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Yeah, still producing only 450w at 55% FTP in less than ideal conditions during Base is something I'll have to cope with.... 😉
Just finished a slightly hungover Fletcher following a work night out. Just managed to finish it before my boy woke from his lunch nap . Let's see what it does to the hangover
So I'm just getting to grips with TR. I've not got a power meter so am using virtual power with HR and speed/cadence and a Fluid 2.
I've done a lab max and sub max test so have 'official' FTP, LTHR and HR bands (amongst a host of data!) and am trying to centre winter base training on that. I've found a tick box in the TR profile to use HR based workouts but it doesn't really seem to have done much - I was wondering if anyone here has any insight into how to make this work?
FWIW and as an aside, I've found the TR power guess better than Zwifts. TR 8 min test gave me an FTP of 228 watts; Zwifts 20 min test gave 178 watts (!) and the lab test FTP is 270 watts. Im 75kg. With the limited,suing around I've done, I think TR is more of a tool than Zwift (currently).
Anyway, any advice re HR centred training would be appreciated. Last night I just ignored to power band and kept to my HR zones (although to be fair they were close) but it'd be nice to be able to use HR as the driving metric (perhaps too Luddite these days?!)
The point about the FTP values isn't their absolute accuracy but their consistency within the particular training tool, so if you only ever bother about FTP within Trainerroad then there is no point comparing that value with one obtained in Zwift or in a lab. Of course it's reassuring if they are reasonably close.
From the figures you give it seems like you might have the input data for your turbo wrong so TR gives an incorrect output. Again consistency is key - use the same resistance setting, the same pressure in the rear tyre (use a digital meter like the Topeak rather than the one on your pump), the same pressure between the tyre and the turbo's roller.
The difference between using power and HR is that power measures what you are doing whereas HR measures how your body is coping with what you have done. Training by HR zones is fine for steady state stuff, the Z2 & Z3 long steady rides, though even here you will suffer from cardiac drift as cumulative fatigue sets in and at the end of a ride you will be going slower for the same HR output. Speed on the road is directly related to power input not HR output.
I've taken this ride https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2635133-Carson-45 from TR as an example (purely because it's the most recent at the time I'm writing this). The last effort is a bit wayward so we'll ignore that for this discussion but the first three are reasonable. Notice how the red line for the HR gradually rises both during the effort and across efforts whereas line for the power output is reasonably steady (ignoring the minor fluctuations which look a lot worse than they really are). More importantly look at the HR during the rest intervals - the rider's heart is doing nearly as much work during those as during the efforts themselves.
A second example, this time of short explosive efforts https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2635126-Dana notice how even though the power output follows the target power the HR bears no resemblance to what the rider is doing, it ramps up to 170 and stays up there even though the rider's output is varying by 40% or so. Obviously for whatever reason the rider failed to finish the session but the point holds.
Before I started with TR I used HR zones using the workouts feature on my Garmin, it was just really hard work to do anything consistently especially with short sprint bursts where the effort was over before my heart had responded.
One of TR's support guys - trevorduise(?) posts on here. TR's support is pretty good too so they will be able to help you as well.
The only advantage to using HR for you with TR seems to be "getting in the right zone" better than the TR estimated power. The easy answer is to ignore HR, do a fresh 8 or 20 minute test using TR and use that value as your FTP. TR never really claimed to be "accurate", but more be consistent. You'll find power (virtual or real) a far better informer of effort, especially as the intervals get shorter. There are a lot of reasons to use "power" rather than HR and a quick Google should pop up a lot of info. As an example, you'll also get better information as to your week to week load and a whole host of other things that come with training with "power".
Or get a Power Meter. Can be had for around 400 quid with some of the current deals and is a lot less faff than worrying about getting a consistent turbo setup.
less faff than worrying about getting a consistent turbo setup.
exactly why i went down the stages/dm turbo - no faff
I have npn TR depression. I missed a session last night - just too tired / children conspired against me and I new if I tried I wouldn't do it justice, so hit the beer instead.
