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I dont want to argue the point of "Made in England" is best etc, in a ideal world I would have my frames made here in the UK (to support local business) and its something I am always looking and hopefully at some point in the future this will happen but to brand all imported frames as being the same is unfair. Its the same the world over, you pay your money and you get the frame/support and backup that goes with it.
Travers Bikes are not simply an importer of off the shelf frames in a big container. All my frames go though a prototype stage and these are designed and tested in the UK by some of Awesome UK riders/Brand Ambassadors before going into production. All the frames have custom geometry, custom dropouts (on thru axles) and custom chainstays and internal cable routing (where used). I have also designed a unique Eccentric Bottom Bracket, which had all the prototype work done in the UK but when it came to production the UK firms wanted more per unit that the RRP I could charge! All Travers frames also come with a Life Time Warranty and with UK support too, I am at many events during the summer where I offer free backup to riders (not just with Travers frames).
Also my carbon "Prong 29" fork is unique to me, I hold the molds and have put it through the EN standard myself which is pretty unheard of for such a small company.
Shand do make some lovely frames too, if I was looking for a UK steel frame then they would defiantly be high on my shopping list.
You may be interested to read about my recent commuter build [url= http://www.spanner.org.uk/2015/08/richs-tico-titanium-super-commuter-from-titan-part-1-the-design/ ]here[/url] or the mega STW thread [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/custom-ti-frame-thoughts ]here[/url].
Cheers, Rich
I hear you, Travers, and I understand your point of view. I still think your prices are too much for me personally, for what is still a foreign made product. No offence meant at all. Maybe with more consideration, I could be persuaded, but it's difficult to ignore the low prices of XACD stuff, or the many positive reviews of their products. Without seeing both yours and their frames side by side, i'm sure you appreciate that it's impossible for me to make any kind of quality comparison.
Turboferret; I did find that blog interesting. Who is the UK contact for XACD, as I think it's worth looking into .
So far, Ted James stands out as someone producing pretty unique stuff, with lots of potential for something very esoteric. There are a few framebuilders out there who seem loathe to listen to customers' needs, and instead try to sell what they themselves feel is right. With many years of bike riding behind me, I do feel I have possibly the best idea of what I need though.
I've got a Salsa El-Mar Ti. If you can find a used one, it's a versatile bike (maybe not quite as versatile as the Travers though). It's lovely as a hardtail and rigid mtb (depending on trails). In addition to mtb wheels, I've had some Open Pro rimmed wheels built on Hope hubs so I can use it as a comfy road bike too. I've got the older 1&1/8th headtube version and I imagine I'll be running it for years to come.
I didn't use a UK contact for my frame, it was all done direct with the Chinese. Initially I got quotes from XACD and Titan Products. Porter at XACD was I thought incredibly rude, as a lot of others have found, but one has to expect some minor communication issues. Titan was much easier to deal with and also more competitive with price. XACD are excellent value for a standard frame, but as soon as you want to stray away from the norms the extras mount up pretty quickly. For something as quirky as mine, XACD was about double the price of their standard frame while Titan were happy to incorporate everything for pretty much the same price. You can contact Titan at titanproducts@163.com
Cheers, Rich
Equally, not Ti, but fulfilling the niche, made in the UK an shiny criteria, have you considered stainless steel?
Mercian are doing frames in 953, as are a lot of others, a problem is you probably wouldn't get lugs in the right sizes for your requirements (you're going to end up with a very short HT and a bigger angle between HT and DT than standard) so you may need to have it brazed/welded rather than luged (or I think merican will make lugs for you, they definatley do on the 853 frames, but they're brazed rather than cast). The other problems seems to be availability of 953 to small builders might mean a wait.
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk
I really want a Paul Smith road bike 🙁
Following further communication with Travers, and more consideration, I must say that some of my comments about Travers' 'Chinese' products are perhaps a little unfair, and that my earlier comments could have been considered a bit rude. This wasn't my intention at all, so I'd like to apologise for any offence I may have inadvertently caused. I was merely trying to be honest in my opinions, but maybe I was a little naive and have shifted my position slightly. This is a good thing I think.
I am grateful for advice on steel frames, and I'm sure there are many more options available, but I really want a Titanium frame. I was hoping for more 'real world' experiences, so look forward to reading about anyone's experience with custom Titanium frames.
If I was any 'custom' builder I'd be adding a risk-factor price into any quote I gave the OP, as it won't be a 'simple' purchase... But glad he posted his last comments.
FWIW I've a Ti HT, a Lynskey built On One 456 which is just a lovely bike to ride.
