[Closed] Toe curling 650b marketing guff.

I wonder if in the future they'll start ****** about with road bikes.

Was he on a bonus for every time he said new.

I wonder if in the future they'll start ****** about with road bikes.

I think it depends how disc brakes go. If they realise they can sell loads of road bikes that aren't UCI compliant then I think the metaphorical gloves will come off and they'll start doing 30 inch wheels that roll over potholes better or stems that exit middle of the head tube for that "so slammed your brakes interfere with your bars" feel.

I wanted the Trance next year but not sure if I can get myself to buy one now.. I'm embarrassed to be owning a 650b at the moment.

So which bike manufactures still say 26 wheels are fine? I find it a bit strange that Orange moved the Five to 27.5 as I might have thought that Orange would have a loyal following and did not need to be up with the latest fashion. I am quite happy to believe that different wheel sizes have their strengths and weaknesses and have a 29er that is dead fast and fun but I also like my 26er as it is ace to chuck around, easier to manual, jump and pump so why I would want something in the middle I am not really sure.

If you do not like jumping and messing about so much then get a 29er. Funny nobody says a 27.5 wheel is the worst of both worlds.

Argh. Lovely CX bike, but I want to shove it up his arse.

He even says 'Thanks Ben' annoyingly.

I am surprised Ben didn't shove that proprietary shaped seatpost up his bottom.

Anyways...

What, you don't have a fast seat post.
Although I have swoped mine over to mud post for the winter obviously.
It's a bit more draggy but it's worth it for the traction.

Where does this leave Niner are they going to have to rebrand?

Seven Point Fiver or Seven Hundreder doesn't sound half as snappy 🙂

Giant guy "the future of off road technology" FFS 🙄

What, you don't have a fast seat post.
Although I have swoped mine over to mud post for the winter obviously.
It's a bit more draggy but it's worth it for the traction.

Amateur.

Surely you're going to swap it [b]out[/b]. Possibly for something with a different colourway... 😉

I just watched the Giant guy again and he says:

"The best thing to do is a consumer is to test ride the three wheel sizes themselves and determine which one is the right one for them"

Right. So I do that and decide that 26" is the best for me but the industry is going to decide that increasingly I won't be able to exercise that choice.

I don't doubt that 650b might well end up as the predominant choice in years to come and if that's all there is about I will probably buy one if I do decide to buy a new bike.

What pisses me off is their assertion that they have run all the numbers and 650b is actually superior. His statement about the push for 29ers just doesn't fill me with any confidence that they do any real R&D and come up with the "ideal" size. If that were the case then maybe, just maybe 27.5" might be that number rather than 650b which isn't half way between 26" and 29".

I find it a bit strange that Orange moved the Five to 27.5 as I might have thought that Orange would have a loyal following and did not need to be up with the latest fashion.

No but if people want to buy a new set of wheels, they're not going to be able to buy a top end set of 26" (not brand new anyway) so the manufacturer has to real option but to go with what the market dictates. That way when the customer comes to upgrade their forks, wheels etc, they fit the frame.

I am surprised Ben didn't shove that proprietary shaped seatpost up his bottom

I can't stand proprietary kit. Did Mountain Mayhem a few years ago, 3 of us in the team were on Specialized, one guy on a Cannondale. Seeing as Mr Cannondale was "laid back" about his bike maintenance, his bike naturally failed every bloody lap. Nothing else fitted - we had spare parts and spare wheels which all fitted our Specializeds. He had a bloody Lefty, 3-bolt rotors, that god-awful CODA kit. None of our spares worked on his bike.

for a given design, 650b is guaranteed to use more material, be heavier and flexier than 26... dudes be tripping, they're selling us guff and smiling about it.

29 has its place and it makes far more sense to continue with 26 and 29 in parallel than squeeze in another size just for the sake of sales driven obseletion of existing standards.

We the people can change this madness and prevent the environmental fallout of all this excess material; don't buy em... once sales figures show demand is distinctly dropping off and folk aren't suckers for greedy bullshitters, their smug manipulations will fall flat.

We the people can change this madness and prevent the environmental fallout of all this excess material; don't buy em... once sales figures show demand is distinctly dropping off and folk aren't suckers for greedy bullshitters, their smug manipulations will fall flat.

Sales are falling and have been for a while.... Hasn't stopped them so far!

From my point of view, I STILL haven't heard a convincing argument as to why 29" or 27,5" is better than 26".

