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kerley
You are really struggling with this social conditioning thing aren’t you.
I’m not the one struggling.
🤔🙄🤔🙄😃😃😃😃😃😃
You can encourage women to ride bikes without ever even talking to one, much less trying to force them onto a bike
vickipea
I think it’s interesting to note the changes in attitudes towards women in sports over the decades. When I was at school in the 1980s, girls seemed as keen and active as boys, although PE lessons and clubs didn’t cater for certain sports for girls, including football and basketball.
I continued with various sports after I left school but in the 1990s I was always struck by the lack of sports kit for women: sports shops consisted of an enormous roomful of kit for boys and men, and a token one pink T-shirt and pair of shorts for women hidden in the corner.
Since then, girls get to play football in school, there are many more visible role models in elite sport, and sports shops sell loads of clothing for women. I keep hearing that a huge % of teenage girls quit sport after compulsory PE lessons stop. So why is that? It doesn’t seem to match the greater visibility of women in sports these days?
Lots of different questions ....
sports shops consisted of an enormous roomful of kit for boys and men, and a token one pink T-shirt and pair of shorts for women hidden in the corner
Most shops are going to use their space for what sells the most.
Perhaps a different question might be why do we have male and female specific cycling jerseys/tops?
Granted I buy mens ones but mine all fit over body armour so it would need to be a very well endowed lady (or whatever politically correct way to say that) that it didn't fit... but when I do see womens specific cycling tops (looking for sizes for my lad) it seems to be tailored.
I'd also question why anyone but especially people cycling for leisure rather than elite level racing even needs cycle/football (etc) specific clothing... (excluding short liners/boots)
That to me is just social conditioning... it just applies to both genders.
As a few people on here know I usually wear an old pair of jeans and whatever top is cheap at Sainsbury's when riding.
Another way to look at the shopping experience (not right or wrong just an alternative)
sports shops consisted of an enormous roomful of kit for people in general, and a couple of women specific items
Why do lots of girls quit sports after being forced to do them at school ?
Same reason many boys do... you listed a few but jobs, moving away from their mates etc. etc.
If I take what you wrote and rewrite it in a gender neutral way ...
In my 20s/30s I found that many of the friends I knew would get together and talk about stuff didn't interest me
Thus, I never fitted in with the social circles of the people I'd grown up with, which reinforced my own choices. This is not meant to be a criticism of those people, and I know there are plenty of them with similar interests to me out there. Nevertheless it was my experience that doing what I wanted to do meant excluding myself from other stuff my mates from school were doing.
This is the basis of what I'm trying to say...
Some people like different stuff and some people like stuff their mates do... quite a lot of that will be depending where you live as well.
However that falls gender wise it is what it is... I guess what I'm saying is why worry about someone's gender in terms of their interests rather than just what their interest are instead of their gender?
Firstly, @stevextc, make your posts shorter. They ramble and are hard to read.
where exactly do you draw the line between not listening, talking them into it, coercion and forcing.
If someone of any gender tells you “its just not for me” how far would YOU go to try and change their mind?
I don't advocate persuading or coercing anyone to do anything, that's patently ridiculous. What I want is positive representation. You don't talk to girls/asians/whatever and try and convince them to do the thing; you show people like them doing it, and that removes the image barrier from them doing the thing. So they may decide they enjoy it - or they may not, of course.
Sheesh, if you thought we were advocating trying to force people to do sports, no wonder you were arguing. That's clearly stupid. Another tip though - if someone appears to be saying something totally ridiculous online, perhaps read it again through more sympathetic eyes, because they probably aren't being ridiculous.
That’s pretty much what I’ve said the whole way through… rather than what others have inferred or twisted to their agenda.
Tip 3 - that's a very toxic statement. We're not twisting anything to an agenda, that's a hugely negative accusation - we're trying to explain how we can be more positive and inclusive.
Molgrips
Tip 3 – that’s a very toxic statement. We’re not twisting anything to an agenda, that’s a hugely negative accusation – we’re trying to explain how we can be more positive and inclusive.
Who is WE ... ???
Again I am not saying YOU... I am saying others on the thread posting toxic fake articles saying how it is all because of white male privelidge.
Another tip though – if someone appears to be saying something totally ridiculous online, perhaps read it again through more sympathetic eyes, because they probably aren’t being ridiculous.
Right so the reason most men don't ride horses is nothing to do with the fact its an elitist sport that few can afford... again not YOU saying this.
And um, when I suggest it might be a good idea to ask women who don't ride bikes why they don't ride... that's because I don't I understand because apparently those women don't have an opinion worth listening to.
You don’t talk to girls/asians/whatever and try and convince them to do the thing; you show people like them doing it, and that removes the image barrier from them doing the thing.
