Ok I don't want to turn this into a bike fit thread, but does anyone else find their winter bike far more uncomfortable than their summer bike?
Summer bike is carbon frame and fork, carbon seatpost, carbon railed saddle, carbon bars, 30mm GP5000 with TPU tubes. It's set up a tiny bit more aggressively than the winter bike but generally the positions are very similar.
Winter bike is aluminium frame, carbon fork, carbon seatpost, same model saddle but with alloy rails, aluminium bars, slightly fatter bar tape, 26mm Pirelli Cinturato Velo TLR set up tubeless.
The winter bike is a bit older, and has mudguards, hence the narrower tyres, but they're pretty robust tyres and tubeless, so are only marginally (75psi vs 70psi) harder than the wider tyres on the summer bike. I could try drop this a wee bit more but I don't really think it's a road buzz thing.
I just wonder if winter riding by it's nature (for me: slower, more upright, generally aiming for Z2) puts more weight on the saddle and bars as you're not taking the weight with your legs as much? I've dialled in the reach recently so am not getting the elbow pain I was getting (turns out the top tube on the winter bike is longer, so it was just a fit issue) but I'm still really uncomfortable on the saddle, same saddle I use on the summer road bike and have quite happily used on the gravel bike in the past. Maybe just plodding along requires a more comfortable saddle?
Or is the frame just cursed? I would love to build up a nice steel audax type machine for winter road duties but finances don't allow it...
Worth swapping the saddles over, see if the rails make any difference or is there more deterioration on the padding?
Frame makes a massive difference. My winter bike - a steel Genesis Equilibrium - is much more comfortable than my carbon summer bike, even with tyres that are ~4mm(!) narrower. Genesis is running 27mm tyres and it just glides over everything.
Wish you hadn't said that, I remember looking at the Equilibrium and there's one on sale in my size too, looks lovely.
Wife would murder me though ☹️
Will swap saddle in the meantime for the more padded Power Arc Elaston from my gravel bike..
In my experience some saddies pack down after a while. I was a big fan of the Charge Spoon (and its clones) but found they lost all support after a year or so and I'd need to replace them.
A different riding position will also have an effect. As someone once explained to me, on a mountain bike you tend to be sitting on the saddle but on a road bike you are more sitting along the saddle.
Meanwhile I'm laughing at 26mm tyres 😂 (my Amazon is currently sporting 47mm)
Alu frame and narrower tyres certainly won't be helping, possibly saddle to. Not a cheap fix though (unless swapping saddles around does the trick), I assume the alu frame has more limited tyre clearance?
I had intended to use my gravel bike as my winter road bike but later realised using full mudguards for road means I then can't really use it for off-road rides (without the faff of taking the guards off each time). So ended up putting the full mudguards on my road bike and have been using that instead but running 35mm GP5000ASTR instead of 32mm STR's I was using (although I hate that it now looks trashed after every ride due to the crap weather recently!).
So in your case if it's a choice of riding an uncomfortable bike all winter vs putting mudguards on your summer bike and using that instead I'd do the latter. In reality although it might look crap caked in mud it's probably not wearing much significantly and cheaper to replace drive train bits than a whole bike.
Yeah, I can't quite believe it's just a harshness thing, it doesn't feel harsh over individual bumps really, but I'm definitely far more aware of the saddle! It's a brand new saddle so won't have packed down, although it is a Fizik Antares which are never the plushest to begin with, but again, I've used them for big days on other bikes quite happily.
A left-field idea sort of inspired by Fuzzywuzzy is to sell both the Allez and (breaks my heart to say this) the Charge Plug singlespeed to raise enough funds for a second set of gravel wheels. As it is, my good, 853 gravel bike gets hung up for winter and I do my gravel riding on the CX bike, but both bikes share a wheelset (135mm OLD rim brake, so not compatible with any of my road wheels).
A second set of wheels (and some mudguards) mean I can turn the summer gravel bike into a winter road bike while the CX bike does off-road duties. This way my wife sees the total number of bikes in the garage reduce even if there's no financial gain involved 🙄
Would be quite nice having two fewer bikes to maintain as well...