Yes, I understand the theory - bigger wheels roll faster; they take more effort to accelerate but maintain momentum for longer; they're slower to steer because of the greater gyroscopic forces generated. But that's two positives and two negatives as far as I can see - which [b]in theory[/b] cancel each other out.

Mountain bikes in the UK have had 26" wheels for nearly 25 years. They've worked fine in that period. Why change what isn't broken, unless it's because you're running out of original ideas and (no pun intended) you have to reinvent the wheel to give your flagging sales a boost?

I'm neither for nor against 29" or 27,5" over 26"; but until someone comes up with a cogent argument as to why I should change and not some marketing bullshit that has no scientific basis whatsoever, I'm sticking with 26".

[i]Sales are falling and have been for a while[/i]

They obviously think this is the answer!

My guess is that "twentysevenfive" is so similar to and indistinguishable from 26 that when people test ride one it feels familiar and good. So "650bee" is the one they go for.
So it's the future!

So it's the future!

My MTB is so obsolete it's actually quite funny now.

26" wheels (held on by things called "quick release")
ISIS BB/cranks
Dual Control (flappy paddle) shifters
9 speed
triple chainset
25.4mm bars

I can't walk into a shop and buy anything for it cos either nothing fits or if it does fit, it's not compatible with anything else!

The seatpost is also a bit of a weird size - 26.8mm IIRC.

double locks 26" full sus and single speed,
pats them and smiles, you'll be worth a fortune in a few years my pretties

I'm so confused!
Is it "Twentysevenfive"? "twentysevenpointfive"? "twentyseveandahalf"? or "sixfiftybee"?
I always thought "twentyniner" now I'm hearing "twoniner"!

Seeing as it's exactly 25mm (i.e. ~1 inch) bigger than 26 it must be simply 27.

double locks 26" full sus and single speed,
pats them and smiles, you'll be worth a fortune in a few years my pretties

Yep scrap metal is worth a fortune, that's why there's so many bike thefts

I'm so confused!
Is it "Twentysevenfive"? "twentysevenpointfive"? "twentyseveandahalf"? or "sixfiftybee"?
I always thought "twentyniner" now I'm hearing "twoniner"!

He also calls it 'twosevenfive' at one point in the other video.

Will a new Giant seatpost really bring my arse to life? That would be worth some cash.

[img] [/img]

Sales are falling and have been for a while.... Hasn't stopped them so far!

I reckon this has hit the nail on the head. Don't forget that ten years ago, full suss bikes were only just getting platform damping and disc brakes, features that were revolutionary. Since then bikes have had minor geometry changes, are a wee bit stiffer and possibly a few grammes lighter, but there's nothing game changing.

Seeing a new Fox fork every year which promises marginally better performance for a pro rider but at a £50 premium over the previous year's model is getting extremely wearing. As we've said before, the myriad models and axle standards are doing naff all to lower production costs!

I have three bikes, two full sussers and a hardtail. None of them are ten speed, none of them have Fox forks, none of them are 29" (or 27.5") and none of them are made of carbon. But I love riding them. As it happens the only new bike I'm considering buying is in fact a 26"er.

I sincerely hope that the big brands' marketing people read these forums.

I sincerely hope that the big brands' marketing people read these forums.

I don't, have you seen the bikes that come up in "Show me your...." threads.

I'm all for options on different wheelsizes but there are too many biased views on both pro and con sides of the argument for it to be based on the opinions of forum users.

Also 26" hardtails aren't except from Marketing BS its just the Marketing BS YOU want.

Bikes have progressed loads since 29er came along, not trying one of the larger sizes based only on you not thinking the wheelsize for you is only going to limit yourself. There plenty of 29er/650b hardtails that are more fun to ride than some 26er hardtails. Choose a bike on ride not wheelsize.

The fact is, if you're shit and slow, you'll remain shit and slow regardless of the size of you're wheels. The End.

I was on the outdoor pumptrack at the Manchester Velodrome. Theres three step downs- the third being unrollable IMO- you have to wheelie off (or whatever you call it). Anyway I watched a 29'er approach it waaaaay too slow and I cringed. He rolled it.

For me, at that moment I thought thats a talent compensator too far.

Going back to the original mountain bikes- it made it HARD. We've had it easier and easier. I think part of the fun is it being 'just' on control/abit hard etc etc, when you can roll stuff easier etc I don't know.

All we have to do is not buy one.......

[i]Bikes have progressed loads since 29er came along[/i]

Is this those oblong wheels Jamie mentioned?

I was on the outdoor pumptrack at the Manchester Velodrome. Theres three step downs- the third being unrollable IMO- you have to wheelie off (or whatever you call it). Anyway I watched a 29'er approach it waaaaay too slow and I cringed. He rolled it.

