Forum menu
Big D as a point.
What will happen the day the FC/ranger/owner of the land will get pissed off about wild trail building and decide to ban MTB?
What would have that achieve? Not much I guess. There is plenty of amazingly nice epic ride that we add to stop because mtb have been ban from the area or trail are simply not manageable any more. And why all that because very clever (and skill apparently) lazy fat asses that can't pedal uphill have start doing some shuttles, going down at full speed without any respect for walkers and cutting trough hairpins.
So what that kind of attitude will achieve...
Ironically it is the lattice of different strips and pockets of land on Leith, all owned by very different people (Wotton Estate, FC, NT) and made more complicated by leasing and management (some bits are managed by the Surrey Ranger, even if the ownership is not council, for example) that makes Leith Hill slightly more tricky to come up with any kind of strategy but also sort of ideal for sneaky building.
Anyone that thinks they have a "right" to do full on DH/Freeride just any old where though is mistaken. There's a big safety difference between trundling around and enjoying the countryside by bike and building big gaps with serious consequences if the rider cocks up.
I should clarify some of my points on this matter. Firstly, the trail was referring to was the one jump line and trail that leads down the from ridge-line which faces (i.e. opposite) the ridge where summer lighting runs. No doubt there are others. That area is littered with all sorts of stuff and to discriminate against one group of riders only highlights the ignorance and inadequacies of the original poster.
A few quick points:
- Despite how it may have appeared, I'm not actually advocating building uncontrolled trails either. What I can't stand is individuals who focus on some people as the problem and use ridiculous arguments like it is a) dangerous (it's not really is it?) and b) destroying wildlife (how? knife-crimed I imagine).
- I can think of several examples of unsustainable trails in the Leith- Holmbury-Pitch area. e.g. Areas around deliverance where weekend warriors have turned a single line into a motorway, the section dropping into the Pitch car park and several trails near the Holbury St Mary Car park. Oh and how about the bottom of BKB? I could go on. I actually think the mini-DH is one of the better trails up there - it doesn't go directly down the hill!! If you ride it, you don't drag half the hill down with you...
If the real problem is with trails that truly causing damage through erosion and poor routing then we're in agreement. However, it's not the downhillers doing this, it's every rider that rides unsustainable trails, of which (unfortunately) there are too many! If we're honest, I suspect the environmental problems and perceived dangers are not really the issue though, are they MrW?
PS Bent Udder - Don't worry, I think SL, SL(DH) and BKB are brilliant! The work of the Redlands Crew and Friends of Hurtwood Control are very much appreciated.
I'm Not Local, and have only a passing familiarity with the trails in question, but I do wonder why some people feel the need to build their "own" trail in a mountain biking honeypot that already has a lot of trails for varied abilities. If you look through a trail building thread on Pinkbike you'll see all sorts of mud and sticks-built eyesores, which are probably just a stone's throw away from something virtually identical, but better located and better made.
I'm Not Local, and have only a passing familiarity with the trails in question, but I do wonder why some people feel the need to build their "own" trail in a mountain biking honeypot that already has a lot of trails for varied abilities. If you look through a trail building thread on Pinkbike you'll see all sorts of mud and sticks-built eyesores, which are probably just a stone's throw away from something virtually identical, but better located and better made.
It's called progression: One thing that we seem to completely ignore in this country. How are you supposed to become a better rider if you continue to ride the same things over and over again? Yes, I know you can learn to ride smoother and faster, but after a while you want something to push your limits further. I think this is also a problem at some trails centres, such as Afan i.e. there is no facility for progression. Building your own stuff helps you improve the areas you want to improve.
Building your own stuff helps you improve the areas you want to improve.
that doesn't allow you free reign to build whatever you want wherever you want, if you want cool rad dude riding buy some land or move to canada
what if people just want to ride on trails sanctioned by the landowner/management? indiscriminate building just jeopardises the existing trail network. lets not forget it could all be taken away after a committee meeting.
