Why for the life of me do they do it....? I saw three riders around the monkey trail at Cannock chase today riding without lids on ...!! Even they could get a serious head injury round a trail like that...when I casually suggested to one lad "It might be safer with a lid one" it was followed by "well, I have been riding my bike for 14 years without one !!"
I found it incredulous !!
Well I would not do it ...I mean ride a trail centre he must have a head injury 😉
Personally i find it foolish [ and probably would not ride with them] but its their life and choice to make.
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Darwinism in action.
Not something I'd do but I can't really see what business it is of yours what they do
If someone were to inappropriately comment on what I chose to wear when riding MY bike It would be a lot ruder of a reply than that 😉
Ah I remember the days of TJ and a similar thread, I think Pook does too....
it is called free choice. why not ban mtbing if your worried about safety?
Had a couple of guys ride past us today whilst trail building, rode a black feature that I prefer have pads on for, no helmets. I put it down to Darwinism in action, FC guy with us was less impressed as he has to pickbup the pieces, both in his FC role and as a member of the local mountain rescue.
Nobody died. Nobody rendered themselves incapable of procreating.
Why do people keep mentioning Darwinism ?
In fact, has there ever been a death at a UK trail centre, helmet wearer of otherwise, that was caused by crashing a mountain bike ?
'cos they were in canoes.
I don't understand why people do it, but it is their choice. I guess another way of thinking about it is that by even getting on your bike and riding a black route you've accepted quite a high level of risk (vs sitting at home), but you wouldn't like it if people shouted it at you.
I wore a hat today...at a trail centre.
It's a bit like a helmet.
I did not die.
I wasn't wearing gloves either.
Flame on.....
I did it once but only because I left lying around at the top of the whites/skyline climb. Good excuse to go back up and have another play.
TBH I don't give one about the helmet thing, I'm more outraged they are on the trail in this weather and wrecking it for me with their selfishness - 👿
In fact, has there ever been a death at a UK trail centre, helmet wearer of otherwise, that was caused by crashing a mountain bike ?
Yes quite a few.
I agree - I think its foolish and actually very selfish - riding without a helmet however 'good you are' can lead to life changing injurues. Even a relatively minor injury can cause a lot of collateral damage to the injured persons family (and stresses the nhs to boot) - I have been there and had to cope with someone with a 'minor head injury ' - trust me it wasnt fun for all concerned.
I would love the mag to do an article on the effect such an injury has on the individual / family etc. Biking / climbing / skiing are risky - in my eyes wearing a helmet alleviates that risk and keeps my head warm in the cold - so why not ? I saw 2 riders recently in a snowy snowdonia riding nice bikes / nice biking clothes and no lids - it just looked silly wearing a wooly hat..
I am sure this thread will descend into the usual polarised camps etc but to those who dont see the need - think what your nearest and dearest would feel if you took a head injury because you choose not to wear a lid. I know its not 100% but if I was clipped by a car and sent sliding along the road I would want my helmet or similarly if riding a lakeland tech rockfest and I went OTB....
Anyways my 2ps worth. I wouldnt want to ride with a non helmet wearer - it just isnt clever.
paul
Were you on a fully rigid 29er at llandegla Chris?
Is it just the lack of a helmet that folk find upsetting?
What about knee pads, elbow pads, neck braces, back braces, pressure suits etc? Where do you draw the line?
Maaaaaaybe 
If I'd known it was you.... I would have knocked you off 😀
Given how tame most trail centres are I don't really see the problem. You're far more likely to get a head injury slipping over in the shower and I don't hear many people moaning about lack of helmets there.
@snowpaul you do know the specs on helmets don't you? you know the impacts they are designed to absorb?
a helmet may help, a helmet may not help.
TBH the time i am most grateful for helmets is low branches!
In fact, has there ever been a death at a UK trail centre, helmet wearer of otherwise, that was caused by crashing a mountain bike ?
No idea what the answer to this is. But there does seem to be quite a few serious, life-changing neck and spinal injuries happen at trail centres. Yet outside of the DHers you'll see very few people kitted out in neck braces and spine protectors. And when you do kit yourself out in all the bells and whistles you'll get flamed for that too.
