that because it suits my mind set!
No and I did 30sec ones last night. I generally feel terrible in the openers of most of the sessions though.
Try doing more and see.
I've previously used TrainerRoad but sweamrs was using a proper coach at the same time and it was noticeable how much longer her warm ups / cool downs were when compared to TrainerRoad. I do find that for the first interval I'm a bit lower.
There is the option to extend warm up and cool down that I often use. I guess they are trying to squeeze as much into an hour as that’s a very achievable amount of time for most people
Phew. After a crappy ftp test, a virus, a cold and my usual issues with VO2max I’m now holding my VO2max for 8 min intervals. Starting to feel fit again. I have a monster week this week with 450tss all VO2max, a rest Saturday then 2 z2 Sunday and Monday.
I’ll be deserving of the Christmas port on Christmas Eve.
it's alive!
Right-O i've been cross country skiing from early december till now. Base fitness is ok i guess from skiing, but yeah i haven't cycled in 2 and a half months.
I'm off to finale first week of April so i want to hop back on TR for 6 weeks or so.
what training plan should i follow on trainer do you reckon? Short power build?
ta in advance
I reckon sweetspot base is great just from the perspective of fitting the sessions in around a busy life - even if you're tired and not feeling it you can always do a sweetspot session, it's not going to wear you out and make you ill, but they're still a decent workout (esp the latter ones). Clue is in the name I guess.
Depends on your schedule - I commute by bike and don't do the amount of training I'd like (and I enjoy the turbo). Perhaps if you're sat behind the wheel / at a desk all day it's different and you'll want to come home and rage the turbo on some harder sessions.