[Closed] Titanium frame needed; custom or off the peg?

So, you've personally made thousands of titanium frames then Brant?

Hi, I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I'm a bicycle [i]designer[/i]. I design frames, and then work with fabricators with detailed specifications and dimensional drawings to get them to weld and form things to our agreed specification.

I haven't made a frame since my last one in 1988.

bartyp - Member
So, you've personally made thousands of titanium frames then Brant?

I think you'll struggle to find a UK builder who has....

"I haven't made a frame since my last one in 1988."

So you've never made a Titanium frame? Ok. I'll get advice from people who actually have, thanks. I've no doubt you've got lots of experience in ordering and importing Far-Eastern manufactured goods, but that's not what I want. Thanks for your input though.

"I'm a bicycle designer. I design frames, and then work with fabricators with detailed specifications and dimensional drawings to get them to weld and form things to our agreed specification."

Which is pretty much what I'll be doing. Conversations with actual frame builders I've had so far, suggest what I want isn't actually that difficult, so it will be quite easy for them to work with my ideas. Which is encouraging at this stage. We'll be working with a pretty tried and tested 'design', so it's more about tweaking bits here and there and 'personalising' it really. I've been looking into anodised graphics on the frame for example; Firefly do this, and I've learned this could be possible with my frame. Utterly indulgent, but why not?

During my research and talking to others, I am now going to be having some conversations with a lad who's just starting out in (steel) frame-building, with a view to setting something up with him and possibly others. Potentially a very exciting project!

, I am now going to be having some conversations with a lad who's just starting out in (steel) frame-building, with a view to setting something up with him and possibly others. Potentially a very exciting project!

Sounds very exciting, and the point I was at in about 1988.

All the best with your quest.

Whoever gets to build your frame will be a very lucky boy (or girl).

2nd Hand?? I have a Rock Lobster Team Ti going spare very soon. Should take 700c wheels with road tyres can verify if interested. Disc brake only.

Size 19" and VGC

[i]So you've never made a Titanium frame? Ok. I'll get advice from people who actually have, thanks. I've no doubt you've got lots of experience in ordering and importing Far-Eastern manufactured goods, but that's not what I want. Thanks for your input though. [/i]

I've got rather unpleasant mental image of teeth being thumbed in brant's direction.

This whole thread seems to have been a bit like that from the OP though.

Which is a bit sad as a lot of the 'help me with my design' threads end up with a lot of interesting technical discussions and a story that you can see develop through to a completed bike.

imo the design(ergo the designer) is more important than the builder.

tweeking an existing frame with their ideas is how my 2 buddies ended up with a bike that was unridable- basically the changes they requested made the BB too low on one bike and the head angle too steep on another.

"imo the design(ergo the designer) is more important than the builder."

I like to see it as a collaboration between people with different, yet complimentary skills. I'm currently building a 'scrapbook' of possible features/details, which I can present to whoever will be building the frame, for discussion. They may tell be that X isn't possible, but Y and Z are. Somewhat like how designers, architects and engineers work together to realise projects. I have a good idea of what I want, the builder will be able to advise on possible issues and alternative solutions.

"tweeking an existing frame with their ideas is how my 2 buddies ended up with a bike that was unridable"

I'd essentially be wanting existing geometry to be replicated, knowing that it will work for me, but be open to suggestions as to how translating this into Titanium will work best. So it's quite a conservative build really.

"This whole thread seems to have been a bit like that from the OP though."

I think a few people have lost sight of the fact that it'll be my bike, not theirs, and are unable/unwilling to be more objective about things. Seems to be a lot of opinions, yet not so many actual experiences.

Currently thinking about how to accomodate mudguards and a pannier rack around a disc mount. Many designs make this very difficult r even impossible,but there are solutions round this:

[img] [/img]

Can I be the first to point out that the fence is in need of some form of treatment...

As I have never had a uk built custom titanium touring frame built to my exact specifications I am unable to comment on this thread.
I'm sure there are lots of people on here that have though.

[i]Seems to be a lot of opinions, yet not so many actual experiences.[/i]

dismissing brant's input because he doesn't actually wield the blow torch seems a bit like telling Gordon Murray you won't buy his car because he didn't personally slop the resin onto the carbon and wheel the chassis into an auto-clave.

There's a lot of good advice on this thread, perhaps a less rigid approach to achieving the end result you want would pay dividends.

anyway, I'm oot.

Titanium frame needed; custom or off the peg?

the latter please

I'm neither a designer nor a builder but here's some free advice; don't choose a brake mounting solution until you've thought about cable/hose routing and don't fit a cable-operated disk caliper to a mount in that position.

it's a custom frame, why not just mount the rack further up the seat stays?

anyway, you should drop the 'tude. I'm out too.

