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DQ is too harsh, given last place on the stage sure + a fine and maybe a points deduction but not thrown out of the Tour 🙁 As others have said Sagan was at fault, he swung sideways to get back on Demare's wheel with no regard for anyone that might be following (can in this case). I don't think he saw Cav there as he did it but he should have known someone would be on Demare's wheel.
The elbow thing was more just resulting from the collision, especially when his elbow seems to flick out further as Cav is going down, that's because Sagan's arm is pushed forward slightly not (which it initially looks like) because Sagan decides to put the nail in the coffin and shunt him further into the barriers.
As for stopping this sort of stuff, it's tricky if not impossible to do. Bunch sprinting is always going to be a contact sport of sorts and sprinters are always going to be on the edge of control in the last 100m. That's partly what makes it so exciting to watch. But elbowing people off wheels, deliberately moving across to chop someone and interrupt their sprint needs to be clamped down on (this didn't happen in the Sagan/Cav thing) but trying to prove intent is always going to be a challenge. I also think lead out riders peeling off in the last 200m and just sitting up/slowing right down has to be looked at, that's often what triggers a lot of the wild movements at the end these days.
I thought Sagan caused it but the elbow wasn't deliberate / as it looked. Relegation and points seemed fair, DQ harsh but i don't know what the commissaires had warned either him or them all before the race started, and sometimes you have to bare your teeth to make an example.
sprinting getting to be the most dangerous part of the tour, perhaps they need to clamp down a little and rules were apparently laid out early so they all need to be more careful.
I've never been in a sprint finish so i don't know at all what it's like but it looks terrifying. And on that point, yes, they're all going for the win but they are all also professionals with a duty of care to another pro - whether deliberate or not it's ****ed up another pro's livelihood for the next 6 weeks and could have been far worse (yeah yeah, whatiffery). Hate to introduce football or rugby to this, but we've seen in both those sports law changes to take into account that sport can be rough and accidents happen but there is a duty of care to a fellow professional that outweighs even the desire to win.
Sagan saw Demare's wheel without seeing Cav and in a split second went for it, but then once he realised he was cutting Cav's line off into the barriers he had the option to lose the wheel and go back left again. The overheads show he had plenty of space. I know others will say 'pah, that's not how it happens' but is that what has to happen and if you can't react to those situations then you deserve the penalty. Otherwise these things will continue to happen and we'll be denied the privilege of watching the best sprinters contest fair sprints.
Alternatively, all sprints to be contested on super wide highways with a sprinter's line 150cm in from the barriers each side - cut that and you get relegated automatically. Still wouldn't stop the middle of the road pile up but it was hitting the barrier and that foam pad that brought Cav to such a halt that really made my arse knit buttons yesterday.
Greipel thinks Sagan caused the earlier crash and the overhead looks suspicious!
Sprinters change "lane" often but are not punished so you have to assume Sagan is either a) being punished for the consequences of what happened or b) because of previous misdemeanors.
DQ fair enough in my opinion.
I am not a pro sprinter, but
F1 ca design barriers that can be hit considerably harder than cyclists hit TdF barriers (yes I'd spotted cyclists aren't in a safety cell). Catch nets in skiing do fairly well too. Is steel really the best choice of material? Do barriers that have sticking out bits (albeit foam) seem sensible? You can't change the properties of tarmac much but barriers faced in continuous smooth climbing crash mat type material (preferably with a slippy finish on that) can't be beyond the pockets of the Tour - no?
Have a rule about the lines to be taken. Lead out in the left half of the road and all slowing riders to either hold line or pull left. Sprinters to pass members of there own team on the right (either side when they are passing another sprinter). That way the sprinters should at least have some idea where the movement will be and will go. And yes I understand the commissaries will have to make a call on who is contesting a sprint and who is leading out - but the riders will know.
Thoughts? Practical?
"Sagan is either a) being punished for the consequences of what happened or b) because of previous misdemeanors."
or C) for wear goggles at the end of Mondays stage.
Its a fine line between controlled aggression and being a dick. most sprinters cross it at some point. Looks like PS crossed it twice yesterday, and put a lot of riders on the deck.
They have DQ'd others for less.
Have we heard if he was responsible for the 2 FDJ riders going down and whether part of the punishment was for that ? Or was it just for the Cav incident ?