Some things just seem fashionable to hate.
Yes quite a few.
Do you have any information on these ?
Haha i think you may have caught me near the end. I was day-dreaming at about 2mph until i noticed what appeared at first to be fun fair attraction appearing behind me 😆
Freedom of choice? I've been riding all my life, only recently started wearing a lid no reason for it other than hmmm maybe ill get a helmet, there is of course the age old argument that whilst wearing a helmet you are almost tricked into doing things more dangerous than you would without one, I raced motocross for a long time and coming home from that and going out on a bicycle I never felt it dangerous enough to warrant a lid. Everyone has their own perception of how dangerous any activity can be and it's up to then to protect themselves accordingly, I'd happily ride the black stuff at Cannock without a lid, I feel I'm ok to do that and I have done in the past .
I think their reply was a bit too polite.
I wonder if they had considered the risks and come to their own conclusion?
they do it because we live in a free country and they want to. What business is it of yours? Do you also critique their choice of toilet paper?
Did you ask to see a copy of their risk assessment?
In fact, has there ever been a death at a UK trail centre, helmet wearer of otherwise, that was caused by crashing a mountain bike ?
Yes quite a few.
I've had a look and can't find any evidence of this.
Would be interested to see where you got this from ?
Everyone has their own perception of how dangerous any activity can be and it's up to then to protect themselves accordingly
Surely you don't [b]really[/b] mean that people could actually have audacity to do that, when they should be grateful that the majority of STW have already been caring and thoughtful enough to do it for them?
I bet those guys at the trail centre even ski or board without helmets too. Bloody adrenaline junkies, the lot of them. Ban them and beat them around the head with a stick. That'll learn'em 🙄 😉
This comes up fairly regularly here. I'm for freedom of choice, but I can come at this from a different perspective.
14 months ago, wearing my helmet - because I think it prudent to do so - I crashed my bike on a bit of trail I've ridden a couple of hundred times. I was unconscious for several minutes after landing on my head. My helmet was damaged, but didn't look too bad. I walked off the hill, but had to be told what to do and where to go. Superficially I required the removal of grit from my head and took 6 stitches. Apart from being sore, a bit dizzy and suffering a bit of shock I felt 'normal'.
At home, It soon became apparent that I was exhibiting stroke like symptoms - I tired easily, found noise difficult to deal with and struggled to process conversation in loud places like clubs, pubs,etc...
A month later I left my easy, undemanding bike mechanic job to become a supervisor in a fast moving and dynamic renewable installation company. I had previous done a similar demanding job, but as the demands of the job rose, it became clear that I couldn't handle stress well, had difficulty managing multiple tasks, and couldn't seem to think ahead far enough to plan or spot problems before they arose.
I had a minor brain injury.
My recovery has been slow and steady since. I still struggle with conversation in loud rooms, and I'm still a bit slower on the uptake than I was, (although, if you met me you wouldn't be able to tell any different).
I am lucky. I was wearing a helmet, and landed on my head at the relatively slow speed of 23mph. Even then, I have two scars, a chip out of my skull and over a year later, I'm still not quite right. That's from the lowest possible class of brain injury. I shudder to think what the outcome would have been without the helmet.
I've just came back from town, and there were a load of pissed up folk, and [i]Not one[/i] of them had a helmet on!
Nicely done OP
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I was at a trail centre once, and there was a bunch of people riding down some hills on push bikes! I suggested that it'd be a lot safer if they got off and walked, but they didn't like that idea.
I was incredulous too.
[Not something I'd do but I can't really see what business it is of yours what they do]
I had a similar experience, 2 guys without lids going down a trail in front of us at GT. We said nothing but our thoughts where this will end badly. We gave them a bit of time to go ahead and after about 5 minutes headed down ourselves to find one of the guys unconscious on the trail at a blind berm and his mate in the bushes making his way back up to his mate. The guy on the deck was coming round but sported a nasty gash, so we offered first aid assistance and help the guys find the main road down where we went our separate ways. So just like that it became our business.
I think I see a mushroom cloud over the Burg.
Each to there own I rode for years without a lid. They only have themselves to blame if they come off and have a head injury.
ScienceOfficer, sorry to hear your tale and thanks for airing it.