For me, at that moment I thought thats a talent compensator too far.

didn't think they might be a better rider than you?

didn't think they might be a better rider than you?

Better than Hora? Wash your filthy mouth out.

None of this matters.

didn't think they might be a better rider than you?

Real men come last you know.

..Maybe but I wouldn't have attempted to roll it.

Toe curling 650b marketing guff.

I was camped by the BMX track near Vallnord when the WC was there, loads of the XC riders would drop by for some laps. It was pretty shocking how ungainly the bikes were, even in the hands of "pro/good" riders. I think I only saw one guy that managed to look good with his big wheels.

It was pretty amusing to see them getting schooled by little kids on their cheap bmxs.

All we have to do is not buy one.......

What I WOULD like to see Giant do is design and build beautiful bikes, bikes that I would like to buy. My XT890F(?) was my last Giant back in 2001. They make some bloody **** ugly bikes don't they? I know their old 26'ers are supposed to ride good etc but boy they look cheap/nasty.

[i]All their inane wittering just translated in my head to "we've found a way to make all previous bikes obsolete and hopefully sell a shitload more"[/i]

That's what it means in [i]their[/i] heads!
In mine it translates to "blah blah new bullshit new blah blah new blah new bullshit..."etc 🙂

[i]They make some bloody **** ugly bikes don't they?[/i]

Ooh, he's got a point, you know

[img] [/img]

I was on the outdoor pumptrack at the Manchester Velodrome. Theres three step downs- the third being unrollable IMO- you have to wheelie off (or whatever you call it). Anyway I watched a 29'er approach it waaaaay too slow and I cringed. He rolled it.

For me, at that moment I thought thats a talent compensator too far.

FFS Hora, there were kids on CX bikes rolling that lot when the Rapha SuperCross was on at Philips Park last weekend. Even a few of the adults had a roll round it, there was one guy on a Kinesis CX bike getting some pretty good air. The track is doable on everything from BMX to hybrids!

It was pretty amusing to see them getting schooled by little kids on their cheap bmxs.

In their deffence:

*The pros probably spend as much time on the road bikes as the kids do at the BMX track
*Everyone looks ungainly at a BMX track on an MTB regardles of wheel size, but it is even worse on bigger wheels, the wheels are big relative to the transitions which makes the arc the axle/bike describes much tighter than the smaller wheels, and the longer wheelbases makes taking off/landing on shorter transitions more difficult.
*The pro's would prbably 'school' them on BMX's

Nothing but 26 inch wheels in my garage and hopefully it will remain so for a very long time. I just can't see the point of it all, who are all these ordinary punters who DEMAND!!! the highest performance bike no matter what? I like riding bikes for fun, the slower I can go and still have a laugh the better.

But at the end of the day there is so little difference between 26" and 650b that it hardly matters, when and if my current bikes expire I may get one but not just becuase it is 650b.

As for 29'ers - no way, I really think they will become a bit niche.

The woman from trek, who was talking sense, has a obvious pause. As she goes through the travel size wheel size in her head. the good lady has to stop herself 26" is best for flicking around. Definate look of conflict on her face!

[i]But at the end of the day there is so little difference between 26" and 650b that it hardly matters, when and if my current bikes expire I may get one but not just becuase it is 650b.[/i]

Someone (ie. me) might've said that already.

hora - Member

unrollable IMO <snip> He rolled it.

I would be revising that opinion I think 🙂

*Everyone looks ungainly at a BMX track on an MTB regardles of wheel size

*The pro's would prbably 'school' them on BMX's

* Honorable exception goes to Jose Ulloa (mexican junior) who was rad, even on a 29er.

My MTB is so obsolete it's actually quite funny now.

26" wheels (held on by things called "quick release")
ISIS BB/cranks
Dual Control (flappy paddle) shifters
9 speed
triple chainset
25.4mm bars

Tick to that lot apart from the flappy paddles - but then I'd argue you were buying into a fad with those anyway. It seemed such an ultimate bike when I built it up 6 years ago.

Why does it seem to be such a shock that bike companies want to sell more bikes?
If you're not in the market for a new bike then what does it matter?

[img] [/img]

My Anger has now turned to sadness as, watching the video again you have to understand that 650b has'nt come from the marketing department at all.....Its actually come from the accounts department.

There is no way im riding a bike because an accountant tells me to

Oh and did you notice what the guy from Giant says at the beginning : ' We realised that 29 inch wheels wasnt right for all Markets and err riders '

says it all doesnt it? - its just about Markets, and im guessing he is referring to the Asian ones. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Maybe but I wouldn't have attempted to roll it.