So directed at you not the collective... if someone tells you its not an image barrier they just want to do something else do you need to question why ??? (As some on here are saying).
molgrips
Firstly, stevextc, make your posts shorter. They ramble and are hard to read.
Some people (not you) are pushing an agenda that has years of practice of dismissing the obvious and fact whilst presenting fake fact as fact.
The practice is to ask a complex question then dismiss it because they are not interested in either facts or the answer. Try looking at any flat earth/anti-vax discussion.
Some people (not you) are pushing an agenda that has years of practice of dismissing the obvious and fact whilst presenting fake fact as fact.
Who? On this thread?
if someone tells you its not an image barrier they just want to do something else do you need to question why ???
The point about the image barrier is that it's subversive, and you don't know it's happening. Obviously some people are aware, but many aren't. Many many examples of this all through life.
saying how it is all because of white male privelidge
Oh, is it because mentioning white male privilege makes you feel got at, as a white male? Tip 4 - it shouldn't, it's not a criticism.
And um, when I suggest it might be a good idea to ask women who don’t ride bikes why they don’t ride… that’s because I don’t I understand because apparently those women don’t have an opinion worth listening to.
I don't think anyone's suggesting we shouldn't ask women why they don't ride (obviously). It's about understanding how people and society operate.
Honestly mate you take every point and extrapolate it to the most bizarre conclusions and then get aerated about it. No wonder you're so angry all the time if that's how you see the internet.
Oh, is it because mentioning white male privilege makes you feel got at, as a white male? Tip 4 – it shouldn’t, it’s not a criticism.
Nope its because people are pedalling fiction as fact to meet an agenda.
Who? On this thread?
Did you read the Ontario article... ???
The point about the image barrier is that it’s subversive, and you don’t know it’s happening. Obviously some people are aware, but many aren’t. Many many examples of this all through life.
I've answered this countless times. (As has Vickipea in her way. )
Certainly for most teenagers (which is when most drop out of activities they have been coerced into) the image barrier is pure and simple what your mates are doing.
This is 2021 ... every child in my county gets a chance to ride bikes. I know the CC schools cycling coordinator and I really don't believe she is trying to bias boys or anyone else.
My house / home office is directly across from one of the places she uses for kids cycling proficiency... and from what I see from my window I don't see more boys than girls.
If they don't want to participate or drop out when they are teenagers or later then so what??
From my perspective I don't really care how many people like cycling, yoga, football or anything else so long as they are happy.
People have limited leisure time and if they enjoy what they do then why try to drag them off to try something else they feel they won't like?
“ Honestly mate you take every point and extrapolate it to the most bizarre conclusions and then get aerated about it. No wonder you’re so angry all the time if that’s how you see the internet.”
This is so true. Steve, most of us have given up reading your replies, as they’re like a weird stream of angry tangential consciousness at best.
This is 2021 … every child in my county
Is this county Dreamland?
Is this county Dreamland?
No just the real world, try it sometime.
OK, so this thread is asking why there aren't more girls riding bikes. The concensus seems to be that it is due to social conditioning amongst other things. The popular solution to this is to have positive examples available showing girls having fun on bikes.
Now, if I were a girl (sorry girls, I hope this is not patronising or offensive in any way. It is not meant to be.) and I had the slightest inkling that I might like to ride mountain bikes but was worried that it was not for women. I would probably have a look on t'internet for "girls riding mountain bikes" and ooh look! Loads of videos showing positive images of girls having fun on mountain bikes. All right some of those thumbnails do seem rather exploitative but you get my drift.
Problem solved, expect to see a whole load more girls ripping up the trails sometime soon.
No just the real world, try it sometime.
So in this county you live in every child has access to a bike, that's pretty amazing where is it. I mean in some counties kids don't have access to enough food, so yours is doing great. In other places kids don't have access to safe and appropriate housing....I might move where do I go?
^ @molgrips - Who’s ‘we’? Lots of diverse opinions on here. Assuming a collective just feeds into SteveXTC’s fantasy of legions of politically motivated menifeminazis who are bullying girls and women into liking messing about on bikes.
Which reminds me, who are all these dead strawpersons scattered on the floor? Seems they were slain without any struggle whatsoever...😉
OK, so this thread is asking why there aren’t more girls riding bikes
Some contributors are. But not the thread. I was referring to my childhood experience. It’s in the title. I also didn’t write the OP as a question, more of a statement and a video share. It’s been interesting and I’ve enjoyed reading of some other experiences. The strawman battles and posturing tho? not so much tbh 🙁
My local road club have got loads more female members by having women only rides, I questioned why they needed, to my partner as she runs them but fair play they are really popular. So obviously us blokes are providing some sort of barrier.
anagallis_arvensis
My local road club have got loads more female members by having women only rides, I questioned why they needed
Good question, but what was the answer?
According to my road club it was mainly being concerned that they wouldn't be able to keep up/be good enough on a mixed spin.