Why do they feel the need to build? Because they feel the need to push themselves. As others have mentioned, there's a LOT of nice flowy XC-type singletrack in the Surrey Hills. But that can only keep you entertained for so long. Sometimes there's simply no substitute for going big. It's a different skillset and a different mindset. Now you will never, ever get properly big stunts built "officially", simply because they are inherently dangerous, which no landowner can admit to being happy with. So they get built illegally. Even places like Chicksands or Esher which are managed don't have much in the way of *big* stunts, simply because you can't write a risk assessment for them
I'm well aware of the trail we're talking about. The features are pretty well built, and the lips blatantly obvious enough that if you decide to ride over them without checking them first you've only got yourself to blame. There's also ample chicken lines around the big hits. One day I'll drag the big bike out and knock the entire line off, in the meantime I'll stick to the smaller stuff on the XC bike.
Once that trail gets officially discovered and trashed, all that will happen is another one will get knocked up somewhere else, equally illegal. Whilst I'd far rather the existing trails were well managed and maintained, than we ended up with more shonkily built stuff, I'm deeply in awe of the dedication of the guys who spend days and days building what they want to ride.
And yes, sure they can "ban" us from the hills officially. How much do you think that's going to bother those who are already building illegally? It will just mean there's less people travelling there to ride having read about it in a magazine. Locals will *still* be going out. Hell, we all know a certain south african didn't like bikers on his land - didn't stop many people riding the trails there did it?
It's all about live and let live at the end of the day. Ride. Don't affect other users, and don't let them affect you. That goes for everyone - XC, DH, horses, walkers, landowners whatever.
Mikey, in the case of Leith Hill, I'm a bit confused because there are already some decent sized gaps and natural hucks dotted about the place. If there are people who are nailing every single one with their eyes shut (and as I say I'm not sure if this is the case) then maybe you need to move on to another location instead of just building something very similar a couple of miles away, where it's going to attract adverse attention.
I never said it did give you "free reign" to build wherever you wanted, I was just answering the guy's question about why people would want to build their own stuff.
if you want cool rad dude riding buy some land or move to canada
I have to say that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard: Why can't we have progressive riding in this country? I agree the north downs may not be the place to do it, but there is no reason why we can't have some trails, somewhere, that push people's limits, like the trails in Canada. I was in Canada in July and the xc trails there not only allow to push your limits, but are also extremely varied and extremely sustainable. The attitude you express above will only serve to hold mountain biking back as a sport, and is very short-sighted, not to mention narrow-minded. That's a bit like saying to a musician "you can't play the music you want, you have to play one particular type of music that suits everyone else".
Now you will never, ever get properly big stunts built "officially", simply because they are inherently dangerous, which no landowner can admit to being happy with.
Hmm, I havem't seen the line in question but I seriously doubt that, even though this is the gnar-core capital of the UK we're talking about, the stunts are significantly bigger than the stuff you can find at FC DH tracks and freeride parks.
Mikey, you seem to be wilfully ignoring loads of new trail developments that have sprung up over the past 10 years. Even a middle of the road centre like Afan has had two new sections added for the rad doods, although maybe you're good enough to nail all the jumps on Energy and throw in a few cheeky no-handers, in which case I apologise. 😉
I think what you really mean is "There aren't enough trails in the South East that cater to the style of riding I want to do", in which case that's unfortunate but it does come across as a bit of a me me me view of the world.
What is it with people on here (particularly from users with names that all seem to start with Mr)? Why post this tripe using absurd language they saw on the extreme channel last weekend?
There a few voices of reason on here. Others don't seem to like certain types of trail just because they can't ride it or don't want to talk to riders who they've put in box labelled 'downhillers'.
but it does come across as a bit of a me me me view of the world.
Actually I was thinking of both myself and other people who I have spoken to - who else can I comment for?
And I would totally agree that there aren't enough areas in the SE that cater for the type of riding that I want to do, but the type of riding I want to do is becoming more and more popular throughout the world, spearheaded by Canada, and England (Scotland not so much) is being left behind, because of people, such as MrSmith who are all "me me me" and don't look at what is happing in the sport on a wider basis.
if you want cool rad dude riding buy some land or move to canadaI have to say that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard: Why can't we have progressive riding in this country? I agree the north downs may not be the place to do it, but there is no reason why we can't have some trails, somewhere, that push people's limits, like the trails in Canada. I was in Canada in July and the xc trails there not only allow to push your limits, but are also extremely varied and extremely sustainable. The attitude you express above will only serve to hold mountain biking back as a sport, and is very short-sighted, not to mention narrow-minded. That's a bit like saying to a musician "you can't play the music you want, you have to play one particular type of music that suits everyone else".