Have we heard if he was responsible for the 2 FDJ riders going down and whether part of the punishment was for that ? Or was it just for the Cav incident ?
I'm sure I heard the official line was that it was for a number of incidents, not just the final sprint.
“The jury decided to disqualify Peter Sagan because of the very serious manoeuvre in the sprint. I didn’t know anything about the first crash [at 1.5km out], it’s only about this crash,” UCI Jury president Philippe Marien said.
Very difficult one.
At first it felt a bit lenient, then a bit harsh.
Glad I didn't have to make the decision.
Boardman said he was judged on the consequences rather than the intent, but I suspect it may have been vice versa, with that elbow being the nail in his coffin.
with that elbow being the nail in his coffin.
The elbow which seems to come out after Cav is on the way down?
I'm disappointed for both of them and me as a spectator. I do think something other than the new 3 second rule is needed though. Sprinting is always going to involve a lot of pushing and shoving, it's in the nature of the game. But 60kph hard up against the barriers will sometimes end in tears and will ruin someone's season - which is stupid. It's in the Teams' interest to keep their men safe so they can continue to race so I think they should be lobbying the UCI hard to come up with something practical.
The elbow which seems to come out after Cav is on the way down?
Yes, that's exactly my point about intent vs consequences.
Well it certainly lit up a boring sprint stage, but don't forget Cav in 2013 doing something similar to Weelans then getting all stroppy with the media for asking the very same questions.. and Renshaws repeated head butting.. and.. and.. it's the nature of sprinting and despite the UCI's attempts at sanitation and "no deviation" rules which don't work, sprinting is sprinting and it's dangerous and that's why some like it. I'm not a fan of sprinting, I think they're dull and should be limited to open airfields in remote locations in rural France, with a 2k wide runway and no barriers, a 1k sprint from standstill to a finish line... and not in Towns or Villages where too much road furniture, roundabouts, barriers with stick out feet, trees or a gap of less than a car width. They often destroy other riders Tour or stages, and crashes are devastating for any team and more importantly any rider.
Thinking about it, it seems pretty fair, he caused a crash that ended another competitors tour, so his tour ends to.
Commissars really should reconsider. Seems pretty much everyone (commentators and riders, even Greipel now he's looked at the footage) thinks the decision to DQ from the race and not just the stage is far too harsh.
Two ways to improve safety. Reduce the probability of a crash, or reduce the impact of the crash.
They need to look at both.
The thing is, hitting the floor at 60+kmph is always going to hurt, and will sometimes result in something broken or badly torn. Not a great deal you can do about that short of slowing them all down or forcing them to wear airbags.
Perhaps there needs to be some sort of "neutral zone" to the sides where sprinting isn't allowed, but at least might have given Cav an escape route. e.g. blue lines painted 1m from the barrier on both sides - allowed to cycle in it, but not race (e.g. no more than 2 pedal strokes etc)
Missed the stage yesterday, but caught some highlights this morning after seeing the news of Sagan DQ.
Seems a bit harsh to me, DQ'd from stage and -1000 green jersey points would have been adequate.
Thought DQ was a bit harsh. Sagan is a classy rider, and I'm sure it was an unintentional reflex as he grabbed wheel. His apology to cav will have been genuine.
Sprinting is a contact sport and I've seen as bad in many Cat 4 races. It's one reason why I'm always in that second wave! Width of the road and barriers are irrelevant. Sprinters have tunnel vision when the line is coming.
Watched it a number of times now and i've only done track sprinting, it is a physical sport and there is contact.
I think it was harsh on Sagan, he didn't "swerve" at Cav, all the sprinters were naturally drifting right mainly due to Demar cutting up Bouhani. As they have all drifted right the gap between Sagan and barrier naturally closed and wasn't really wide enough for Cav.
I think whilst it was aggressive, i think Sagan was protecting his handlebars, someone comes up the inside of you and is going to take both of you out, then you are doping everything to stay upright, making yourself wider than your bars means that your bars aren't being clipped at 45mph which is what would happen.
I think Demar and Sagan should of got the same original penanlty, only Demar actually deviated quickly from his line.