So in your case if it's a choice of riding an uncomfortable bike all winter vs putting mudguards on your summer bike and using that instead I'd do the latter. In reality although it might look crap caked in mud it's probably not wearing much significantly and cheaper to replace drive train bits than a whole bike.
Yeah nah, there's absolutely zero chance I'm taking the Basso off the turbo trainer and riding it outside, even if I could fit mudguards to it. Far too pretty, far too impractical 😆
My guess, frame.
I have carbon for both summer and winter, set up the same reach and stack (as close as I can reasonably get between two different frames) and same saddle (Antares braided)
Due to limited clearance the winter bike has 25/28mm tyres on 19mm internal rims (70/75 psi).
Also has aluminium post (Thomson) and aluminium 'bars (ZippSL)
Yet rides noticeably smoother than my summer bike on 28/28 23mm internal (65 psi) with carbon bars and post.
same bike winter and summer. 725 steel tourer. sofa comfort running 700 x 47 tyres in summer and 700 x 40 puncture proof in winter. saddle comfort is a issue i have. still cant find a comfy one. tried a saddle fitting at Specialized. outcome was i needed a 145mm wide saddle. bought one and it crippled me. tried a cambium c19 for a couple of year, it was pretty good until it died. ned to source something.
26mm tyres are very narrow these days. The narrowest I run are 28mm GP5000s at 60PSI. I think 28mm tyres are a bit narrow this time of year so my road bike hasn’t been out for ages. If you can’t go up to 30mm tyres on that bike you need a different bike. I’m currently shopping for a new summer race bike and clearance for at least 30mm is a must.
That reminds me - it's Global Fatbike Day tomorrow.
Both my road bikes have had bike fits, so position matches.
The dry/summer bike is a Scott Addict carbon, running 30mm tyres with tubes.
The winter/wet/audax bike is titanium and on 32mm tyres. It's noticeably heavier and slower but can't say I have more discomfort on either.
I solve the problem by riding the same bikes all year round.
I solve the problem by riding the same bikes all year round.
Yeah, if I could start again, or came into some money, I could make this work, a really nice Ti or stainless buuld, deep drop rim brskes, space for big tyres, carefully placed mudguard mounts to make it a 5 minute job with an allen key to fit and remove guard, etc.
As it is I'm now committed to rationalising the fleet, new wheels for the gravel bike on their way from JustRidingAlong, hopefully I can recoup the money selling my Allez and my Charge Plug singlespeed (stealth ad! 😎).
I'm still addicted to the idea of s dedicated summer bike though for all the marginal gains it might bring, important for shaving seconds off Strava times! 😉
Why not just put some clip on guards on your summer bike, sell the winter bike and enjoy the bike you like?
How many miles less will you get out of a posh summer road bike by running it in winter?
I have an alloy and carbon synapse. The alloy takes 25c tires as an absolute maximum and the carbon is on 32c tires.
The alloy one is my pub bike now as the tires are significantly less comfy over any distance. I did 80 miles on it last winter, the largest difference is the tires and a less comfy saddle. The carbon one was broken at the time and I regretted not fixing it by the end of the ride
Why not just put some clip on guards on your summer bike, sell the winter bike and enjoy the bike you like?
Because I take a lot of pleasure in the summer bike because of its many impracticalities (bare carbon bars, very awkward internal cable routing, fragile but lightweight tyres and tubes etc) but also because it's so clean and shiny. I can't be alone in enjoying having a 'nice' bike surely?
It's not a matter of how many fewer miles I'll get (with a waxed drivetrain I don't find that winter seems to age components significantly anyway, perhaps cables I guess).
Oh, and I'm done with clip-on guards, once you go full length PDW there's no going back! 😎
But I do take the point that I shouldn't be suffering a bike that doesn't suit just because it's winter, using my gravel bike is a win-win as it fits and I'll want to put more miles on it anyway as prep for big summer gravel rides.
