[Closed] The start of mountain biking...not in the USA?

Mmmm interesting, I was hoping to hear a few good anecdotal tales of mad frenchman careering down hills with nothing but an onion on their head & bagettes for pads - maybe a story about some Aussie using croc skin for brake pads as well.

But for me the origin of the sport as we know it today was in Marin. I wont deny that others were doing it long before but the take on it was different.

What are you trying to say? there's a minimum tyre width to be a MTB?

For interest they rode their bikes up as well as down but for those who havent been to this site its worth a look [url= http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbwelcome.htm ]Fat Tyre[/url]

people were riding bicycles off-road in the UK in the late 1800s

in 1896 the Buffalo soldiers in America use specifically adapted bicycles to ride off road from Montana to Yellowstone and back

who invented "mountain biking?" irrelevant...

who "commercialized it"? probably Mike Sinyard of Specialized who took the ideas of the custom bike builders in California and made the first affordable production mountain bike, the Specialized Stumpjumper in 1982

Explain that one for me jedi. I would like to know your reasoning behind that train of thought

The "they marketed it not invented it" train of thought is 100% correct.

Personally, I first started off road cycling in the 1960's. The premise then was that you built a bike from bits purloined from anywhere you could get them. Generally a robust steel frame, with the biggest heaviest wheels you could wedge into the frame. If you found a "trade bike" (one with a whapping great basket on the front) you were in clover because the rear wheel was mega. Quite often we would use components from various light motor bikes and mobylettes to beef the thing up further. For example I had a set of swinging arm suspension forks off an old military motorbike that worked well albeit as heavy as sin. Usually we'd operate with a rear brake only, single speed with a 48 tooth single chain ring at the front and a 24 tooth rear freewheel. As stated elsewhere knobblies were about, but we actually bought ours second hand from the cycle speedway boys. Can't remember the name of the brand though. We just followed on from the older lads and hooned about wherever we could with our cow horns, sometimes canadian bend (think mary bar stylee) and later on ape hanger bars.

We no more invented it than the yanks did. They commercialised it, we didn't. Different thing altogether. Actually had British Cycling been a bit less up themselves in those days and opened their eyes to the fact that everywhere you went there were scrotes like me roaring about off road, we probably could have claimed the invention and also the commercial success that followed on, but we were too rough and ready for the guys at the top to take any notice. HUGE mistake!!

oldgit, I give up.

We no more invented it than the yanks did

Still refute that - a bike with triple is completely different to yours.

Ahh memories. Got a piccy somewhere I'm wearing a 1974 UCLA teeshirt that dates the picture. The bikes a 26" wheeled steel frame, with the custom straightened forks, wide alloy rims, speedway knoblies, singlespeed freewheel, Canadian cowhorns - no grips, just taped up and a single brake. Finished in Aifix Electric Blue.

Personally, I first started off road cycling in the 1960's. The premise then was that you built a bike from bits purloined from anywhere you could get them. Generally a robust steel frame, with the biggest heaviest wheels you could wedge into the frame. If you found a "trade bike" (one with a whapping great basket on the front) you were in clover because the rear wheel was mega. Quite often we would use components from various light motor bikes and mobylettes to beef the thing up further. For example I had a set of swinging arm suspension forks off an old military motorbike that worked well albeit as heavy as sin. Usually we'd operate with a rear brake only, single speed with a 48 tooth single chain ring at the front and a 24 tooth rear freewheel. As stated elsewhere knobblies were about, but we actually bought ours second hand from the cycle speedway boys. Can't remember the name of the brand though. We just followed on from the older lads and hooned about wherever we could with our cow horns, sometimes canadian bend (think mary bar stylee) and later on ape hanger bars.

Nice story - anymore?

the way i see this (not that i was around) is that ever since there were bicycles people were riding them offroad. the humble bicycle probably outdates the road really! fast forward a hundred years or so and you find people like berm bandit up there modifying their bikes to purposefully take them into the countryside, this was probably happening all over europe & the state etc, e.g. clunkers! for arguments sake they were mountain biking, but until the likes of GF etal started making their own frames that were actually specifically made for offroad leisure biking there were no mountain bikes. specialized made the first mass produced mtb and mountain biking as we know it has gone from there.

cynic-al - Member
oldgit, I give up.