Pity as it was a class bit of sprinting by Cav, his own lead out train went too early with 1km to go and Cav knew he couldn't sustain that longer lead out, so he actually let his own lead out train disappear ahead and used Demar as a lead out instead.
doping everything to stay upright
Freudian 😉
Commissars really should reconsider
It's a bit late now..................
Pity as it was a class bit of sprinting by Cav, his own lead out train went too early with 1km to go and Cav knew he couldn't sustain that longer lead out, so he actually let his own lead out train disappear ahead and used Demar as a lead out instead.
Agree - I think sat on Demare's wheel he was as close to nailed on for the win as you can be in a sprint.
It's interesting to watch the replay and focus on Demare. He weaves all over from the middle to far (rider's) right and all the way back left as he crosses the line. He doesn't look over his shoulder as he does so.
With that in mind, it does seem like perhaps they are punishing consequences, whilst Demare does the same sort of manoeuvre and is awarded the stage win.
Boardman said he was judged on the consequences rather than the intent, but I suspect it may have been vice versa, with that elbow being the nail in his coffin.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In football, if I mistime a well-intentioned tackle and break my opponent's leg, I'm going to be punished. ITV were reporting that the sprinters had told to clean up their act, so I suppose the DQ isn't too surprising in that context. While the elbow probably wasn't as bad as it looked, Sagan did veer across while Cav was holding his line.
Commissars really should reconsider
It's a bit late now..................
I know, it won't happen but I'm still half expecting to see Sagan re-instated.
Some opinion...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cooke-for-sagan-to-be-kicked-out-in-disgrace-is-not-on/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-riders-past-and-present-shocked-by-peter-sagans-disqualification/
he was judged on the consequences rather than the intent,
I suspect he was also partly judged on who he is. If the commissars had seemed lenient they could have been accused of acting in the interests of ASO and UCI, I'd not be surprised if this was in their minds when the decision was made.
This is a good sequence of images...
[img] 
[/img]
.. by the time the elbow went out Cav was on his way down. Can't say with certainty that the elbow didn't get pushed out by Cav leaning on Sagan. Stupid decision to DQ from race.
I agree, DQ is harsh and incorrect response IMO. Cav went for a gap that closed. The elbow stuff is a by-product, not the cause.
Demare is all over the place too, in terms of his line. Yet he got away with it.
Perhaps there needs to be some sort of "neutral zone" to the sides where sprinting isn't allowed, but at least might have given Cav an escape route. e.g. blue lines painted 1m from the barrier on both sides - allowed to cycle in it, but not race (e.g. no more than 2 pedal strokes etc)
But then you end up with an even narrower sprinters lane.
The problem is that there is no one dominant team - there are 6 or so teams in with a fair crack of a win plus the various GC riders trying to stay up there to "keep out of trouble" - ironically enough then causing congestion, getting in the way and increasing the chance of a pile up.
The sprints seem to have been getting messier for a few years now and the consequences much worse. This is far from the first time Cav has gone down like that - he does seem to be disproportionately involved in incidents.
This is far from the first time Cav has gone down like that - he does seem to be disproportionately involved in incidents.
I thought the same when Anthony Watson used his face to hit Sonny Bill Williamson.
IMO it's the right decision, what everyone forgets is that it wasn't only Cav that went down, and in a big bunch sprint it could have been far, far worse. We are seeing it more in sport now that there has to be a duty of care to your other competitors and Sagan would have known he was likely to put someone into the barriers, by cutting hard right to shut the door.
I think it is good that the UCI are stepping up and not afraid to punish 'big' names. No one wants to see riders hurt on a regular basis, so stamping down on dodgy sprinting is the right ting to do. The key thing now is that they are consistent for the rest of the Tour.
Perhaps there needs to be some sort of "neutral zone" to the sides where sprinting isn't allowed, but at least might have given Cav an escape route. e.g. blue lines painted 1m from the barrier on both sides - allowed to cycle in it, but not race (e.g. no more than 2 pedal strokes etc)But then you end up with an even narrower sprinters lane.
I said similar on the previous page. It would mean sprints need to be finished on super wide highways and might mean an end to finishes right outside the Mayor's office, but is that a price worth paying to keep people safer?
have you seen the line Demare took dragon?
what do you think of that, given the rules on not deviating?
They're clearly trying to modify rider behaviour first.