With respect to rack mounts, you can fit Axiom racks to conventional disk braked bikes as they fit with an "L" shaped bracket which hangs the rack over the back.

I'm not a fan of calipers between the stays.

And drop the attitude. Most framebuilders have waiting lists, the good ones stretching into months/years, they don't need the grief that comes with comments like [i]"And quite frankly, if you'd turn down £2-3000 worth of business just because the customer's a bit fussy or annoying, you're an idiot"[/i] when there's already queue of people beating a path to their door.

There was a thread on frame builders not so long ago, Bespoked popped up and commented they were turning down "framebuilders" for Bespoked Bristol who were just starting up and had little more than an instgram account and a fancy web page, is that the quality you want to work with?

"dismissing brant's input because he doesn't actually wield the blow torch seems a bit like telling Gordon Murray you won't buy his car because he didn't personally slop the resin onto the carbon and wheel the chassis into an auto-clave."

Personally, I feel that Brant's approach isn't one that's going to attract my business. I'm sure it's very successful with many others, yet Brant isn't one of those who I'll be talking to regarding having a frame built. I would say that perhaps just a little bit of investment in a simple website might, in my opinion, give off a more 'professional' approach, which in turn would instil faith in the products, but it seems Brant is't interested in such attention to detail. That's fine. As for 'dismissing his input'; I've merely stated I would rather get advice from someone who actually builds Titanium frames, than someone who doesn't. I think that's perfectly fair really.

"don't choose a brake mounting solution until you've thought about cable/hose routing and don't fit a cable-operated disk caliper to a mount in that position."

This is interesting. Care to elaborate?

"it's a custom frame, why not just mount the rack further up the seat stays?"

It all depends on the rack design. Currently looking at Tubus Ti and Blackburn. But keeping things more 'standard' gives more options. The Tubus Fly looks very nice, but might put the panniers a bit high. The Logo Titan might be a better bet, although it's a bit heavier. But as I'm not planning on doing any 'heavy' touring, the Fly might be perfect.

"And drop the attitude."

I don't have an 'attitude', other than knowing what I want. And that turning down any business just because a customer seems a bit 'fussy', is bad practice. Thankfully, no-one I've spoken to so far seems to think I am in any way fussy or annoying, and have been only to helpful to listen and give advice. I think a few posters on here cold learn something from them.

"With respect to rack mounts, you can fit Axiom racks to conventional disk braked bikes as they fit with an "L" shaped bracket which hangs the rack over the back."

Not quite as elegant a solution, but a possibility, yes. I'd be mindful of extra fittings shaking loose though, and concerned about the rigidity of the set-up.

"I'm not a fan of calipers between the stays."

Again, I'd be interested to read your thoughts on this. Quite a number of frames, custom and off the peg, have such mounts, so I'm sure they can be perfectly effective. I am considering aesthetics, and this does currently look like a good solution.

As for 'dismissing his input'; I've merely stated I would rather get advice from someone who actually builds Titanium frames, than someone who doesn't. I think that's perfectly fair really.

Not really, the ability to weld and the ability design aren't necessarily linked. Infact it's as simplistic as the division of labor, check the back of a £20 note for the quote, "the great increase in the quantity of work that results".

Again, I'd be interested to read your thoughts on this. Quite a number of frames, custom and off the peg, have such mounts, so I'm sure they can be perfectly effective. I am considering aesthetics, and this does currently look like a good solution.

It irks me because designers/builders claim it takes the stress away from the seatstay/dropout, and removes the need for a brace between the stays. When IMO having the brace is spreading the load between the two, not just swapping from one to the other. Either way it's unlikely to be an issue on a road bike. But as others have said is also brings compatibility issues. Plenty of bikes with those mounts, particularly when they first appeared, had issues with only fitting certain brakes with certain disk sizes. That's the kind of issue that could be resolved during prototyping but on a custom frame you never get that chance. Which is where the Brant's of this world come in, designing a bike that works first time as he's designed a lot (some of which didn't work), then passing on the job onto someone who can weld but doesn't necessarily know the nuances of brake clearances.

Like the difference between hiring a bricklayer and an architect.

If I was paying £3k for a frame I'd have the disk on the seatstay and I'd have a custom rack made to mount above it.

Note to O.P Brant designed On-Ones and Ragleys and I think some Planet X stuff too. You may not want to buy a bike off him but he always has good advice/ideas on threads like this.