A few didn't want to be oogled.
A few didn't want to be talked down to.
Good question, but what was the answer?
Well my partner says it's due to just being intimated by male dominated club, but before you go you don't know what they are like and she went along to normal club runs (I don't go on them as I ride Saturdays and couldn't go with her due to childcare). It's hard to grasp for me why it's be a problem. It does suggest that there are unseen barriers to women though.
anagallis_arvensis
Well my partner says it’s due to just being intimated by male dominated club
That's not hard to understand.
Saccades
A few didn’t want to be oogled.
A few didn’t want to be talked down to
If that's what happens then it's not surprising they don't want to ride with the men.
If that’s what happens then it’s not surprising they don’t want to ride with the men.
The point being women only rides attract new riders who have not tried the club before. It's what they think it will be like that's the issue. Most do a few women only rides before trying and carrying on with regular club runs.
Well my partner says it’s due to just being intimated by male dominated club
Intimated sounds very wrong!! I meant intimidated.
Just spotted this
However, royal household staff did not consider a bike to be a suitable form of transport for a future member of the Royal Family and she was ordered to stop riding it.
https://road.cc/content/news/princess-dianas-shame-bicycle-sold-ps44000-282905
So in this county you live in every child has access to a bike, that’s pretty amazing where is it. I mean in some counties kids don’t have access to enough food, so yours is doing great.
Don't mention some have horses, please don't mention horses.
OK, so this thread is asking why there aren’t more girls riding bikes
Some contributors are. But not the thread. I was referring to my childhood experience. It’s in the title.
Sorry about that, it seems to have gone on for so long that I forgot how it started.
Don’t mention some have horses, please don’t mention horses.
Yeah, I'm [i]really[/i] sorry I started that..!
I guess I’m not much help in suggesting why more women don’t ride mountain bikes (though there are plenty on road bikes round here). I don’t tend to be put off by male-dominated activities, I haven’t found that them intimidating or that they talk down to me. Sure, you do encounter the occasional alpha-male (and alpha-female) but not whole groups of them (then they wouldn’t be the alpha!)
According to my road club it was mainly being concerned that they wouldn’t be able to keep up/be good enough on a mixed spin.
A few didn’t want to be oogled.
A few didn’t want to be talked down to.
With the possible exception of the middle one those seem to be the same as males though
(I say possible as a few of my regular riding buddies might)
I went on a "no drop casual" ride back about a year ago. (Swinley)
I got talked down to for what I was wearing (jeans and t-shirt) and my cheap HT by someone riding a Race spec carbon mega and full body armour round Swinley.
The person who'd organised it spent the entire ride dropping a couple of noobs, waiting till they caught up and then setting off before they had chance to recover. I was quite happy to keep back and let them go their own pace and stay back with them to let them have a breather after catching up. One of them gave up 1/2 way round ..
As it happens (or perhaps there is a reason) I still ride with both of them quite often (the one who gave up and his mothers as well and neither of them has been back out with the guy who wanted to drop them (perhaps there is a reason).
I'm gravel curious enough to go for a fireroad ride with the other riding buddies BF who doesn't want to ride singletrack. (erm cos its just not for him, he tried and doesn't like it) and one of his female work colleagues who we meet at the pump track/DJ as well.
This doesn't seem to be a gender issue as much as what happens on a "mixed spin" or "no drop" ride.
Incidentally I also know a couple of competitive women riders who do the same...
I might not be a riding god but I could have dropped the organiser any time I wanted... its just my expectation of a "no drop" ride doesn't mean waiting for them to gloat in the car park and say how long I've had to wait ...
Vickipea
Sure, you do encounter the occasional alpha-male (and alpha-female) but not whole groups of them (then they wouldn’t be the alpha!)
Very well explained!!!!
idiotdogbrain
Yeah, I’m really sorry I started that..!
You also brought up the assertion men only eat meat cos its manly...
p7eaven
Who’s ‘we’? Lots of diverse opinions on here. Assuming a collective just feeds into SteveXTC’s fantasy of legions of politically motivated menifeminazis who are bullying girls and women into liking messing about on bikes.
Which reminds me, who are all these dead strawpersons scattered on the floor? Seems they were slain without any struggle whatsoever…😉
The problem is you are unable to accept why most people don't ride bikes and it seems you only want to hear the fem-splaining that ignores every relevant fact like the disgusting Ontario article posted.
The people that write this tripe may or may not believe it ... but its hard to believe they actually do believe when they make so much effort at falsifying facts.
An example is trying to extrapolate men who ride horses in the UK to Registered Olympic discipline competitors internationally. Posting that is simply trying to misrepresent numbers.
OK, so this thread is asking why there aren’t more girls riding bikes
So your OP aside ...
Every reason deliberately ignored in the Ontario article.
Umm, they get cars ... they develop other interests, they start work and have no free time...