I think it'd be a big shame if all sprints were on motorway-width roads - it's nice to have a bit of nuance and variety to keep it interesting.
also rubbish, but he's dodged sanction probably because of what went on with sagan / cav.
Not that you are saying it, but 'it's what they all do' or 'Cav's hardly been blameless in the past' are not suitable responses. Does someone need to be killed / paralysed by hitting a barrier at 65kph before it becomes an issue?
think it'd be a big shame if all sprints were on motorway-width roads
it was, but riders follow wheels, and they went left to right in the last 300 metres, you can make the road a mile wide but the sprint will still be bunched
Demare didn't stick anyone in the barriers. Although I do agree they should be trying to reduce excessive line changes.
[quote=reggiegasket ]I agree, DQ is harsh and incorrect response IMO. Cav went for a gap that closed. The elbow stuff is a by-product, not the cause.
Demare is all over the place too, in terms of his line. Yet he got away with it.
I'm undecided on whether DQ is correct reponse - though I'm fairly sure that whatever the jury might say it isn't based upon a single incident, it wasn't just the earlier crash near the finish where Sagan was accused of riding dangerously, and the jury had made a point that they were going to take a hard line on such riding.
Cav didn't "go for" the gap - he was already in that bit of the road when Sagan moved over into him - when he "went for" the gap it was big enough to fit about 5 riders in. Meanwhile it's not just about consequences that Demare didn't get punished - he might have ridden side to side on the road which is what he had to do in order to find the gaps to reach the front (other riders to his left were also moving right), but he didn't even get close to riding into somebody else. Whether that's luck or judgement who knows, but riding into somebody else isn't consequences - if Demare had leaned on somebody then you might have a point, but he didn't, which is why he "got away with it".
I think it was harsh on Sagan, he didn't "swerve" at Cav, all the sprinters were naturally drifting right mainly due to Demar cutting up Bouhani. As they have all drifted right the gap between Sagan and barrier naturally closed and wasn't really wide enough for Cav.
yep it was a deliberate and controlled squeezing of another rider into the barrier, the elbow was the "and stay down".
bbc reporting Sagan has departed the tour, no appeal allowed.
yep it was a deliberate and controlled squeezing of another rider into the barrier, the elbow was the "and stay down".
I don't think so, they are all drifting to the right, to drift is allowed, you can't purposely swerve and "close the door", the move to the right comes from Demare's actions? With regards to the elbow, i think Cav was already on way down and him sticking elbow out was steadying himself and keeping him at arms length and stopping Cav taking Sagan's handlebars down and them both falling, Sagan was aggressive yes but no more than the usual argie-bargie of the sprint and fighting to stay upright?
I don't think so, they are all drifting to the right
^^^ in the sequence above the only rider going right is Sagan
^^^ in the sequence above the only rider going right is Sagan
That's how I see it also.
I don't think so, they are all drifting to the right
When I watched it, it looked like Cav was holding his line and Sagan moved across, squeezing him.
^^^ in the sequence above the only rider going right is Sagan
I think it looks more that way partly because prior to that Cav was leaning heavily on him to try and get a gap, and partly because Demare is going left to get onto Kristoffs wheel.
[quote=scud ]I don't think so, they are all drifting to the right, to drift is allowed, you can't purposely swerve and "close the door", the move to the right comes from Demare's actions?
I suggest you watch again - Demare's move to the right comes whilst he is overtaking Sagan and Cav is on his wheel. If anything Demare is moving back to the left when Sagan puts Cav in the barriers - you can't blame Demare at all for Sagan's decision to try and get on his wheel when Cav was already there.
Sagan was aggressive yes but no more than the usual argie-bargie of the sprint and fighting to stay upright?
The usual argie bargie of the sprint doesn't involve putting people in the barriers and giving them no option but to hit the deck. Of course there are plenty of crashes, but most of them aren't so clearly caused by the irresponsible actions of one rider - and when they are that rider is normally penalised in some way (I'm not saying the DQ is right, but some punishment is certainly required).
[quote=mrblobby ]I think it looks more that way partly because prior to that Cav was leaning heavily on him to try and get a gap
😯 I reckon you also need to watch again - the only reason Cav ever leans on Sagan is to try and stay upright when Sagan hits him, and as mentioned above Cav was on Demare's wheel going through quite a big gap before Sagan moves across hard.