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As much as I admire Sagan - I do get the impression he's a little bit of a loose cannon in the peleton.
Mind you, same could be said of Cav!
Specially sad as it was great to see Cav up there 🙁
The overhead angle didn't look good, from one of the other angles though Sagan's body looked to be leaning away from Cavendish as though he tried to jump on the same wheel before seeing him late & protecting himself by sticking his elbow out - either way Sagan's at fault for the crash, really messy sprint - at one point Greipel nearly lost his back wheel & people were weaving across each other all the way in.
Entertaining mind...
mrblobby
He looked to intentionally position his elbow to stop someone trying to push through the gap, but not to intentionally to shove someone into the barriers.
It's a fine line between the two with half a dozen riders going balls out at 40mph shoulder to shoulder, that's probably the best official explanation Sagan could hope for! 😆
It seems unlikely that Sagan would deliberately try to send Cav into the barriers, but either way, that's dangerous riding.
Anyway, he's been relegated.
I don't think he was intending to put anyone in the barriers, more close the gap with his elbow to stop anyone potentially overtaking, unfortunatley Cav arrived in the gap at the exact same time...
“I get on with Peter well but I don’t get it... if he came across it’s one thing, but the elbow... I’m not a fan of him putting his elbow in like that. I get on with Peter, a crash is a crash, but I’d just like to know about the elbow,” Cavendish said.
By all accounts Griepel isn't happy with Sagan either..
Le Tour website results now showing Sagan not in 2nd place.
There's some vid replays in this [url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/2017/7/4/15919174/tour-de-france-crash-mark-cavendish ]Link[/url]
Big Sagan fan myself, but that was very poor. I've looked at it over and over and all I can see is a deliberate elbow. He's very much gone down in my estimation 🙁
Sagan is now listed as 15th on GC, 43 seconds down, falling 11 places.
Sagan relegated to 115 & a 30sec time penalty.
Horrible crash, hard to see that as anything other than deliberate though.
Very poor show from the world champ
lucky his name is Sagan and not Moreno.
Looks deliberate from the overhead camera, even closing the gap looks a bit iffy, probably on the right side of of a racing incident but at the point that Cav goes for the gap it's easily large enough to get through safely. The elbow is something else.
https://twitter.com/diarioenlanube/status/882268277866729472/video/1
Doesn't look deliberate from this view. It looks like Cavendish was already riding into him and crashing before the elbow even came out. If you stop it 3/4 seconds it looks like Cav caused it & Sagan reacted.
"Lotto-Soudal team manager Marc Sergeant speaks: The Belgian head of German sprinter Andre Greipel’s team doesn’t mince his words on the subject of Sagan’s antics either. He says Greipel was “pissed” at Sagan’s behaviour in yesterday’s intermediate sprint and was “pissed” again today at the way Sagan was veering all over the road in the closing stages of today’s sprint. Sergeant claimed not to have seen today’s closing stages very well yet, but pointedly says with a shake of his head “that’s twice in two days from Sagan”. Furthermore, he announces that Greipel, by all accounts one of the nicest blokes in the peloton, has told him that from this day on, he will no longer be friends with Peter Sagan."
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/04/mark-cavendish-crash-tour-de-france-stage-four ]Graun[/url]
Anyway...
Just hope Cav is ok...
Sagan dq'd according to cycling news
Sagan dq, blimey.
Goodness, quite a calm day, then it all kicks off at the end.
Come on Edvald 🙂
Bloody hell so he has.....
Thoughts on Cav now..
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/04/mark-cavendish-crash-tour-de-france-stage-four ]Graun[/url]
Wow.
So... Errr.... What happens to the sagan points in the virtual tdf competition... Ahem
says it all really, had to go
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well they had to get someone else in green some how,
ays it all really, had to go
As a total unbiased neutral, that snapshot looks bad - but the subsequent video's really show Cav caused it. He was going down long before the elbow even came out.
says it all really, had to go
I don't think it does, they were leaning on each other for a while before the elbow went out. Look at where Cav's wheels are and where he'd be if he was upright, consider he was coming up from behind Sagan and they were both going for Demare's wheel which is to their left. Elbows are pretty commonplace to make a bit of room or defend your position, just a bit unlucky that Cav was where he was and the barriers so close.
Harsh decision to DQ. It's as if they have gone too far in an attempt not to appear to be making allowances.
However, Roger Hammond, the sporting director of Cavendish's Team Dimension Data, tweeted an overhead view of the incident with the words: "Causes a big crash at 1.5 to go, elbows fellow competitor in the head 300 meters... can only result in one decision. #Goodbye"
Hammond suggesting the previous crash caused by Sagan too.
As a total unbiased neutral, that snapshot looks bad - but the subsequent video's really show Cav caused it. He was going down long before the elbow even came out.
elbowed him on the way down so that's ok then 🙄
The slow mo on that link is quite telling.