We no more invented it than the yanks did
Still refute that - a bike with triple is completely different to yours.

So both state side and UK side there were people modifying the bikes they had / could find for the job of off road riding. Some people were producing custom bikes on boths sides of the pond, but the Americans had a triple and that is what make a MTB. Is that what you are saying?

Americans coined the term Mountain biking, Americans produced the first mass produced mountain bikes but they were not doing any type of riding that was not already being done. Nor were they doing anything new in the ways they were modifying bikes for off road. Bike had been modified with flat bars, bigger tyres brakes over both sides for ages. It is simply a case of the economics over in the US allowed a mass produce MTB to be made, sold and marketed.

Mountainbiking came from two main directions. The downhill racers of marin county and the like with their clunkers and as Charlie Kelly himself aknowledged the RSF boys in the UK. My dad rode a flat barred single speed 29r over black sale pass in the 50s

The modern mountainbike was not a single invention. It was a product of continuous development. Some of it in the UK by a chap called [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Apps ]Geoff Apps[/url] He shared ideas with the Marin county folk.

but the Americans had a triple and that is what make a MTB. Is that what you are saying?

I've said it's a combination of things that makes theirs the first "mountainbike" - triples along with custom made frames seem to be key, no one is saying anyone else did either.

I had a converted bike way back before mountainbikes. road race frame, wide ratio gears, inverted raised cut off drops, cyclocross tyres

Earlier than that I had a singlespeed with cowhorns and chunky wheels and tyres. Sort of touring / cyclespeedway mix taht was - mid 70s. Used for a bit of dirt jumping and general hooning around on trails

Al - read the wiki link I put above.

So there we go. It was TJ that invented the mountain bike. 😀

My dad acually - 🙂 Although he was following in the footsteps of the RSF boys.

The point is there is no one person / time / place that the modern MTB was "invented" It is the product of development over the years. Read the stuff on Geoff Apps and the links with the marin county boys.

TandemJeremy - Member
road race frame...cyclocross tyres

Incompatable.

The Cleland/Highpath stuff was all uprighty was it not? And so quite different to Marin & what we ride today.

I would, but I don't actually care.

I invented mountain biking. For me, at least. I rode my Falcon 6 speed over the South Downs. I tacoed the wheel on it one day and went into the bike shop and they had a bike specially made for what I wanted to do called a "mountain bike". To be honest, if there wasn't one there I would have bought something else, just not as suitable. No one showed me a mountain bike and said: "hey, we've invented mountain biking, want to give it a go?"

al - did you read the links? Charlie kelly aknowledges Apps role in it all - marin county bikes were nothing like we ride today either. Hiogh bars on the marin bikes etc

And how are my tyres on my bike incompatible. I know what it is. When I got it it was full campag record reynolds 531 running tubs. I put knobbly cyclocross tubs on it.

[url= ]One of the less extreme areas of Blacksail pass[/url]

My dad rode a flat barred single speed 29r over black sale pass in the 50s

No disrespect TJ, but I'll bet you a very large amount of money that he didn't. Pretty sure that no one ever is going to ride a single speed over Black Sail pass. They might carry it up some of the way and push it the rest, and ride it down, but ride the pass?? I don't think so.

I've said it's a combination of things that makes theirs the first "mountainbike" - triples along with custom made frames seem to be key, no one is saying anyone else did either.

What is a triple??

Regarding frames, take a look at the early "MTB" frames, I don't think you will find that they are recognisable as an MTB frame as we now know it.

The present day MTB is no more like the original products made by Specialized than what I used to build is. Basically all they did is beef up a road bike a bit and call it a mountain bike. The major innovation that liberated the concept is in my book the adaptation of the hydraulic disc brake to a pedal cycle. Thats quite recent in the history of the concept.