If you'd had a twosevenfiver you could have smoothed out the trail enough to roll the drop, AND made the trail come alive.

Shame all this guff in my opinion is hurting the industry... I mean imagine trying a few shops to buy a bike and getting bamboozled by all the wheel size bobbins !!!

I decided to stick to what I have 26" and to hell with it 🙂 🙂

Why does it seem to be such a shock that bike companies want to sell more bikes?
If you're not in the market for a new bike then what does it matter?

[img] [/img]

Trek employee at 1.45 - 26" wheels are best for up to 140mm / 150mm travel bikes.

So that's most of them then..

It's simple really 29" for XC bikes, and 650b for more Enduro stuff, with 26" being binned. I think it's a good thing as ultimately everyone gets better mtb's as a result, and people also make money, it's a win all around.

Just opened this months ST. I've changed my mind the 27.5 marketing guff is actualy noxious.

I still want to try/buy one, as I think my 29er's have been so significantly better than the 26" bikes they replaced, so 650b might have advantages. But the marketing is wayyyyy OTT.

Want's list:

29" 150mm travel bike for 'enduro'
29" 120mm travel bike for 'trail'
(already got a hardtail, but somethign carbon and sily lightweright wouldn't go amiss)

Thankfully being 6ft and able to ride on properly sized bikes this whole debate is below me (litteraly).

It's simple really 29" for XC bikes, and 650b for more Enduro stuff, with 26" being binned. I think it's a good thing as ultimately everyone gets better mtb's as a result, and people also make money, it's a win all around.

define better please?

29 might be better for some XC courses some of the time, nothing is ever cut and dryed. 26 and 27.5 f* all difference.

Except the tyres/wheels/forks/frames etc i have are now obselete and spares will get harder to get quite quickly. Particularly if you want anything half decent.

Leku - Member
Trek employee at 1.45 - 26" wheels are best for up to 140mm / 150mm travel bikes.

So that's most of them then..

That's what I was struggling with trying to understand. I think she means that it's 29", not 26", for up to 140mm. 26" are gone. 27.5" for > 140mm.

But then she was going on about flickability. If you want that, then surely the smallest wheel is best? So who knows what she actually means.

Except the tyres/wheels/forks/frames etc i have are now obselete and spares will get harder to get quite quickly. Particularly if you want anything half decent.

Will they? Plenty of new 26" kit is still getting released. And most peoples arguments against change are "I already have everything and spares in 26".

😆 at hora and dezb. Why is captain Picard in the back of the car?

Imagining some posters walking into their LBS

"I want a really low BB and slack head angle because that will make it more stable, but I want really small wheels to make it less stable"

No doubt in an effort to remain just behind the curve in a few years they'll be demanding steep angles and 29" wheels (not that that's old hat, just the illustrative oppposite).

A slack head angle and low BB enable you to drift your bike around more and have more fun with your smaller wheels. 🙂

Will they? Plenty of new 26" kit is still getting released. And most peoples arguments against change are "I already have everything and spares in 26".

No, the issue is that most people have a fair selection but not many have a full set, so all you do have is scrap. I have spare wheels and tyres, but not forks for instance.

No, you heard it from the Giant bloke in the video 29 wasn't right for some markets - By that what he means is that although it took off in the states, 29 fell flat on its arse in the rest of the world, Europe in particular - 650 came about to force people into change because they wouldn't buy in to 29 by choice.

You seem to think manufacturers care about the high end mountain bike market outside the US... Hell I'm just over the boarder and they won't listen to a word from the reps/dealers. I think people in the UK would eventually started riding a lot more 29". It's just a nation of luddites. All the shall I go tubeless or buy a dropper post posts on here display that perfectly.

That's what I was struggling with trying to understand. I think she means that it's 29", not 26", for up to 140mm. 26" are gone. 27.5" for > 140mm.

But then she was going on about flickability. If you want that, then surely the smallest wheel is best? So who knows what she actually means.

Watch it again. She says 29" for stability and speed and 650bs for when the travel starts to make the wheelsize less relevant. I'd say you could easily have overlap between 650b and 29" upto 160mm but that's the only thing I would really disagree with what she said. Thing is Trek make a sweet 160mm 650b Slash yet Tracey Moseley just won the EWS on a 140mm Remedy 29".

[i]Watch it again[/i]

Now you're [i]really[/i] having a laugh!