"it won't be a 'simple' purchase"
Of course it won't be a 'simple purchase'! I want a bike which no-one appears to make. Hence why I will probably need it custom-made. And I appreciate there will probably be one or two issues with the design and production, as it will be a one-off rather than a tried and tested model. But I want to be confidant of the builder in listening to my specific needs, if I'm paying them lots of money to make something for me. The reason for preferring a UK builder is that if anything crops up during the build, we can discuss it and find a suitable solution, rather than the builder doing something I may not be happy with. I'm prepared to spend what to many people would be a significant amount of money on a bicycle frame. Therefore, I'd like it done right.
Baldwin titanium
Dan Titchmarsh
I think Caparo or Trillion are making frames also now out of TI going by what I saw on the BML instagram page
To the OP. I'm glad you've apologised to Travers as you seemed to be comparing the cost of a remote factory gate product (i.e. just a commodity) with a fully developed, fully supported, fully locally guaranteed one. The differences cost a lot of money, as you're finding out.
I have no affiliation with anyone here but I could see the unfairness of the comparison.
Travers are essentially cutting out the middle man and offering a full UK warranty. Which is definitely worth a premium over an XACD or suchlike. How much more so is another matter.
A bit of searching earlier revealed a Seven Cycles Expat SL. Very, very nice, but £3,500 for the frame! Too expensive for an off the peg frame, for me. Strangely no geometry details anywhere. US built Titanium frames seem extraordinarily expensive. Making a custom Titchmarsh/Enigma etc look like real bargains!
Again, Seven and Engima etc are completely different animals. Seven go through a long process to build the right bike for you (don't think they do anything off the peg) and the quality is supposed to be second to none. They consider weight, power, use etc etc to tune the tubeset etc. Also building mountain bikes is part of their core skillset. I always got the impression that mountain bikes for Enigma were rather an afterthought.
I thought the Titchmarsh fella had built more than 1 frame?
Titanium frame needed
+
Used for....... rugged touring
That don't mix. Save yer cash, go for steel!
See the second highest peak in red? That's 853 that is. Stronger than both those black Ti bars, see? 🙂
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firefly
I'd be extremely weary of a graph produced by a company that has made it's name selling steel tubes that compares "A Value" to another type of material that it isn't renowned for, as a promotional tool.
If man wants a Ti bike , let him have a Ti bike.
[I]Of course it won't be a 'simple purchase'! I want a bike which no-one appears to make.[/I]
I wasn't talking about the bike... 😉
I suspect the OP won't be interested, but Lynskey offers a customisation service either full custom or tweaking their standard models to suit.
Years back I used Setavento to spec a custom frame from a Chinese ti factory - effectively Setavento did all the donkey work - my take on that with hindsight is that you probably need to have a pretty strong idea both of what you want, but how the design of the frame and the use of the material will achieve that - do you know much about relative tube sizes and their impact on ride quality, frame stiffness etc, angles blah. The frame I ended up with was okay, but more by luck than judgement and to be fair, it's still going strong, albeit with a middle cracked seat tube.
If I were in a similar position today, I'd go to Pact and take advantage of Brant's considerable experience in designing bikes rather than making those mistakes myself. I'd also wonder whether the sort of tube manipulation you can get from bigger manufacturers in the far east or the States doesn't potentially allow you to better control the ride qualities of the frame.
I'm talking about stuff like lateral stiffness around the bottom bracket and the strength of the headtube - do you really want a standard one if an oversized design adds the sturdiness you're after? I don't know the answers to all that, just thinking out loud, but don't take it as read that a bespoke UK builder is automatically going to produce something that's functionally superior.
You get that assumption about all sorts of stuff, but the best far eastern factories are often better than UK stuff not least because they have access to the latest manufacturing technologies driven by the need to meet market demands.
Of course, if you mostly want the cachet of a small UK builder and the advantages of being able to [s]harangue[/s], erm, consult with the builder during the process, that may all be irrelevant. But as above, Brant's process seems like a very attractive halfway house and it's where I'd go if my rather non-standard Ragley Ti were run over by steamroller tomorrow...
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"Save yer cash, go for steel!"
I don't want a steel frame.
"If man wants a Ti bike , let him have a Ti bike."
I want a Ti bike!
"you probably need to have a pretty strong idea both of what you want,"
I do. I just need a frame builder to turn my ideas into reality. I'd be paying them to work out tube sizes etc. For a full custom frame, I have a few ideas for extra/quirky bits and pieces, so I'll need to be able to have efficient communication between myself and the builder. Yes, to 'harangue' them, after al, it is my money!
So far, I have 3 options:
Second hand, and adapt where necessary (cheapest)
New off the peg, get as close to ideal as possible (seems difficult)
Full custom. Expensive, but most likely to end up with exactly what I want.