there is progressive riding in this country. most of it either at private locations that can be ridden for a small fee or on land that has certain access rights and where people have been allowed to build with permission from management or landowner. you can even have somebody drive you back up to the top. it's just that the areas mentioned by the o.p do not allow the building of 'extreme stunts' and the illegal building is putting the other trail network at risk with the potential that one day the commitee could possibly turn round and say that's it no trails only the existing bridleway network. now to me anyone who builds big gaps/jumps/drops on those areas is being short sighted as they don't see the problems it causes with the owners/management. ride at porc/aston hill tilgate or build on your own land don't put other 'tame' trails at risk by your own narrow mindedness.
R979, more that I'm baffled as to why, when I go down to my local DH spot, there's often a new line or jump that adds nothing in terms of difficulty, is smaller and worse built than the existing lines, and goes over a footpath to boot. As an earlier poster says, you aren't going to get in touch with the people who built it via this forum, but it does show that it isn't all as simple as a bunch of stuffy XCers holding back the progress of mountain biking.
[i]I agree the north downs may not be the place to do it...[/i]
You think? A hugely popular National Trust-owned beauty spot used by thousands of people which is managed for wildlife conservation might not be the place to build the trails that will allow mountainbiking to progress as a sport? Good thinking. 😉
No-one who gets to decide what goes on at Leith Hill cares about "the progression of mountainbiking", whatever that is. As suggested, anyone who wants to create trails on which mountainbikign can "progress" is assuming a hell of a lot of risk. Oddly, the national trust doesn't want that in an area which is mainly used by sunday walkers, and nightjars. Getting one's own hill, rather than using one that thousands of other people manage to use without digging huge holes in it, does seem quite a sensible suggestion.
🙂
Actually I was thinking of both myself and other people who I have spoken to - who else can I comment for?And I would totally agree that there aren't enough areas in the SE that cater for the type of riding that I want to do, but the type of riding I want to do is becoming more and more popular throughout the world, spearheaded by Canada, and England (Scotland not so much) is being left behind, because of people, such as MrSmith who are all "me me me" and don't look at what is happing in the sport on a wider basis.
in an ideal world there would be a network of graded 'mincing' to 'extreeme rad doode' trails with a ski lift to the top and a coffee shop and parking at the beginning of each trail. i would love that to happen but it's obvious that's it never will. in wales or scotland but not on leith/pitch/holmbury.
as for the "Me Me Me" comment that's laughable. we are talking about an area that has a lot of other vested interests beside mountainbiking.
an insular attitude towards others is what causes problems. i.e not thinking about the consequences of unsanctioned building. and you think i have a "me me me" attitude?
Even a middle of the road centre like Afan has had two new sections added for the rad doods, although maybe you're good enough to nail all the jumps on Energy and throw in a few cheeky no-handers
You're having a laugh right? The Energy trail, Rad? Its utter sh!te! Sure theres a few "jumps" without any kind of lip (so that if you can't be bothered to learn to jump you don't get punted over the bars) near the start. Wow. Then it's just yet more middle of the road singletrack. I *almost* prefer the old fireroad route. Almost. Again its a safe trail. Dirt Merchant it ain't.
The black section a little further up is more like it - once you hit the steep bit it actualy feels like a raw natural trail - a few different line options and a couple of little jumps and drops which do take a little care in their approach and landing. Still not BIG though.
I'll take the point about the FC DH courses - thing is (as far as I understand) they're only open on race/uplift days which cost and gives you limited runs, and they're usually over the far side of the country. If you're young, skint, and without much transport, your local woods are always going to be far more appealing.
One of the things I've always liked about the Surrey Hills, is that with a little imagination, and a good mental trail map, you can prepare yourself for riding anywhere in the world. Going to Whistler? Spend some time on the steeper bits (albeit short), and doing the big stunts. Going to the Alps? Likewise hunt out for the tight tech stuff (and the steep bits too). Sure it won't prepare you for an hour of solid descending, but no individual bit of trail should be beyond you.
an insular attitude towards others is what causes problems. i.e not thinking about the consequences of unsanctioned building. and you think i have a "me me me" attitude?
Erm, excuse me, where have I said that I condone the building of unsanctioned trails on Leith hill? Please go through my posts and point me to the bit where I said that.