Whether people want it or not I think the bit about 26" being dead tells you where they want to go. 26" parts will get harder to get. You can see now on other parts - getting 1 1/8" forks are now harder to come by (ok, Merlin have some but choice is limited compared to a few years ago).

Whilst there are loads of 26" bikes around from the last 20 odd years I bet decent, new model forks etc will be harder to get in the next couple of years

After 5 pages of the usual shit, who has actually ridden a 650b bike and 29" bike?

who has actually ridden a 650b bike and 29" bike?

yes just wish there was some middle ground between the two

#runs away back to workbench 😉

yes just wish there was some middle ground between the two

😉

After 5 pages of the usual shit, who has actually ridden a 650b bike and 29" bike

Me! Currently still have both too 🙂

A Liteville 301 & an Enduro 29.

Can't decide between them to be honest 🙄

Great. First a dogshit video, now I-know-it-all JCL wades in harping bollocks.
Its going nowhere. Bin it.

Increasingly I'm finding that the most important thing about my MTB equipment is warm feet and a comfy arse, wheel sizes are pretty low on my list of things to consider. If 27.5 is what they make then I'll buy that, I'm sure it'll be shitloads better than me.

Kudos for the Castle gif.
Finished seasons 1 &2 on netflix, preordered the 1-5 boxed set. Castle rocks.

27.5 can suck my ry se lls BECAUSE of the way its being marketed like feed is marketed to geese for foie gras

[img] [/img]

I like my giants, but im going to stick with my proper sized wheeled one for as long as possible you shower of *ng *t ******its

The wheel size debate, the gift that just keeps giving.
I recently built up a 2010 orange 5 frame I bought at Xmas last year.

At the time of purchase I was aware it was not the current model (last of the older, smaller seat tube, 1 1/8 head tube.
But that did not bother me in the slightes as I thought I had the makings of a great bike and the differences would make no difference to me.

Then i became aware of the whole wheelsize debate and was originally peed off that my bike no longer would be current and lacking compared to the far superior new 27.5 bikes that seemed to be taking over.

But now after much deliberation I am glad I have the frame I have as I genuinely believe my bike is far more capable than I ever will be.

My objection is to people standing up and saying 26 wheels are finished and not a patch on the very bikes the sold you last year, whilst singing there praises and charging you a few thousand for the pleasure.

Also a bit miffed with orange as read a post sometime ago where someone wanted to buy a replacement swingarm from them only to be told the were keeping the ones they had for any future warranty repairs.

Now surely if you spend thousands of pounds on something that you would hope to get good use of would you not expect said companies to make parts for it for atleast 5 years or so.

Imagine buying a new car and then in three years being told by the manufacturer, sorry we no longer make the parts you need and the few we have you can't have.

My objection is to people standing up and saying 26 wheels are finished and not a patch on the very bikes the sold you last year, whilst singing there praises and charging you a few thousand for the pleasure.

Exactly. F those guys.

Now surely if you spend thousands of pounds on something that you would hope to get good use of would you not expect said companies to make parts for it for atleast 5 years or so.

Imagine buying a new car and then in three years being told by the manufacturer, sorry we no longer make the parts you need and the few we have you can't have.

with cars and stuff I'm sure they have to make spares for a certain timeframe after with bikes not so sure though even if some enterprising company makes a pattern part or copy part to cater for that market a manufacturer can sue your arse

unless you make technical progress (improved product) to replace the OEM part

Also to accommodate these larger wheels,
The frames appear to have strange shaped down tubes, Stems with brewers droop And rubber stops to prevent your bar furniture from damaging your frame .

All goes to make me think they have not really thought this through.

Some suspension systems work well with bigger wheels, some it is a squeeze and the geometry [especially seat tube] gets weird to fit it all in.

Single pivots end up with very long chain stays.

Horst links seems to work pretty well.

Maestro and other twin links seem to have issues, because like single pivots they have a forward arc. Pivot and Niner get around this, because their lower link is more forward.

29er giants didn't look right and the seat angle didn't work.

For me, I think you want a straight seat-post and short chain stays, and this is much easier to achieve on 26 and 650b.

Also a bit miffed with orange as read a post sometime ago where someone wanted to buy a replacement swingarm from them only to be told the were keeping the ones they had for any future warranty repairs.

Now surely if you spend thousands of pounds on something that you would hope to get good use of would you not expect said companies to make parts for it for atleast 5 years or so.

This is one of the things that really annoys me. The whole industry seems to be saying "we were happy to take your money last year, but now you can F++* off as we have found a new set of suckers to fleece"