Surely custom rack is the answer as done by Firefly, 44 Bikes (in steel) and I would assume many others.

And isn't getting a frame made out of titanium with features such as the brake optionality so it can be repaired anywhere a bit counter intuitive?

If you are going to have a rack on there full-time, why not build the rack into the frame? I took quite a bit of inspiration from [url= http://www.englishcycles.com/custombikes/rays-rohloff-tourer/ ]Rob English[/url] when putting together my bike - load of fantastic stuff on his site.

Brant had some very useful input on the design of my frame; I certainly would be ignoring the offer of advice from someone with so much experience.

Cheers, Rich

During my research and talking to others, I am now going to be having some conversations with a lad who's just starting out in (steel) frame-building, with a view to setting something up with him and possibly others. Potentially a very exciting project!

Lord help us!

"It irks me because designers/builders claim it takes the stress away from the seatstay/dropout, and removes the need for a brace between the stays. "

In fairness, they probably know more about what works and what doesn't, than you or I do. And There seem to be many builders and companies who do just this, so I'd imagine it's been tried and tested sufficiently. I take your point about caliper compatibility though, that is something to consider.

'Custom rack'- would be very nice, yet very expensive, especially in Titanium, and as racks are things that tend to get bashed around/are a bit vulnerable, I think standard mounts would be more sensible, although I am contemplating having a custom rack made.

Turboferret; is that your bike? It's beautiful. I suppose a built-in rack would be a minimal weight penalty, and save weight over a bolt-on version. Definitely something to consider. I'd be a little concerned about it getting bashed around though.

When IMO having the brace is spreading the load between the two, not just swapping from one to the other.

It's a good point and varies from frame to frame. However over stiffening a joint can cause more problems than it solves. There have been instances of spectacularly badly applied stay braces on frames over the years.

Brant had some very useful input on the design of my frame; I certainly would be ignoring the offer of advice from someone with so much experience.

Hope those chainstays are holding up at that ovalisation point I was worried about.

Brant had some very useful input on the design of my frame; I certainly would be ignoring the offer of advice from someone with so much experience.

Hope those chainstays are holding up at that ovalisation point I was worried about.

I am pleased to report that the frame is holding up nicely 🙂

This is the mounts at the back end of my bike, although I'm not using a rack:

[img] [/img]

The brake mounts aren't quite as I had envisaged, the one on the seat-stay being a bit clunky and industrial looking, but they do the job OK.

Cheers, Rich

It's a very neat and tidy looking set up though. Another thing I need to consider, is whether to use post mount or ISO disc mounts. Most calipers seem to be of the former these days, so maybe better to use them, as I'd rather not be faffing with adapters and stuff. Any thoughts on this?

"And isn't getting a frame made out of titanium with features such as the brake optionality so it can be repaired anywhere a bit counter intuitive?"

I'm agonising over this. I have XTR and Avid Ultimate V-brake options, and v-brakes are pretty ubiquitous these days, so there's greater chance I'll be able to find spare bits in an emergency. This would of course necessitate wheels utilising rims with a braking surface, but there's little or no issues or weight penalty there, so not a problem. I could have removable v-brake pivots, although this would still present an aesthetic compromise.

Really like this design from Shand, utilising a modular dropout system which can be changed for a Rohloff hub fitting. Very versatile, but I suspect would come very expensive in Titanium.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Fascinated by this mad dropout as on a friend's Surly Troll, allowing all sorts of wheel/hub combinations, but it looks heavy and a bit overkill.

[img] [/img]

I don't have an 'attitude', other than knowing what I want.

So you've never made a Titanium frame? Ok. I'll get advice from people who actually have, thanks.

You may think you don't have an attitude, but that's certainly how you come across in your posts.

[i]It's a very neat and tidy looking set up though. Another thing I need to consider, is whether to use post mount or ISO disc mounts. Most calipers seem to be of the former these days, so maybe better to use them, as I'd rather not be faffing with adapters and stuff. Any thoughts on this?[/i]

Post mount got to be the way, and if you want 140mm or 160mm or 180mm etc make sure that it's designed for the rotor size you want. For example, I like how the Magura Thor forks I had were design to run 180mm rotors from the start.

Unlike my longer travel 36's and Pikes that a designed for 160mm rotors, and need an adaptor for anything bigger - and most people run bigger than 160mm rotors on the front on bikes that take 140-160mm forks.

People could offer thoughts and experiences rather than being deliberately antagonistic. I'd be interested in looking at cable/hose routing options, types of braze on for mudguards, bottle cages etc. I think a bottle opener is essential:

[img] [/img]

"Post mount got to be the way, and if you want 140mm or 160mm or 180mm etc make sure that it's designed for the rotor size you want."