IMO helmet compulsion is a bad idea but I do think we should communicate the downsides of not doing so in such a way that very few people come to the conclusion that helmetless is a good idea.
More stories like yours being published would help I think.
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Oh. Er, sorry!
Don't be sorry for me at least it happened doing something I love instead of being randomly knocked down in the street!
Ah the Christmas troll does he have tinsel on his bridge
I'm sitting on the fence wi this one, despite having a few very bad crashes which have totally destroyed my helmets and left me concussed and dizzy etc, i'm pretty sure if i wasn't wearing a helmet at the time i would be a drooling mess but i'm firmly of the opinion that it's a choice whether to wear one or not - we used to ride all day/days at a time as kids in the middle of nowhere, up mountains and desolate forest roads, crashing constantly and bouncing back up as we dribbled blood everywhere in argyll back in the 80's, we never wore helmets then so i don't see what the fuss is about now - freedom of choice.
I often pop out for a run round my local trails without a helmet, usually wearing earphones - i prob don't go quite as fast as when i do wear a helmet but it's my choice.
5yrs old and I used to constantly ride down Woodhouse hill in Hudds. I lived. Tbh most of the time I wear a helmet to please folk. Its liberating riding without one.
Yes Ive suffered a head injury previously too.
Mitigate loss/damage? Get an XBox.
Nearly all the time I wear a helmet. Sometimes an XC one, sometimes a full face. If i am out just pootling with children and dog I don't bother. it depends where I am riding and how I am feeling, Sometimes have pads and sometimes not. Generally speaking it must be a good idea to have a hat because there is so little inconvenience but the risks are high - see Scienceofficer, hope you are ok and like your stoicism.
Street and BMX is where the problem is. There the fashion is no helmet. Mtb and downhill is 99% helmet wearing.
Don't think what we did as a kid is relevant, things have moved on.
Isn't it the case that helmets only assist in mitigating a quite narrow range of serious injuries?
Seems like a topic for those who have to have strong opinions to me.
Don't think what we did as a kid is relevant, things have moved on.
People have softer heads nowadays?
Isn't it the case that helmets only assist in mitigating a quite narrow range of serious injuries?
The SNELL test - the toughest helmet test, now phased out - tested at an impact speed of 12.5mph.
That'll be fine for me then!
Oops!
Just trying to understand the logic of the 12.5mph thing. Does that mean that a 15moh crash would be like hitting a bare head in the ground at 2.5mph? I guess that that's a direct impact as opposed to the skidding along wearing your skull away type crash though.
The only data for helmet function is taken from road collision models. There's nothing for off-road, and the data isn't really transferable. I've always worked on the basis that something is better than nothing.
"trying to understand the logic of the 12.5mph thing"
I guess it could assume you get a chance to brake a bit before crashing?
Are Euro Ncap crash tests for cars done at something like 45mph?
I guessed with those they assume some braking before collision?
Just trying to understand the logic of the 12.5mph thing. Does that mean that a 15moh crash would be like hitting a bare head in the ground at 2.5mph? I guess that that's a direct impact as opposed to the skidding along wearing your skull away type crash though.
No, impact energy goes as the square of velocity - i.e. a 25mph crash is 4x as bad as a 12.5mph one. The tests do try impacts on flat surfaces and edges (like a kerb).
Perhaps your childhood was very safe and controlled but if you had seen/experienced some of the incredibly daft things we did as kids then perhaps you may retract that statement, jumping our bikes into the river avich falls just up the road from our tiny forestry village was a fav in the summertime...sometimes we hurt ourselves pretty badly (broken arms, big gashes, numerous black n' blue bruises and the occasional fall down the rock face which removed a fair bit of skin) but mostly we got away with it, or towing each other on our motorbikes over the football field so we could see who could jump the furthest, fergus won this competition as his brother owned an xt 250 but he landed on his forks and faceplanted pretty badly which knocked out all his front teeth and broke his nose....our parents told us to be more careful and not be so stupid otherwise they'd take our motorbikes and pushbikes off us.