The Ontario article tries to compare women doing outdoors activity in Ontario to the UK ... conveniently forgetting to mention the population density amongst other gross differences all under the guise of a title "Outdoor Adventure in the UK is a Male Privilege"
Most importantly it references similar fake papers that have ignored and constructed evidence as fact ... this is no different to Flat Earth.
Like flat earth challenge a precept "like gravity doesn't exist" and either "you don't understand do you because you have been socially conditioned" or "you wrote loads of bring words (and formulae) I refuse to read.
So in this county you live in every child has access to a bike, that’s pretty amazing where is it. I mean in some counties kids don’t have access to enough food, so yours is doing great.
I have a 20" in the shed, the sole purpose I keep it is to lend to the schools cycling...
“I don’t tend to be put off by male-dominated activities”
Although I’m male and participate in loads of male dominated activities, I definitely find new situations less intimidating when there are women present. And I’m not lacking in confidence in talking to new people or easily physically intimidated...
Regarding horse-riding, growing up in the countryside and moving in circles where people did ride, I recall considering it rather a girly thing.
In my 20s my girlfriend coaxed me into learning and it turns out I really enjoy it, especially heading out into the relative wilds on multi-day trips. Before we had kids I used to alternate MTBing and horse-riding each week, but now the horse-riding is on hold because it’s much more logistically complex (commuting on a horse or just dumping it in the garage when dirty, aren’t really options).
Regarding horse-riding, growing up in the countryside and moving in circles where people did ride, I recall considering it rather a girly thing.
No, not horses again. You do realise not everybody can afford a horse don't you and that is an important factor in this discussion for some obscure reason.
My cycling group started women only rides and now have several women coming along to those.
A couple of reasons they chose the women's only ride rather that going out with our slower mixed group were
- perceived themselves as not quick enough
- less competitive environment
My girls have said the same with the skateboard club they go to - at the girls only night the atmosphere is much more supportive of each other rather than showing off / competitive - I guess the same is true for mtb.
You do realise not everybody can afford a horse don’t you and that is an important factor in this discussion for some obscure reason.
Its hardly "not everybody" and along with "living in a city" the over riding reason most people don't ride a horse as a leisure activity.
Worrying about exact gender split in an elite hobby few can afford illustrates just how pointless it is worrying who chooses to do what or not do what and why...
If you go and ask 1000 people who don't ride horses scattered around the UK respecting population density the absolute overriding reasons are likely to be cost and where they live.
If only the other hand you go and ask 1000 people do you see riding horses as a male or female activity you may get a different answer... but since most of them will never have the opportunity its a pointless question as its not what's stopping most people riding horses.
Same as other spurious assertions such as men eat meat cos its manly... quite frankly never heard a man say that before this thread... but then that man was a vegan.. and are driving their religion/agenda yet somehow knows all the men who eat meat do so "cos its manly" but don't ask us cos we'z social conditioned aint uz so our opinion doesn't count.
See, I said don't mention horses...
at the girls only night the atmosphere is much more supportive of each other rather than showing off / competitive – I guess the same is true for mtb.
I would say that is definitely true of MTB and it generally portrays as a very lads environment. The side of it I dislike.
Not sure that is true for other cycling though and it doesn't always have to be a group activity but guess many people need a group to join to start with.
kerley
See, I said don’t mention horses…
Exactly as you don't want anything to show how pointless trying to balance participation in a sport based on gender is.
I wonder if safety is a concern to women? We've discussed a lot how women don't feel safe. If you are a runner you can go around your neighbourhood on your own and there (or can be) are plenty of other people about, and the roads have plenty of cars. Road cycling would be likely to involve much quieter roads and MTBing gets you out into the middle of the woods with no-one around.
trying to balance participation in a sport based on gender is.
Not trying to do that. How many times Steve?
Molgrips
Not trying to do that. How many times Steve?
Once again I'm not saying YOU are....
Did you read the Ontario paper ???
When YOU are told YOU eat meat as a man because you are socially conditioned to do you not think there is a religion/agenda behind this or does that just slip by?
Ffs Steve, are you damn well deliberately trying to misread what people type..!?
I have not once, not ever, said men only eat meat because its manly. What I said was that there was a societal construct that perceived eating meat as manly/masculine, which has been borne out by numerous studies.
Read people's posts properly before deciding to spew out your ridiculous stream-of-consciousness posts and people might, just might, not think you're a complete and utter weapon, and might listen to what you have to say. 🤦♂️
Ffs Steve, are you damn well deliberately trying to misread what people type..!?
Don't feed it is my approach.
Well, what if I feed it a vegan meat-substitute..? 🤔😂
Also: https://experiment.com/u/zPWRw
Tl:dr
Finding:Men routinely incorporate red meat to preempt the negative emotional states caused by threats to masculinity.