Probably 160mm maximum really. Won't need as much braking power as something like an enduro style MTB for example. Maybe even 140mm on the rear, as I'm not that heavy. Point about post mount noted.

People could offer thoughts and experiences rather than being deliberately antagonistic

Is this some sort of elaborate troll?

New member, only thread they've posted in.

Ignores all 'thoughts and experience' from people with years of industry knowledge doing exactly what they want (solving problems in frame design).

I think it's a precursor to a frame building joint venture, as alluded to previously...

The Shand droupouts look very flexible, and although it might be expensive doing it all in Ti, there isn't any reason why the black part shouldn't be aluminium to reduce the cost. Also easy to incorporate a split in the rear triangle should you want to try a belt-drive in the future.

Post mount is so much simpler for centring callipers without the need for shims. I'd also say that they're possibly a bit more forgiving in the way the braking forces are transferred to the frame.

Adding V-brake mounts seems a little counter-intuitive to me if starting with a blank canvas and designing in disc mounts. They look very ugly if not used, far more so than not using a calliper brake mount for example.

Cheers, Rich

[quote=Rusty Shackleford ]I think it's a precursor to a frame building joint venture, as alluded to previously...

Ah - this is free consultancy then? 😆
What's that phrase about a camel being a horse designed by a committee?

I only sort the cable runs on my steel frames once I have a complete frame and dummy parts build to experiment with. Otherwise you need a lot of frame design experience or a very complete / detailed 3D CAD model to get it perfect first time.

For continuous runs of outer cable, I currently use little lengths of brass tube (so it doesn't rust) silver soldered to the frame at specific locations. I guess you could do something similar in (welded) Ti.

[img] [/img]

I'd say the most skilled frame designers are ones that can successfully prototype, doing it all remotely via email and drawings alone - there are so many minor issues / cock-ups. And so many possible combinations of components and frame sizes. Even things like UK brakes being on opposite sides can affect hose runs if you are trying to mass produce.

I seem to remember the Spanner site had a fair few people that seemed to be doing MK2 versions of their first frames with all the tweaks they didn't get right first time.

Good luck. Plenty of built in rack ideas on the Tout Terrain site.

shands variation looks good but needs a tensioner or EBB to go rohloff.

that troll looks awful.

Im a fan of the whole lot sliding together through a sliding drop out as the wheel can be removed and put back in the correct place without readjusting your dropouts/wheels/brake etc IF running a rohloff is a posibility for you...

[img] [/img]

Or what about the salsa swing drop out - that does similar but even neater imo although with less adjustment.

"it might be expensive doing it all in Ti, there isn't any reason why the black part shouldn't be aluminium to reduce the cost"

Good point. Definitely something to consider. Of course, certain dropout designs may be patented, so other builders may be prevented from legally using/copying the same design.

"Adding V-brake mounts seems a little counter-intuitive to me if starting with a blank canvas and designing in disc mounts. They look very ugly if not used, far more so than not using a calliper brake mount for example."

Yeah, it's a conundrum. But as I've said, I have some very nice V-brake options, as well as a lovely set of Hope/Mavic wheels which I'd like to continue using. A disc brake mount won't look too obtrusive or ugly if I'm using v-brakes, and gives an option for the future.

And quite frankly, if you'd turn down £2-3000 worth of business just because the customer's a bit fussy or annoying, you're an idiot.

That all depends how much wasted time and effort the builder has to put into it and the likelihood that you are bound to be unhappy about something to do with the frame/experience and post about it all over the internet.
And the £2-3K of business may only make the builder a few hundred in profit in which case they could in fact be very clever in turning down your request.

Especially as they'll likely already have a waiting list, Still, that's the advantage of going to someone with no/little experience - they won't argue with you, will have no waiting list and will happily take your £2-3k for the privilege.

Just caught up with this thread. Please, please keep us updated with the project, this thread has all the hallmarks of turning into a STW classic.

I'm not a frame designer, but I will give you a bit of free advice. You keep asserting that you know what you want and get all grumpytrousers with anyone who dares disagree with you. That's fine - as you say, it's your money and your bike. But as evidenced by this thread, you don't [i]really [/i]know what you want. You're set on a course which will ultimately get you exactly the bike you ask for, of this I have no doubts, but that's a world away from the bike you actually want. Have a think on that.

As a random example; you want a money-is-no-object do-everything frame that'll potentially set you back several thousands of pounds and last you for the best part of the next two decades, and yet are basing immutable design decisions on random components you happen to have lying around. Seriously?