I'd better not tell you about attempt to climb up then cycle down Ben Cruachan either?, three very optimistic 14 yr olds on a week long wild camping trip wearing nothing but shorts n' t- shirts in the height of a mid 80's scorching summer riding very dodgy bmx's and no such thing as spares/camalbaks/pads/gloves/waterbottles etc......we never made it to the top, we never managed to ride all the way down either but we had fun and an adventure trying, we all crashed and we all left blood up there but we survived and that's what kid's should be doing in the summertime.
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River Avich waterfall, i can still remember the feeling of landing in the water at the height of summer, icy cold and sucked the breath out of your lungs but so much fun. We used to jump off the rocks on the left hand side of the pic as there was a wee run down onto them from the forestry road above.
Each to their own, means more chance of decent healthy organs from fit young uns for us oldies.
Somafunk - spot on. What's funny is this is about a trail centre - a nice, safe, groomed MTB play park.
Jeez that "Darwinism in action" comments really gets on my tits.
Every time .
Well said Soma.
james - Member"trying to understand the logic of the 12.5mph thing"
I guess it could assume you get a chance to brake a bit before crashing?
Nah, it's just an arbitrary number. Some folks believe (choose to believe?) that it means helmets protect up to 12.5mpg then "switch off" which is just gibberish.
Also, importantly, remember that it's the collision speed that counts- it's not whether you were going at 12.5mph, it's whether your head hits an object at 12.5mph.
Just pointing out that the brain trauma is caused from kinetic energy transferred from your[b] mass X velocity[/b], into a small impact area of your thicky bony skull. The heavier you are the worse you injuries will be. This is why children dont get hurt in falls that hospitalise adults.
In terms of hidden hazards and gradients, trail centres are safe trails. Folks get injured in trail centres because you can achieve silly high speeds.
I'm not an expert, but actually I think the trauma is more the brain rattling about inside your skull - so it's brain mass that matters.
Kinetic energy is also mass x velocity [u]squared[/u] - which is why speed is important, a small increase in speed makes a big difference.
I'm not sure why SNELL chose 12.5mph - other standards, including the CEN standards , are more lax.
We went to Scotland a few years back and one of our group from work didn't have a helmet on I suggested it may be a good idea to wear one, he didn't agree. Come the end of the week , big crash fractured skull , some time asleep in Itu . That was me btw not him , I had a helmet on he didn't , but he didn't crash at high speed. I'm sure there is a moral to that somewhere
Oh yeah it's: (mass x velocity squared)/2. It was late.
My friend Phil suffered near fatal brain injury from an OTB onto concrete when is steerer snapped on his Jake The Snake. It was all on the front right lobe which was the point of impact. The hemet was in pieces. Two years later and he can work 25 hours a week and his speech is almost normal again. But a chunk of memory is gone forever.
Timely troll. Seeing the photos of my nephew on Facebook last night. Hit a curb. Two holes in his head through to the bone. Exactly where a helmet would have prevented it. Still in hospital with concussion whilst they assess the internal damage. Troll away boys and girls 🙄
To all you Darwinism in action people, do you wear a helmet in the car?
If not then stop being hypocritical. Every argument you use for wearing helmets on your bike, especially on the roads, can be applied to wearing a helmet in the car.
A massive number of fatalities and serious injuries in car accidents are the result of head injuries.
All the "I don't notice I'm wearing it and it's no hassle" applies to car helmets.
So please stop being so patronising and hypocritical.
FC guy with us was less impressed as he has to pickbup the pieces, both in his FC role and as a member of the local mountain rescue.
Yeah I know that feeling. You cant change some attitudes which is a shame. Everything is fine until you hit something hard. A bit like jumping out of a plane without a parachute, everything is fine until you reach terra firma.
Each to there own I rode for years without a lid. They only have themselves to blame if they come off and have a head injury.
Yes it is their choice. The trouble is they are making a choice for a lot of other people as well. The person that finds them out cold at the side of the trail. The Ambulance crew that is called out to pick them up. The A&E staff and the friends and loved ones that will be caring for them. But yes they choose to make the choice not to wear one.
so what is worst?
pootling along without a helmet on or hammering it with a helmet on?
Saying people deserve injury for not wearing a helmet is like saying you deserve a broken jaw for not wearing a full face helmet, a broken knee for not wearing knee pads, etc.