It could end up costing a relatively large amount of money, but in the grand scheme of things, £2-3,000 on a one-off bicycle frame isn't a huge amount, compared to other life expenses (we've recently had new windows fitted in our home at an astronomical cost (they had to be 'custom made!)). And I could quite easily spend that amount on a crap car. The bike would give me far more pleasure though, so it's 'value' would be much higher.
I haven't bought a new bike in 15 years. I figured it's time I treated myself!
Some lovely examples shown; those Firefly frames are gorgeous. Boston Mass. is a long way to go to have a frame made though!
I understand they will do it with measurments.
Go on, be the first STW to get a Firefly.
There's nothing inherently difficult in the spec you've laid out. The only issue someone might have is matching an old-style 1.125in Chris King headset (with its notoriously undersized cups). Skinny headtubes can be an issue on Ti bikes, which is one of the benefits of taper/X44 tubes. Staying dead set on that might be an issue.
But nothing at all wrong with wanting to spend money on nice things or spending your money with true "welded in the UK" stuff.
I did have half a plan to fly a Chinese welder over and have him weld some frames in Hebden Bridge for me, but that probably wouldn't be legit.
All the best with your quest.
Skinny headtubes can be an issue on Ti bikes
Can you elaborate on that, please.
Can you elaborate on that, please.
When you are trying to stiffen up the front of a bike then having a small diameter tube connecting the top and down tubes isn't smart. Then there the ovalisation of the tube that you have to do to weld it to.
I won't be needing a tapered steerer, as it will offer absolutely no real benefits for me and the type of riding the bike is intended for, plus I already have a very expensive and brand new headset to fit, and I don't see the point of wasting money to buy something new that I don't need. 1 1/8" is perfectly fine, and has been for me for well over 20 years of riding. I have ridden and owned bikes with all manner for head tube sizes, and there's really not much difference between them, often none that I can tell anyway. At 10stone, I'm not going to need the extra 'stiffness' that a tapered head tube offers, and am inclined to go with what this writer says about them:
http://www.singularcycles.com/thoughts-on-tapered-steerers/
I'll also be sticking to a tapered bottom bracket, as I've found they last a lot longer than newer external types. Call me a luddite, but having owned and ridden countless bikes throughout the last 25+ years, I've got a fair idea of what suits me.
"Go on, be the first STW to get a Firefly."
If they were based in Boston, Lincs they'd begetting a cal! I'll be 'phoning a fair few builders after the bank holiday, and try to get the ball rolling on this project. it may take some time!
You should try the boy at thorn cycles.
Hes also stuck in the 90s 🙂 should be able to give you what you want.
Fwiw i know a few folk who have gone down the custom route who knew what angles and top tube lengths etc.....
I know two of them ended up with unridable bikes as a result of pig headedness with the builder(serotta) because they "know what they want"
Take the builders advice seriously , he usually knows a thing or two.
Edit - as bdw it was settavento .....
"You should try the boy at thorn cycles.
Hes also stuck in the 90s"
The '90s was a good era for cycling innovation and development. Aheadsets, suspension, V + disc brakes, development of new materials such as Titanium and Carbon Fibre, and the Shimano sealed UN series bottom brackets. Much of what has come since, has relied on a lot of marketing bullshit to convince people that they 'need' this latest whatever. Whilst I'm sure some developments have benefited a small number of people who may push their equipment to limits beyond the capability of most of us mortals, the reality is that a lot of what existed is perfectly fine for 99% of cyclists. Companies like Thorn have been producing bikes that have been successfully ridden in all corners of the globe, so I'd say they know what they are doing, pretty much.
Brant; have you made many Titanium frames?
"Fwiw i know a few folk who have gone down the custom route who knew what angles and top tube lengths etc.....
I know two of them ended up with unridable bikes as a result of pig headedness with the builder(serotta) because they "know what they want""
Then obviously they must have got something wrong, somewhere. I'll be basing my requirements on what I know to work for me. If the builder has any ideas about how to possibly improve things, then I'm willing to listen. If they want to radically depart from what I'm asking them to do, then I'll take my money elsewhere. It's my bike, no theirs.
Brants been known to make the odd ti frame or 2.....
i have one of his frames - a TD-1 Its pretty bob on for what it was designed for.
bought to replace the thorn raven mtb it appeared to have been designed by copying a 1993 kona lavadome and then adding 200 bosses.
Was cheap way to get a rohloff though - which i suspect is why you see so many going to the corners of the globe - marketing as you put it i guess.
TBH, if I was a frame builder and you approached me after I'd read this thread I would politely turn you down.