You mention seated comfort - all the small changes you can make to post or saddle rail material will add up but I'll join those saying it's probably the frame difference creating the impression overall. Not because of 'vertical compliance' or anything like that, but an Alu frame is likely to be less shock-absorbing than the carbon frame and may be torsionally stiffer. If it is stiffer in that way the lack of twist can add up to the perception of less comfort - the frame just doesn't deflect as much on bad roads or corners and there's less give as you move naturally while pedalling. It's suprising how little force it takes to twist a steel (or some carbon) frame a small amount and that twist eases some of the pressure or force you feel between pdeal, saddle and bars.
fwiw my winter/training road bike is a 2010 Equilibrium with a Tange Prestige fork. 25mm tyres at 75psi. Guards most of the time. It's comfy enough, rides over 4-5hrs often have me noticing bad road surfaces more than I want to and my gravel bike on 650 x 50mm G-Ones is far better there, but there's something about a 'proper' road set up that I like. The Equilibrium is stiffer under power than my lugged 631 custom frameset audax bike but the its compact frame means plenty of post exposed and that really helps seated comfort. More bike frames should be more compact imo.
Oh, and I'm done with clip-on guards, once you go full length PDW there's no going back! 😎
All of this
Well in a shocking turn of events, just fitting a more comfortable saddle might have done the trick.
Fitted the Specialized Power Arc Elaston (the more bouncy foamy padding they do). Instant improvement.
Doesn't explain why the Antares works so well on other bikes and not this one, but presumably the factors that Jameso and others mention above have something to do with that, or maybe the bars being higher is putting more weight on saddle and making the absence of padding more apparent...
In other news, I dug out an ancient Light and Motion Stella 150 light. It's amazing how effective those 150 lumen are compared to the 1100 lumen of my new Cateye. Shows what a difference a good lens can make.
Why not just put some clip on guards on your summer bike, sell the winter bike and enjoy the bike you like?Because clip on guards are all but useless? Many of them damage or mark the frame, most of them provide poor to shit protection from spray for you or those you ride with.
How many miles less will you get out of a posh summer road bike by running it in winter?I ran my race bike through the winter a couple of years when i didn't have funds for a winter bike. It cost me several hundred quid in parts both years. Corroded brakes, destroyed tyres, worn out rims, brake pads, chain, cassette. And i was wet and miserable for the entire winter.
I'm another in the camp of winter bike and summer road bike and nothing will convince me otherwise. Nice carbon trek bike for summer/dry use and once it gets to winter or particularly wet rides I used my winter bike which is a sonder camino gravel bike but with pretty slick tryes on it, heavier and therefore slower but it's winter and I want that sure footedness. Also absolutely nothing wrong with my strap on guards, yes they're slightly abrasive to the paint but I can whip them off in 10 seconds flat to clean my bike properly or on crisp but dry days or when I use it over the summer as a munro bike to ride along tracks etc.
"Genesis is running 27mm tyres"
My Equilibrium Disc is on 32mm and it's lovely on rough roads. I can't believe it took me so long to go wide.
Because clip on guards are all but useless? Many of them damage or mark the frame, most of them provide poor to shit protection from spray for you or those you ride with.
Check out RAW flaps, they do an XL version specifically to solve the problem of raceblades being anti-socially short at the rear.
I ran my race bike through the winter a couple of years when i didn't have funds for a winter bike. It cost me several hundred quid in parts both years. Corroded brakes, destroyed tyres, worn out rims, brake pads, chain, cassette. And i was wet and miserable for the entire winter.
Yea, I agree it's tough on bikes, the grit and water inevitably leaves the finish scuffed and scratched. But for the cost of even a basic winter bike, you could probably fund a decade of cassettes and chains.
I took the opposite approach, I retired my old summer bike to the turbo trainer and just bought a nice "endurance" bike that I ride all year, no more dicking around with poorly fitting mudguards, bottom gear ratios that were aspirational rather than realistic uphill, fragile paint finishes, cheap/dull components on the bike I actually want to ride for 6 months of the year. It's almost certainly slower than an SL8 or SuperSix, but I've tweaked the position for comfort and as long as I can tuck into the group any performance loss is probably trivial.
But I do take the point that I shouldn't be suffering a bike that doesn't suit just because it's winter, using my gravel bike is a win-win as it fits and I'll want to put more miles on it anyway as prep for big summer gravel rides.
That's my other solution, some months/years I just fall out of love with whatever riding I'm doing. Maybe that means going solo on the fixie, or getting the MTB, or the singlespeed out, maybe it's even Zwifting.