What I dislike is the lack of understanding of other types of riding expressed here. If you don't understand it, you refer to it as "extreeme rad doode" of other such nonsense. The point I am trying to make is that there is a world outside of your seemingly narrow view of mountain biking that is just as ligitimate as yours and the people who take part in that sort of riding should not be excluded. I do not condone the building of unsanctioned trails on Leith hill, but I do support their efforts in trying to push their limits and the sport in general, and therefore whoever is building this stuff should be entered into a dialogue, rather than being the subject of a spiteful diatribe.
As Jon says above: "If you're young, skint, and without much transport, your local woods are always going to be far more appealing."
MrA, completely agree. Poorly built trails, particularly jumps, will always be dangerous. As you've said you've not seen the trail I'm referring to. In my opinion it is very well built, and, while illegal, actually embodies some good trail design principles, like not going directly down the hill. The few jumps up top aside, it's not really a proper DH track so I don't know why it is getting treated as such.
Look, everyone who has come on here to defend this *one* trail has been polite and reasonable. The anti-DH brigade (other than being puerile) keep citing poor, unsubstantiated reasons why this will have us all excluded.
Several other legacy trails have been shut down because they were unsustainable. Is this not what should be focused on - sustainable trails? As I've already said, this seems to be ignored by some others who post here. These people are being hypocrites by highlighting some rather minor unauthorised trail building (because they don't like the style of trail) and ignoring a vast amount of damage occurring due to their (all of our) trundling on the legacy trails.
If they really did have such a deep environmental concerns about the damage mountain biking does, they should give up riding all together.
The point I am trying to make is that there is a world outside of your seemingly narrow view of mountain biking that is just as ligitimate as yours and the people who take part in that sort of riding should not be excluded
you know nothing of my view of mountainbiking. i'm certainly not very good at it but that doesn't preclude me from watching/enjoying it as non participant. i like watching DH and 4x plus a bit of bmx I know a fair few people who's livelihood depends on all types of cycling and i myself sometimes work for the cycling industry. you are confusing my terminology for a dislike of people who own body armour or have more than 6in of travel, your presumption is incorrect.
you mention "legitimate" well the trail building in question isn't and there lies the problem. if mountainbiking is going to "progress" then legitimate building is the way forward not the "me me me" attitude of unsanctioned indiscriminate trailbuilders.
If they really did have such a deep environmental concerns about the damage mountain biking does, they should give up riding all together.
This has been my arguement for ages: A pre-planned, organised, schedule of trail building and maintenance, agreed with the land-owners is essential for the survival of mountian biking in this area. This would, done properly and in accordance with IMBA guidelines, result in sustainable trails for all abilities and styles - is this going to happen? Possibly when hell freezes over.
If the trails already there aren't 'rad' enough - then they're overbiked - **** em on a rigid hardtail and suddenly the gert big DH dudes learn they aren't quite as good as they thought they were
I offered to help out on a Hurtwood dig day a while back, but was effectively told that as I didn't have trail building experience I wasn't welcome. I found it a slightly surprising stance, and I'm guessing some of the people posting here are/were involved with the digging.
Perhaps those people could explain that stance, and why I should volunteer again, and how they can expect people not to go elsewhere if they're not allowed to get involved and help with making the trails they want to ride?
Ta
This has been my arguement for ages: A pre-planned, organised, schedule of trail building and maintenance, agreed with the land-owners is essential for the survival of mountian biking in this area. This would, done properly and in accordance with IMBA guidelines, result in sustainable trails for all abilities and styles - is this going to happen? Possibly when hell freezes over.
Mikey, it's in the process of happening *now*, so don't forget to pick up your skates if you're heading to the 9th circle for a barbecue today - it's time to get building a few snowmen. 😀
Why do you think Parklife has suddenly got a lot more pleasant to ride? Keep an eye on BKB over the winter, too - the fall line's about to get fixed but good.
There is a lot of stuff happening in the background in terms of landowners, managers and NGOs at present. In terms of illicit building that affects others, most of the managers I've talked to have a pretty simple strategy - put it beyond use. As soon as something becomes big enough to be a liability problem - for example, numpties finding it and falling off it - then it will be closed down. Simple as that. Which is why the smart cheeky trail builders do not build stuff in a high-traffic area like Leith Hill, where there are lots of different interest groups about, near saturation trail use and a bunch of SSSIs and protected species around. That stuff gets found and closed down.