[i]TBH, if I was a frame builder and you approached me after I'd read this thread I would politely turn you down. [/i]
Late to the party, already commented.
"TBH, if I was a frame builder and you approached me after I'd read this thread I would politely turn you down."
But you're not, and the ones I've contacted so far have been very positive indeed. And quite frankly, if you'd turn down £2-3000 worth of business just because the customer's a bit fussy or annoying, you're an idiot.
I was hoping for a few more actual experiences of having a frame made, but I appreciate that there probably aren't that many people who've actually had this. I do feel a bit trepidatious about the whole thing, but excited as well.
I don't think most of the good UK builders are struggling for business and to be honest I should think most view them selves as more than pipe welders which seems to be really what you're after. The reason you're paying that much money is because they know a thing or two about frame building... not just because they're a bit handy with a welding torch.
I think some of you have misunderstood me. I'm not after someone 'just because they're a bit handy with a welding torch' to 'weld some pipes together', I want someone to turn my ideas into reality. In fact, one builder I've spoken to today was very enthusiastic about the project, and said that my idea is actually quite simple, and has a lot of scope to do something really quite special with. Which is exactly the kind of thing I want to hear. I don't want someone who's only interested in selling me what they want to make, which is something a few others I know who've had (steel) frames made, have come up against. Which is why it would be interesting to read other peoples' experiences. Some builders start with a pretty blank canvas, and are very receptive to others' ideas, whilst others use their own templates from which to build a bike, and are reluctant to deviate from that. The point of this thread is to try to gain some insight into this.
And quite frankly, if you'd turn down £2-3000 worth of business just because the customer's a bit fussy or annoying, you're an idiot.
There's a subtle difference between being 'a bit fussy' and being 'annoying'. The former's fair enough, the latter is a great way of alienating someone you're depending on. To borrow your own phrase, if you're knowingly annoying, you're an idiot. 😉
Whereas you're simply annoying because you've nothing constructive to add. I'd be grateful if just those with relevant information/experience posted here, thanks.
Oh... I'd also add that you want to make sure that if you're going to provide preferred measurements for the frame that you want to make sure there's no ambiguity over how they're taken. I sidestepped that one by simply providing a (cracked) frame that I liked. Good luck!
And rather than being annoying, I was trying to be constructive and point out that your relationship with your frame builder is worth cultivating if you want them to go the extra mile for you. Just a thought.
the thing is, you likely have a very long list of 'requirements' but no idea how to turn this into something good. A good builder will take these requirements, understand which compromises to make and use their skill/ experience to create something brilliant.
Or you trust your own ability and tell them exactly what you want.. but unless your a frame designer what's the point in that? they're almost definitely better at it than you are.
You'll get the best outcome if you have a clear idea of what you want and then trust the builder to turn those ideas into something good.
Its the same with architecture ( my own field) let the designer do his/her own job, otherwise just hire a far eastern pipe welder. Just don't blame them if it's not all that you'd hoped for 🙂
btw, I'm only commenting as I have just been through a similar situation myself and my builder was brilliant.
I will be using a retired frame as a reference, as it's a near-perfect fit, and has ideal geometry. The builder can use that as a starting point, and work from there.
"You'll get the best outcome if you have a clear idea of what you want and then trust the builder to turn those ideas into something good."
I've been saying this al along. People have either ignored me, misunderstood, or assumed I don't know what I'm talking about. Which is their problem, not mine.
I almost wish I did want a steel frame, as there are so many more options than Titanium. Companies like Field, Saffron, Donhou and many others make some gorgeous frames.
http://www.fieldcycles.com/gallery
can't be arsed to go through cherry picking quotes but that's not how it sounded, hence the replies.
good luck on the search though!
Brant; have you made many Titanium frames?
From On-One Tinbred, On-One CX, On-One 456 Ti (10/10 in What Mtb) to Ragley Ti, Td1, On-One Ti456 Evo, Planet X ProRoad, Titus Fireline Evo, On-One Pickenflick, to the double figures of Pact frames, as well as custom frames along the way for Doddy from MBUK and MC from CRC.
A few. Yeah. Certainly in the thousands.
Pact offer full 3d modelling of our frames for sign off by customers.
We have a dodgy website and are a bit odd though.
This customer seems happy. But apparently we are related
https://t.co/zXNtQW8ufm
Lolz
So, you've personally made thousands of titanium frames then Brant?
I suspect Pact won't be making you a bike.
I have an inkling this won't upset either party overly.
Robin Mather used to advertise that he made Ti bikes. A Ted James would be very cool. Personally I wouldn't have V brake bosses and disc tabs. Also I wouldn't be tempted to go for 953 over ti. For a steel bike Demon Frameworks look awesome.