You don't have to go out and make yourself uncomfortable and miserable to prove some point, it's meant to be fun.
Genuinely don't understand why folk don't ride carbon road bikes in winter. expensive groupsets don't make sense. But carbon frames do
Clip on guards absolutely are not useless. But not all guards work so well with all road frames. So make sure to get something that does work well with yours and take pride in fitting them as securely and rub free as you can. little modifications may help here. Also if you don't race the bike and you live in the UK where it rains all year round. leave them on all year long.
Also. While on the subject of guards. Even though they do a marvelous job of keeping the worst of the spray off you and your bike/components I'd still recommend getting into the habit of cleaning, rinsing and drying your bike straight after every ride if the roads are at all wet (even when it hasn't rained during the ride). Once you're used to doing this and have a decent cleaning routine it shouldn't take much longer than a 5 minutes after each ride and another minute or so to re-lube your chain and wipe it clean. Makes a massive difference to components corroding/seizing and you'll also have checked the bike over ready thoroughly before it's next outing.
OP: Why thicker bar tape on a winter bike when presumably you'll be wearing thicker gloves? Perceived increased vibration from alloy bars?
Same contact points, same geometry. Although I have fixed and geared best road bikes and full-mudguarded winter equivalents for poor weather. No I don't have a problem, thank you very much!
The tragedy is that the alloy Defy winter frame handles just like the Advanced SL which cost about 20x as much!
I'd still recommend getting into the habit of cleaning, rinsing and drying your bike straight after every ride if the roads are at all wet
Definitely this. The gunk comes off so much easier. And my narrow PDWs accumulate gunk on top despite good protection.
I ride either a power arc or Bontrager Aeolus. I've tried the Antares on two occasions , each time for about a month, and found it to be a very hard saddle. You mention that the winter bike is a bit more upright and this will put more load through your sit bones. I think the aluminum frame and the narrower / harder tyres will contribute to the stiffness. But good result if the saddle fixes your problems, it's a cheaper solution!
Genuinely don't understand why folk don't ride carbon road bikes in winter. expensive groupsets don't make sense. But carbon frames do
I certainly wasn't absolutely convinced that aluminium had to be uncomfortable, and carbon is typically expensive which I guess instinctively just didn't seem like a good idea for a winter bike. Higher likelihood of press fit BBs which again, I was instinctively against for a winter bike (although my luck with press-fit has been reasonably good).
I ride either a power arc or Bontrager Aeolus.
My interest in the Aeolus is renewed now that they have made the nose a bit narrower, I always found it a touch chunky (which is why I like the Antares, tends to 'disappear' between the legs more than other saddles). I've always said my ideal saddle would just be an Antares with more padding, the LBS has one of the very expensive 3d printed Antares in my size, I did wonder if the 3d printing would act 'softer'.
For better or for worse I'm pretty much committed to winter-ising my summer gravel bike now, the spare wheels are on their way. It's 853 steel but slightly overbuilt, hopefully still a smoother ride than the Allez, I managed a 12hr Audax on it in at least!
I've just done the same with my Crux ( turning gravel bike into winter road bike ). 32mm Pzero Race TLRs, 44 chain ring and 11-42 cassette, crud racer guards. Two rides in and really pleased with it, and so much easier to clean not having a front derailleur
But for the cost of even a basic winter bike, you could probably fund a decade of cassettes and chains.I spent enough in two years to almost cover the cost of a 105/tiagra equipped steel "Audax" frame in 525 tubing. I snapped that after 8 or 9 years of commuting/training and all round abuse, not bad for just under a grand, and got a kinesis frame, which i still have.
Clip on guards absolutely are not useless.If they weren't useless you wouldn't have to modify them or take "extra care" fitting them. A pair of SKS takes 15 minutes to fit on a frame that's designed for them, and won't need touching for several years. And my feet and shins stay dry. A shit load of clubs i've ridden with in northern europe and scandinavia don't allow them on the "main" club run either. Have to ride in the "other" group.
And FWIW, i've had some sort of a cleaning station or kit set up every winter since about 1985. Bike is usually cleaned and in the house/workshop within about 10 minutes of getting home. Current place i even have a bike stand and hose pipe set up outside the back door permanently. So nothing goes in the house dirty.