Its supposed to be rest week next week with me finishing sweet spot with Mary Austin tomorrow. I'm tempted instead to do last nights workout - Lamark - tomorrow and Mary A Tuesday instead, then doing the rest week until the following Tuesday when I start Build with a 20min Test.
Sounds like a good plan Kryton. I've found that as the plans build up I need to ensure that "proper riding" doesn't get in the way and it also helps to be flexible as to the indicated days but I try to keep to the indicated order of workouts. With the bad weather this weekend I might do the TR sessions instead of risking the high winds.
@mrblobby & @dirtyrider True a power meter obviates the need for a consistent setup to a degree but £400+ vs a moment's attention to detail is quite a hit.
Yes I do the same whitestone. I normally ride Sunday's losing that days TR session, but this week various kids duties remove the opportunity.
Its going to take a bit of commitment to spent 1:30 in the pain cave Tuesday after work doing Mary A....
I accept that the better solution is to buy a power meter but thats just not possible at the moment. I'm pretty sure I can balance the virtual power with the heat rate zones, just wish I could make HR the driving metric for a workout.
Re: power and HR - I am of the understanding that what we are trying to do in the HR zones / power zones is work specific aspects of our physiology to drive innate exercise/stress adaption. In that respect isn't the better measure the one that is measuring physiology - ie. HR? It strikes me that power is the output and measuring that / training to that risks ignoring what the physiology is doing. Using whitestones workout above - to maintain power as you tire results in a greater physiological demand so HR goes up to maintain a set and level wattage. As I understand it that can result in crossing over physiological zones (eg. endurance into tempo) whilst trying to keep the power within the set zone - which would change the adaption you are trying to affect. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick completely?
I have an old bike permanently hooked up to the turbo so even if trainerroad virtual power is way off, the set up is very consistent allowing comparisons to be made. The only thing I do is ensure the psi of the tyre is the sa for each session. Means doing a session is quick too - no faffing about changing wheels etc.
Shortbread - likewise. Same bike remains hooked up over winter and PSI kept constant. Makes for easier sessions.
Infidel, I was under the impression that HR may vary depending on freshness, temperature, stress levels etc. whereas power is a more consistent factor to measure against.
HR also takes a while to adjust to your interval, probably okay for longer steady state intervals but less so for short sharper work as the interval is over by the time your HR has adjusted.
In the absence of a power meter I'd use virtual power set to the FTP given by 8 minute test in TrainerRoad, your lab FTP will have no bearing since your using an different set up and actually measuring speed against an assumed resistance (the power curve of your trainer).
Likewise for Zwift, I'd use the FTP given by the software in isolation from anything else.
@infidel Haze has it right - your HR isn't just dependent upon the effort that you are making but also your current physiological state, it's a rather blunt instrument when compared to power. It's not as blunt as perceived effort but if you've got the chance to use power then that will be more accurate. You don't need to buy a power meter, so long as you use the same system throughout a training regimen, the actual figures don't matter it's just the power relative to the system's standard (FTP or whatever) that matters.
HR zone training was fine when it was all we (as amateur riders) had, much better than the guesswork that went before. Power is consistent in that pedalling at a given cadence in a particular gear will produce the same power whether you are fresh, tired, recovering from illness, a kilo heavier than yesterday, etc.
Don't worry about balancing power and HR zones, while they are similar riding on a turbo produces a different (usually higher) HR response to riding outside as there is basically no easing up or coasting. Cardiac drift is the principal reason why training to HR zones is a blunt instrument. The physiological zones (endurance, tempo, etc) are [b]input[/b] zones not response zones, training is the attempt to bring your response in to line with the input - fitness in simple terms.
Guys, thanks for the time and advice. Just spent an hour on the phone with a mate who has bee training with HR and power for years. He's also a physio so had a good understanding of the underlying science. Between him and you guys I now properly understand. He had a look at my trainerroad files and the Vo2 Max and submit test results and showed me where they met - its pretty much as you all said; although the numbers for FTP are different they are reflecting the same thing so I'm going to work with the virtual power bearing the HR in mind as second line.