We all have our own level of acceptable risk, why not accept that everyone else's won't necessarily be the same as yours?
As an aside, can I suggest that we take a page from bikeforums's book and make a sticky helmet thread like this one:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/771371-The-helmet-thread
It seems necessary to have this conversation, so I'm starting a new thread for it. You can argue as strenuously as you want, but insults are not allowed and anyone guilty of insults may find their posting privileges here to be adversely affected. If you find yourself typing one of the the words "idiot" or "stupid," you might want to reconsider hitting the submit button. I can assure you, some post in this thread will raise your blood pressure unless you have the patience of a saint. Be forewarned.This is the only thread where a discussion of the pros and cons of wearing a helmet will be discussed. Others will be locked or deleted.
It feels like most of us are just hitting copy/paste now anyway.
[quote=Rich ]Saying people deserve injury for not wearing a helmet is like saying you deserve a broken jaw for not wearing a full face helmet, a broken knee for not wearing knee pads, etc.
We all have our own level of acceptable risk, why not accept that everyone else's won't necessarily be the same as yours?
+1 And has already been pointed out, you're choosing to descend a bump, rocky, root-covered track on a mountain bike. Stand back a bit and think how that looks to the casual observer, non-biking paramedic etc.
Ive been lurking on this forum for a few months now and this thread has spurred me on to sign up so here's my view.
Started mtb'ing through a mate who insisted I get a helmet before he would take me along, I insisted I didn,t need one but brought a cheap £14 one from Argos or somewhere to appease him.
Second time out got a very simple descent wrong off piste at Cannock, and got thrown off the bike backwards landing on my back bouncing my head off the ground.
Result? I got up and walked away from it but had one very sore back for about a month and one very dented helmet which would have been the base of my skull had I not been wearing one, best 14 quid I ever spent.
Wouldn't dream of riding without one now. BTW I used to be a steel erector and would reguarly walk around the steel 30 to 40 foot up with no harness clipped on so not averse to taking the odd risk (couldn't do it now though, too old and sensible) 😆
Andy-do you know a helmet wetld have stopped concussion? ("Of course it would" is not an answer!)
As I understand it, the helmet tests were based on the speed achieved by a child falling to the ground, and Snell went "a bit better". I think the test only relates to whether the helmet stays in one piece on impact.
Couple this logic with the limitations on the weight we will put up with on our heads, and it seems clear to me that helmets are no panacea.
I have had crashes both whilst wearing a helmet and not wearing a helmet, at various occasions I hit my head during these crashes.
I'm still here?
And do fell runners wear helmets? They go quite fast?
Andy-do you know a helmet wetld have stopped concussion? ("Of course it would" is not an answer!)
Al - who can say one way or another? In my nephews case it would have prevented the holes looking at the photos but hard to say either way about the concussion. I suspect it would have lessoned the impact. But of course I cant prove that.
Any kind of protection is risk mitigation. Risk is all about the impact if it happens. The impact of a head injury is probably a bit more severe so it justifies additional protection
As Onion says
. Very true!you're choosing to descend a bump, rocky, root-covered track on a mountain bike. Stand back a bit and think how that looks to the casual observer,
It's more a case of trying to choose what colour to go for
http://www.koolstofcoaching.com/which-helmet-
druid omitted "uninformed".
It's irrelevant what a casual observer thinks, it's not a PR exercise.
I'd always wear and recommend one,
But its your head at the end of the day, I'm not going to cancel a ride with someone if they choose not to wear one.
Obviously massively differing opinions on this thread. Agree that ultimately it is down to the individual to decide. That said, given that our hobby involves descending mountains/hills at speed, in close proximity to trees, rocks and drops, I'm of the belief that anyone who doesn't wear a helmet is nuts. With regard to other areas of body protection, I wear a backpack with integral (allegedly) spine protection. I figure that the two potentially life-threatening/changing injuries are head/spinal injuries and if I can mitigate a little against that risk, then I'd be crazy not to. Does that make me in any way morally superior to those that don't? Of course not, but I still think that people who don't need to have their head examined 😉
Id wear one of these.
[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cardboard-helmet-passes-safety-tests-35999/ ]Cardboard hat[/url]