I know many of these trails and the illegal builders, they wont read this as they don't bother with forums
But keep ranting :thumb:
If the trails already there aren't 'rad' enough - then they're overbiked - **** em on a rigid hardtail and suddenly the gert big DH dudes learn they aren't quite as good as they thought they were
Lol, it's this attitude that really annoys the hell out of me: The downhillers I know also ride xc, road, etc and are some of the best bike handlers I've ever seen. To assume that just because they choose to ride dh, they have no skills is just narrow-minded nonesense and will only serve the purpose of giving xc riders a bad name.
Good point Dango - we are all wibbling webmongs after all!
lcj - who told you that? Did you volunteer to Hurtwood or Redlands? If Hurtwood, then there's a pretty straightforward reason; we're swamped with volunteers. This was a problem in the past with Redlands, where we got 50 volunteers turning up on a dig day, with only eight committee bods to manage the build and maintenance. It was fairly disastrous.
With Hurtwood Volunteers, we took advice from Ian Warby at the CTC (The guy that built Aston Hill, basically) and one of his pieces of advice was to have build days invite-only, so that we didn't get swamped. So that's what we've done. With a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio of experienced builders to beginners, we can get people up to speed much quicker. Once they're experienced, we can then get them training up other people. This is the theory, and to date it works better than the 1:5 sort of ratio we used to have on days.
Drop me a line (my email's in the profile) and I'll see if we can get you on the list for one of the next days. Because it's been so dry, the only work done this summer has been on Parklife.
PS: Mikey - one of the best downhillers I know is also a keen roadie and XC rider. He's likely to be out on one of the shop xc rides tonight. He has some pretty scathing opinions of some of the shonky building. If it helps, I should add that I raced about three seasons of the Dragons back when Jason's uplifts involved two gravel lorries and a ladder. I was / am sh!t, but I still did a fair amount of falling off hillsides while dressed as a Stormtrooper. It was fun.
Jon, you can ride most of the FC courses any time subject to stuff like logging, although a lot of them don't have any facilities, private uplifts are a big no-no, and pushing up to the top is a mission. Afan, well, regardless of what you think of the Energy trail it's still worth a trip isn't it? And there's a proper DH course coming soon, apparently.
I think if people want to have their rad freeride cake and eat it, they should be following the model of the Woodland Riders in Tavistock, the Black Canon Collective at Longleat, or Jedi off here, where you lease the land, set up your own club, and build what you want to ride. Surprised this doesn't happen in more places, given the depth of feeling that this seems to evoke. And if you've got your shiny new mountain bike, another twenty or thirty quid on membership isn't that much, or is it?
FFS Mr agreeable: Will you get off your high horse for one minute. DH riding is just as valid an activity as your chosen discipline - get over it.
It's your condescending attitude in this thread that is probably responsible for most of the angry replies you get.
mikey74 - Member
FFS Mr agreeable: Will you get off your high horse for one minute. DH riding is just as valid an activity as your chosen discipline - get over it.
Not if it endangers other riders and puts the entire network of authorised, existing trails at risk it isn't.
As others have said, the Surrey Lumps are an area that is both populated, well used by all manner of people doing all manner of things and is also in large parts privately owned. Many people have worked [i]exceptionally[/i] hard over the years to create a great riding environment that really works. ****monkeys who build stupid cr@p illegaly risk ruining all those efforts.
Want your DH kick? Go ride a DH course. Want to ride lovely trails in a lovely part of the world, go to the Surrey Hills and soak up all the trail goodness.
DH is great. But is really needs suitable locations. Like DH tracks. Progression is a natural thing to want in your riding - but you don't have a [i]right[/i] to expect to be able to achieve that progression just anywhere.
Leith Hill and Hurtwood (by the way, that's Surrey Hills, not North Downs, which is somewhere else) are already used for stuff - they aren't wild areas just looking for a user.
DH riding is just as valid an activity as your chosen discipline - get over it.
What does that even mean? I know that pottering around the woods on my XC bike doesn't throw up anything like as many potential issues for a landowner as getting together with some mates and digging out a track with some gap jumps that someone could paralyse themselves on.