What was a big innovation was making the pirate offraod scene into a legit thing for "respectable people" to do.

Fair enough. He took his bike over it for sure.

I've seen those bikes TJ, Charly Kelly is WRONG, and you are also:

[img] ?1249244336[/img]

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A British mountain bike? I present to you the Range Rider developed by a bloke called Geoff Apps. It was even a 29er so niche enough for this forum.

Cross tyres were skinny then. My 1975 crosser wouldnt take 35mm jobs.

Al - if charlie kelly, Gary Fisher and Joe Breeze all aknowledge the role of Geoff Apps in the development of the modern mountainbike that is good enough for me.

However cynic al clearly knows beter than therse early pioneers.

As I said earlier there is no one person invented the mountainbike. It was developed over years by numerous people all swapping ideas.

http://www.mtnbikehalloffame.com/page.cfm?pageid=13665

Epicyclo (and TJ--sort of) are pretty much spot on above: if you read any of the big cycling magazines between the wars a large part of their focus is on exactly the kind of riding that we now associate with mountain biking. There's an interest in hill climbing, off-road touring and exploring all the trails that run through areas like the Peak District and so on. Think about it in the context of the increasing popularity of walking and rambling between the wars and the activist politics that informed the Kinder Trespass and it all begins to make sense. It isn't just the RSF or a few isolated groups that are into riding off road (often on exactly the same bridleways that we follow). It's a mainstream part of the culture of cycling between the wars. For sure, you can argue about the distinctions between the origins of mountain biking and the origins of the mountain bike--but to my mind the origins of what we do have a far longer history in this kind of activity. After all, the riders and the bikes in the photographs in some of those very earlier mountain bikes look very similar indeed to the guys riding between the wars. And it's the spirit of riding off-road and exploring the wilds--rather than necessarily seeking the thrills of bombing downhill--that were most prominent then.

I'll take my historian hat off now.

a bike with triple is completely different to yours. [.quote]
True it's generally not a mtb. Mine only has 2 chain ring 😉
Plus as said it was a French invention in the 40 50's where blokes where putting gears and suspension on bike to be able to ride them down the hill or do the show between races during enduro stuff...
Don't believe the hype al. After all what is more important for a modern mtb useless 2 ring or a front fork 😉

 

Jeez TJ I was kidding. Bet I could have kept you going for a while yet though.

Fair enough. He took his bike over it for sure.

No question TJ, but you'd have some whipper snapper like this

Nice story - anymore?

Dont be so asinine - of cause not & you know exactly what I meant by fat tyre.

how very dare you!
I honestly don't know what you were implying by trying to get me to accept your rule that "most mtbs have "fat tyres". WTF are you calling a fat tyre anyway? in my book it'd be a mahoosive tyre for a fat bike, no?
26" MTBs are shod with anything from 1" to 4" wide tyres, no matter what width tyres you fit, they are still mountainbikes.

they are still mountainbikes.

apparently not, they have to be made in america and have a triple... whatever that is

Dont be so asinine - of cause not & you know exactly what I meant by fat tyre.

Not much doubt that this is American (with a nod to Alaska to be accurate)
[img] http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=437854&stc=1&d=1236379339 [/img]

......waits for someone to disagree and say it was really the Belgians racing across sand dunes.........................

I present to you the Range Rider developed by a bloke called Geoff Apps. It was even a 29er so niche enough for this forum.

triple is a triple ring -

Fair enough, just couldn't believe anyone would be wally enough to have that as a qualifying criteria for a bike to be preceded by the word mountain. Thought I must be the one that was losing the plot, but apparently not then.

On reflection, I think the true mountain bike has only just been invented.

By who? The guys in Alaska riding round on 4" wide tyres. Finally a bike you can ride on soggy tracks without wrecking them. That the fatbikes also mop up technical stuff like it's not there is also a major improvement.

Gradually being made more mainstream by Surly (Pugsley) and Salsa (Mukluk) as well as a host of small specialist builders.