Krypton - thanks for the pointer. I am actually saving up for the BePro pedals. I've been offered a quark saturn for not much more that the powertap here but would rather wait a bit and buy something new with a warranty and which I can transfer between bikes. DCRainmaker seems to think the BePros are OK so I thought I'd wait a bit.
Double dose of Sufferlandria this morning. TGTTOS followed up with Extra Shot.
Lovely!
Did Palisade today - I was going to do it yesterday but a shopping trip to Leeds got in the way 🙄 Definitely hard work - I was thinking of backing right off or omitting the last interval altogether but gave it a go and hung in there to the end. The power was fluctuating a bit during the last interval - I can normally stick within a Watt or two of the target but was up and down by about 10 Watts either side for that one.
Now a recovery week before things ramp up again - Sweet Spot Mid Volume 2 😳
Whitestone, your not helping me... I'm a week behind on sweetspot, Warlow was tough enough yesterday. Very wet, windy and muddy mtb today was a good reminder that I do actually enjoy riding bikes 🙂
I did Warlow today. It wasn't easy, but not that hard really. I bumped it up by 5% for the last 9 minute set, and 10% for the last hard minute. So, I'm new at this really - does this mean my FTP is just set too low, or is this workout not supposed to be really hard (it is base training after all)?
I missed out on Warlow last week as I went for a ride with my wife - getting out for a ride on the road or fell shows the reason why you are doing the training.
The "over" efforts on Palisade aren't quite at the same level as those on Warlow but do go on and you need to hang in there ... I'm actually a week behind on the plan as I was recovering from a chest infection when I should have started. Given I should have done Palisade yesterday and Maclure today I might bring the rest week's sessions forward by a day so I've got a bit more flexibility next weekend.
@gray - depends where in the plan (if you are following one) you are, on the SP mid volume it comes towards the end of a month of effort so feels hard. Also if you've only done one FTP test then it's possible then it isn't entirely accurate (within Trainerroad) as you won't have got the test right, doing another test might realign things - you'll be both fitter and be better at the test.
Whitestone, I ride every day either commuting or just messing around in winter and find the rigid nature of a plan difficult to follow so end up following the order but not always the days. I've always been more of a sprinter and never done much turbo work before so find the constant efforts interesting... It's a big mental thing for me not to give up, use an erg trainer so handily don't get chance or I would.
Gray, as above re FTP but for me sweetspot is hard but as they say it's not that fatiguing, ie hurts a bit while doing it but can do it again the next day, and the next.
However I did have the thought why ? Not getting paid to do this, never likely to and all this work to hopefully get a few podiums if I'm lucky. Then sod it, why not 🙂
Virginia for me tonight , plugging away at the very beginning of traditional base low volume . All going well really .
Thanks both. Yep, I'm doing it as part of the sweet spot base plan. Mainly following the low volume variant, but been doing about 4 - 8 hours of low intensity outdoors on top (sometimes dropping the weekend turbo as a result). I've done the 8 minute test twice. Seemed to judge it pretty well considering - was only just able to hang on, but very constant throughout and between the efforts. Probably have got fitter, and also have realised that I did a firmware update a couple of weeks ago that could have messed with the trainer. Have drifted my FTP setting up by 10 watts since starting the plan. Will retest in a couple of weeks I guess. Of course, it's possible that I got clean looking tests by simply not killing myself enough!
Oh and just in case any turbo-curious people are reading this, this is my first dabble on a turbo in years. Previously I tried it and managed about 3 goes of half an hour before giving the horrid thing away. A smart trainer plus TrainerRoad really is a game changer in multiple dimensions. 90 minutes is no problem, and it's really quite rewarding.
Interested in what the high volume traditional base has as workouts etc. Any way of finding out without buying?
I don't think there is if you aren't signed up. I've a couple of "free intro months" to give away, you can have one of those if you want. I'll need to PM you with the link but that's at home so it will be tonight before I can do it.