Spot on Mr_A.
I have no idea what "valid" means in this context.
mikey74 - Member
Are there? PORC is about 12-15 miles away. I do keep meaning to head over there but haven't got round to it. May have to check it out.
[url= http://www.ukdirt.com/porc/ ]http://www.ukdirt.com/porc/[/url]
maybe anyone who wants to build jumps/gaps that are unlikely to be trashed by a ranger should check porc out.
[i]
"It's been a busy time at PORC, and new tracks are starting to take shape. We have a new road-gap, and atleast 2 new DH sections, plus work has started on some new XC single track. If you want to help with track building, and the benefits that come with it, please call Rob on 01892 870136."[/i]
Porc is up for sale and the quotes you made Gary are years old
If you're young, skint, and without much transport, your local woods are always going to be far more appealing.
Well if you can afford a DH bike you can certainly afford a young person rail fare to a DH trail in wales or scotland.
See if the same young want to go skiing in summer you'll find acceptable they hire a snow machine and over flow the woods?
For what I have read so far you are giving the "anti-dh" brigade an awfull lot of stick to get beaten by...
PORC is still going, it's called Viceroys Wood now.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2009/aug/22/mountain-biking-trail-centres-uk
bent_udder
It was indeed Hurtwood, and I'm glad to hear you're swamped, thats good news. I think it was more the tone of the email that put me off - unfortunately I dont have it to hand. Anyway, it seems a shame that with so many volunteers the maintenance cant be more widespread. Is 1:1 / 1:2 really necessary? I'll bow to wisdom if it is, but it seems to me an ideal time strike to get as much done as possible if volunteer numbers are booming before people get put off, as I did?
Happy to talk further and help if I can. Will keep an eye on the Hurtwood site. Congrats on the work on Parklife, a vast improvement.
Cheers
LCJ - Yes you do need a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. It's ridiculously easy to trash a section of trail with one careless mattock swing, which can then end up in hours of work to put right, and end up completely changing the nature of said section. We've been there and done that many many times!
Sounds dire - but it is true!
But not all trail maintenance involves mattocks, surely? What about gathering material, clearing branches et c?
I'm only suggesting that people might start getting put off helping if offers are repeatedly turned down, although I do appreciate the ned to retain some level of control over what is done on dig days.
Re the OP, this is all really simple. It's about taking a mature attitude and trying to understand others' needs rather than our own perceived 'rights'or desires.
The land is owned but the owners and managers are generous enough to give us access. If we respect their requests, we get to enjoy some great riding. If we don't show ourselves capable of respecting other people's needs: the owners, managers, walkers, horseriders etc then we risk losing access and great riding.
This would also be a waste of all the hard work put in by Redlands, dig day volunteers and everyone else who has been involved in getting us to the delicate balance we enjoy today.... so PLEASE people, think of the bigger picture, we have a huge amount to lose if we can't show a sense of community
lcj, it's tons of work. If you can find a copy of IMBA's Trail Solutions, it should give you an idea. The opening three corners of the new Parklife section - that's before it even gets to the ridge, or about 70 yards of trail - took a total of more than a week's worth of full time digging and clearing to get right over a several-month period using upwards of 15 people per dig day. It's not just clearing a few branches by a long stretch. To get it to a point where it drains and rides well, and needs little ongoing maintenance, is a big old chunk of work. The difference between something thrown up in an afternoon using mulch and rotten logs and a sustainably built trail is massive. IMBA Trail Solutions is a reasonable guide - we don't use it as a bible, but it'll give you an idea of the work involved.
Well. Blimey. 87 posts!!
Went quite well, I thought. Opposing views, lots of info, some lively and amusing personal abuse and a chinese takeaway (just gone down)...
Thanks to bent for the knowledgeable, mature and soundly reasoned input (as ever) with which I completely agree (how could I not?).
Obviously controversial - how about ST mag sending their finest to do an investigative piece on the issue? I'd buy that for a dollar...
"Walk softly, but carry a big spoon". ;o)))))
I dont doubt any of what you say Mr Udder, or the time involved and the techniques required (although I do sometimes scratch my head as to how those flat bermed corners before the whoopy section on parklife ended up off camber) but I'm just saying that as you have the manpower, can something not be done to harness it?