Advances in gearing systems and brakes are just evolutionary changes and not necessarily improvements.

how very dare you!
I honestly don't know what you were implying by trying to get me to accept your rule that "most mtbs have "fat tyres". WTF are you calling a fat tyre anyway? in my book it'd be a mahoosive tyre for a fat bike, no?
26" MTBs are shod with anything from 1" to 4" wide tyres, no matter what width tyres you fit, they are still mountainbikes.

Oh very well at least 6 ft wide & 4ft high..

Its a turn of phrase used to describe modern mtbs, as opposed to cross bikes or road bikes etc..I think you took me too literally, if you cant see that then I cant help.

FYI my bikes have 2.25 (I dont call that particularly fat but Im sure you have an opinion on them..)

My bike is phat.

The modern mountain bike as we know it was first developed on a large(ish) scale by some folk in the USA.

End of.

Do you not remember MTBs suddenly turning up in all the shops and on roads one year?

I present to you the Range Rider developed by a bloke called Geoff Apps. It was even a 29er so niche enough for this forum.

not titanium - FAIL

Fail? Oh I don't know. It had what would be regarded as alt bars today and the later models even had hub gears. It also appears to have more than one top tube. Like all true modern 29ers Geoff Apps also had trouble getting hold of suitable tyres.

A man truly ahead of his time. Possibly even the first STWer 😉

The USA invented racing down fireroads....RePack, Mammoth etc.

Much like the invention of VTOL and Supersonic passenger travel, its not the invention that really matters it is the commercialisation. the yanks are better at that than we are. The end.......

We have better ideas though... 😉

But Geoff ran the Wendover Bash - at least as early as 1983 - which had a downhill race in it (as well as trials). He was making proper offroad bikes before then, the Range Rider, the Cleland and, now, the Aventura. He still rides off road by the way. He was doing this before the Americans, the difference IMO was that the Americans caught the imagination of the masses and so the bikes went into mass production. Geoff was a one-man band with little or no resources.

David W-S started making the Highpath a little later. I rode part of the SDW on his wife's Highpath. A different riding position from the arse-up/head down favoured by the mainstream. I didn't particularly like that position (of the Highpath/Cleland), although I absolutely do see the point of it, and its advantages. They had hub brakes, some had derailleur gears and some hub gears, some with egg rings (but with the ellipse orientated 45 deg (I think) past Shimano's biopace).

Berm Bandit - Member
Much like the invention of VTOL and Supersonic passenger travel, its not the invention that really matters it is the commercialisation. the yanks are better at that than we are. The end.......

We have better ideas though...

Completely different economic situation in the USA at the time so mass production and marketing is going to take off better over there

I think there's an important distinction here that's being missed by the majority of posters.

Mountain biking wasn't invented. It's taken place all over the world since the invention of the bike. Some people even adapted or made bikes to suit this style of riding.

THE mountain bike was invented by some Americans in Marin county. They coined the name for their brand of bike, and due to location and time it was picked up by the masses, spreading round the world. All those people who were already "mountain biking" suddenly had access to bikes pre made suitable for the job.

It was kind of what I was getting at with my original post. I don't mountain bike because of the repack riders, I was doing it before I heard of them, but I ride a mountain bike that is decended from what they produced as it's the tool for the job.

In short, the mountain bike was invented in America. Mountain biking and off road cycling was not.

Tree - nor was the mountainbike "invented in one place at one time" it was a process of development in many places by many people

Nope. The name "Mountain bike" was initialy applied to one product. I forget who it was now, I think Ritchey.

I'd never heard of Geoff Apps before and I was an earlyish acolyte of (1986/1987) mountain biking

[url= http://clelandcycles.wordpress.com/history/ ]Interesting stuff on Geoff Apps and Cleland bikes[/url]

I have no doubt that mountain biking as we understand it, especially the gnarr rad-dude wing is an American invention. They merchandised it, industrialised it and through the power of marketing proselytized it. Lets face it if it wasn't for American can-do-ism there'd be a few hundred mountain bikers in the UK paying £2000 for a 30lb bridleway blasters built by Geoff Apps and his ilk.