Just looked at the High Vol traditional base. Week 1 is Warren, week 2 is Kolp, week 3 is Conness, week 4 is Gibbs. I.e. every session in those weeks is the same workout apart from the 8 minute test in week 1.
Rest week for me this week! Sweet spot 2 after that though...
Adsh Mail me and I can send you a screenshot if you like with description of trad base
The very last week of High Volume Trad Base (week 11 of 12) has you on the turbo for 14:30 hours 😯 I wonder how many people actually spend that much time on a turbo as I'd go spare.
Doing about 10hrs at the mo cos of the weather but commute will reduce that. Howsyourdad1 - e mail sent
About 10hrs is as much turbo as I can get in before Mrs Blobby starts complaining!
Wondering what people's experiences are with BLE devices? As good as using ANT+? Just got a new PM that does BLE so now iPad TrainerRoad is a nice option to have without any silly dongle.
Also anyone recommend a good cheapish BLE HRM? The 20 quid ones of Amazon any good?
I have a Wahoo Tickr. I'm not running it on BLE but I'm not that impressed to be honest. It drops out if I sit up on the bike and cross my arms across my chest(so basically stretching out during a rest period). Outside it gives false readings a lot in the wind (which I attribute to static off the jersey).
Sweamrs is also training so 5 hours on the turbo (we're sharing one) is about all I can achieve but that's about all I'm mentally capable of anyway I reckon.
I use ipad for trainerroad with Kickr and occasionally stages both on BLE with no issues or dropout. Have recently started using a Mio link arm/wrist HR and that runs through BLE perfectly and records on Garmin as well as Trainerroad app. I just need to get a BLE cadence then won't bother with Garmin on the turbo.
Use the Mio for commutte as well, can be a big of pain to make due in right place but when right no issues, but can't use on mtb as slips or misreads.
FTP test tonight...i'm currently undecided about doing either the 20min or 8min TR test or giving one of the tests on Zwift a go!
On top of that, I'm using my MTB on the turbo at the moment and only have a 36/26 set up. I have the resistance on the turbo wacked up but I'm a bit worried I'll still end up spinning out!!!!
Oh why is my life so hard 😆
Could barely hold z2 for 75minutes this morning. Another hour tonight and 2.5hrs tomorrow. Can the knowledge of how it feels to fail provide enough motivation.... The perils of starting a block too hard.
Oh why is my life so hard
Speak for yourself, I've been reduced to a diet of poached eggs and fizzy water to get through Brass Monkeys with any credibility.
Mary Austin tonight - with a pinched Rhomboid muscle, this isn't going to be pleasant.
Speak for yourself, I've been reduced to a diet of poached eggs and fizzy water to get through Brass Monkeys with any credibility.
I could happily live on poached eggs...not sure my guts would like it though
Mary Austin, looks a proper workout that!
Still at least another week before I start crash dieting for BM 😉
Trying for outdoor rides all this week, been too much turbo recently.
Me too Mr Blobby. My wife decided to tear her ACL playing Hockey so the resulting running around has left me a bit time crunched.
Luckily after tonight its rest week, I'm marshalling the CX regionals on Sunday so I'll ride there and back, sitting on may arse eating sandwiches and watching the racing in between. Might try to get out Friday lunchtime also.
Have we discussed the TrainerRoad BETA version yet? If not, I am in the only one that finds following training plans a bit crap now as you cant see which ones you've done? Or I am missing something somewhere?
No we haven't and yes I agree... It would be nice if as you went through a plan they coloured green or the like. With the potential to reset at the start of a training "season".
I'd also love to be able to compare stats from sessions. e.g I think my cadence has improved since last year but I'm currently basing that on eyeballing the same sessions from last year to this year.
happy and sad that it's not me then. The old version was much simpler to see what you were meant to be doing, I will definitely forget what I'm up to with the new one
Let TR know if it's not good, they are usually good with feedback.