From the start, Cav is right behind Demare and almost parallel with Sagan. Cav stays excatly on his line following Demare.
Sagan moves right across the road, boxing Cav (deliberately or not) against the railings.
Cav leans to his left (and moves his bike to the left)to avoid the fans arms over the barricades.
Sagan at this point is being leaned on.
Sagan seems to lean back against the leaning Cav with his arm (counterforce to avoid being pushed away).
Cav is already compromised, his bike is leant away from Sagan as Sagan applies force with his arm (for balance?).
Cav starts to fall away which allows Sagan's arm (which was already pushing to appear to come out further.
Cav has nothing to lean against and no way to right the impeding fall and he goes down.
It doesn't look like pure malice to me, more a racing incident with a nasty outcome.
Sagan dq'd
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I don't think Cav was going down - you look at the vid around 0.55 & Cav is upright until Sagan flicks his elbow. Cav is either taking evasive or there'scontact. Either way he's upright until the flick.
Looks pretty cut & dried IMHO:
The podium girls will be happy.
To me, cavendish had demares wheel, Sagan came sideways into cav, flicked his elbow once to move cav towards barriers and then shoulder and second elbow to push him into barriers.
Haves looked at at about 10 different vids now I'd still say there was a deliberate elbow by Sagan.
It seems to me that Cavendish gets the jump on the same gap and is slightly ahead of Sagan as they go for the same space. Cavendish is travelling in a straight line. Sagan veers across into the same space and leads with his elbow.
Pretty straightforward really. There's always a bit of barging but if you cut someone up and lead with your elbow what are the race officials supposed to do?
Makes the green jersey interesting now!
Normally in a sprint involving Nacer Bouhanni, it's him that causes all the inevitable pile ups.
Surprised to see Sagan behaving that badly (intentionally or not). Looks like Sagan was at least partially involved in the first crash as well.
Waiting for ITV4 highlights at 7.
Look at the slo-mo above:
At 3 seconds, Cav is leaning on Sagan trying to avoid the fans. if you look at the scenes between 3 and 4 seconds, Sagan's elbows (left and right) are the same on the bike. At 4 seconds, they're shoulder to shoulder, but Cav, being smaller, his bars are inside and below Sagan's, he's also underneath Sagan's right arm, he's not been pushed by it at this point...blocked maybe. at late 4 seconds you can see their bars hit/lock with Sagan's forearm is actually touching the top of Cav's bars when it all startes to happen.
It's either Sagan has thrown an elbow and knocked him off, or Sagan's arm was pulled, knocked out of position by the falling/pulling of Cav's bike. Looking at it, I'd say the the hoods of Cav's left STI caught on the underside of Sagan's arm and as Cav started to fall, Sagan lifted his arm as the shifter started to pull at it. Cav is behind Sagan at the point at which the real elbow throwing occurs.
If I HAD been Bouhanni, nobody would be debating; they'd be pretty content he'd done wrong. As it's Sagan people are keener to believe in him.
Without the elbow, Cav would still be in the barriers (IMO), and would we be talking about his error in judgement in going for a rapidly closing gap? He was still well behind PS at first contact, and Sagan was still heading rightwards.
I wonder if Cav's lack of form means he is even more desperate than normal to take any opportunity, perhaps he might have sat up and had a good moan about Sagan's line change on another day.
Does look like Sagan (like Cav), is trying to get on Demare's wheel, and may not have been aware he was coming up so quick.
I'm not sure that it merits a DQ, although I can understand why he got one.
watching in slo mo there's a moment when Cavo's take a clear knock to the jaw fro Sagan's shoulder but it's all probably already going wrong by that point.
Domar also cut up bouhanni quite badly, causing him to have to brake (he said as much on french telly - wasn't happy). he was lucky not to crash too.
Nasty, very nasty end that.
I wonder if Cav's lack of form means he is even more desperate than normal to take any opportunity, perhaps he might have sat up and had a good moan about Sagan's line change on another day.
Indeed.
no break for Cav, though he's going to be bloody sore in the morning 😯
Without the elbow, Cav would still be in the barriers (IMO),
I'm not so sure, it looked like Cav was only on the barriers because Sagan had come so far across.
I'm not sure that it merits a DQ, although I can understand why he got one.
My point of reference for this is was it on a par with Renshaw's head butt from a few years ago and I reckon it is so he's got to go.
no break for Cav, though he's going to be bloody sore in the morning
That's good news, hope he's able to continue in a competitive manner.
i think he didn't spcially do it on purpose. and the elbow was after the damage was done. it just looked from the front like the culprit but was only an after-'thought'.
it's such a competitive agressive situation that they just react without real malice in their intentions.
i'm sure he sensed, whether aware or not, that Cavo was coming up fast and his reaction was just 'No, i'm having that' and just instintually tried to block the space and get demare's wheel.