[Closed] The start of mountain biking...not in the USA?

mountain biking was marketed in the usa not invented

Great video. Good bit at about 2minutes with them throwing their bikes across the river. Also a fair few single speeds. Plus at about 6 minutes some old cars (Rover plus one other).

"mountain biking was marketed in the usa not invented "

I agree

that's a great video - it's like a mid week Ambrose ride in the west Beacons - they always encounter a carry and a river crossing 😉

great fun thanks for posting it up

Is that Roy Chubby Brown commentating 🙂

I'd say mountainbikes as we know them were invented in the USA in the late 70s.

Plenty say they did it when they were a kid etc but not (AFAIK) with triple chainsets, fat knobby tyres and flat bars - the essential ingredients of mtbs that make them much more capable than the "tourer my dad rode over the Peak on with the RSF" etc that inevitably gets trotted out on these threads.

The creation of the mtb (and subsequent marketing) is what created what we do today.

Tescos at kingston Park - ha ha

Thats just out West of Morpeth.

There was a piece in one of the bike magazines (I can't remember if it was MBR or MBUK) from about 10 years ago about a group of french chaps who baricated their own suspension on bikes and lashed it up and down hills in the late 40s or early 50s.

mountain biking was marketed in the usa not invented

Geoff Apps and others were independently developing something very similar to US MTB around the same time.

As ever what is claimed to be the history is by thoughts who make a bigger company, plenty of back room fettles on bikes with flat bars for a long time.

I work for a Japanese company & I am told by Japanese colleagues that they believe MTV was invented there! (via Shimano)

Don't really believe it but interesting to hear different ideas..

Plenty say they did it when they were a kid etc but not (AFAIK) with triple chainsets, fat knobby tyres and flat bars - the essential ingredients of mtbs that make them much more capable than the "tourer my dad rode over the Peak on with the RSF" etc that inevitably gets trotted out on these threads.

The creation of the mtb (and subsequent marketing) is what created what we do today.

is this more about trying to separate what you do, from what a group of unfashionable riders were doing for years

for me it's still riding trails in the mountains/ hills

I don't feel the need to inhabit a marketed niche to separate me from other people who ride bikes on the same trails (all be it not cool enough to create the hype to create a "lifestyle")

There was a piece in one of the bike magazines (I can't remember if it was MBR or MBUK) from about 10 years ago about a group of french chaps who baricated their own suspension on bikes and lashed it up and down hills in the late 40s or early 50s.

mountain bikers? rough stuff riders? something else?

I imagine bikes were getting ridden up and down Alpine trails since the invention of the bike

the fact that their tyres weren't fat doesn't seem relevant to me, triple chainset's rely on derailiers which weren't around and bar shapes seem to similar for some (Mary, Mungo, Midge anyone)

Marge - Member
I work for a Japanese company & I am told by Japanese colleagues that they believe MTV was invented there! (via Shimano)

Im pretty sure that MTV was invented my americans

Don't really believe it but interesting to hear different ideas..

love that bit where he's talking about the referee

'he runs backwards down the road, he's been run over twice'

classic

Explain that one for me jedi. I would like to know your reasoning behind that train of thought.

I would imagine that if I took any bike off road, I would be considered to be mountain biking.
Taking that idea and designing and selling a specific piece of equipment for the task would, I consider, enter into the marketing world of creating and satidfying a need with the objective of selling something.

Can you give the precise moment that someone went offroad and decided that it was mountain biking? I think it is a bit rich that anyone claims to have invented mountain biking. The mountain bike, yes, would have needed to be invented, but mountain biking, NO!

Perhaps in the same vein, you could tell me who invented running?

Many people rode off road long before the late 70s. The dutch raced off road in the 50s iirc. Etc etc

The existence of a separate bike for off road riding was only possible once disposable income reached a high enough level to support an separate industry. If you could only afford one bike you will have a bike and do everything on it.

The USA was in a better economic situation to the UK in the 70s so it's not surprising that the MTB mass production took off there first and hence creating a industry rather than individuals in sheds all over the world..

That does not mean however that there were not plenty of other people all of the world tweaking bikes for off road use or riding their unmodified bike off road for a long time before hand.

Many people rode off road long before the late 70s. The dutch raced off road in the 50s iirc. Etc etc

I would imagine that if I took any bike off road, I would be considered to be mountain biking.
Taking that idea and designing and selling a specific piece of equipment for the task would, I consider, enter into the marketing world of creating and satidfying a need with the objective of selling something.

Can you give the precise moment that someone went offroad and decided that it was mountain biking? I think it is a bit rich that anyone claims to have invented mountain biking. The mountain bike, yes, would have needed to be invented, but mountain biking, NO!

Perhaps in the same vein, you could tell me who invented running?

Chill out Don - only asked for his opinion, no need to get punchy..

Sorry, didn't mean to start an argument. I just thought it was a interesting/funny video. 😉

As always, I'm perfectly chilled. 😆

RepacK - Member

Yep agree with that but I think if thats the case then nobody can claim to have started the sport. But if you look at the modern mtb & then look for its parents then you have to look to the US no?

but this is to do with the birth of the mass produced iff road bike no?

Yep agree with that but I think if thats the case then nobody can claim to have started the sport. But if you look at the modern mtb & then look for its parents then you have to look to the US no?

No.

mtbs don't have to have fat tyres and europeans rode straight(ish) handlebars off road before the Marin County lot (if that's who you were referring to).

No.

mtbs don't have to have fat tyres and europeans rode straight(ish) handlebars off road before the Marin County lot (if that's who you were referring to).

Ok, but you would accept that most modern mtbs have fat tyres?

but this is to do with the birth of the mass produced iff road bike no

If we are talking off-road riding then I dont think anyone can claim to have started the sport. If we mean mtbs as we know them now then clearly the most obvious progenitors are the bikes that were ridden in CA?

Surely the 'parent' of any form of modern bicycle is the Rover safety cycle?
Sorry to harp on, but as early as 73/74 we were converting 26" wheeled bikes for off road use. We even ordered knobbly tyres and Canadian cowhorns, which where in use in cycle speedway I think pre war. Gears were ditched, tripples werent common back then. We also had our forks straightened which gave you a nice high front end, they were basically what singlespeeds are today.

At around 4:35 the commentator actually says "there's Rob Atkinson from the Tyne Vale.....that must be the first of the mountain bikes his idea maybe... early 60's" or words to that effect when the straight bar bike is in shot.

Very interesting film and the referee is from Stanley, where I work !!! 😆

Ok, but you would accept that most modern mtbs have fat tyres?

I look at my 29er with its drop bars, and then I look at what was being used to cross Oz on dirt roads in the 1900s, and I can't see much difference. Fat tyres, single speed, but those guys were proper 'ard.

There's a book about that era "The Bicycle and the Bush" by Jim Fitzpatrick with loads of good photos of what could pass pass for a 29er.

I have quite a few CTC and bound cycling magazines from the late 1890s and early 1900s. Those guys were not averse to taking bikes up mountains and doing what we'd call mountain biking. Certainly more real mountain biking than what is going to happen in 2012.

In this country there is a long tradition of riding bikes in the mountains. We used to do it on drop bar 27" wheel bikes. Almost any cross country route you take your mtb on has been probably ridden by some old duffer on a fixed wheel and skinny tyres.

BTW great video link

Looking at that video I fail to see the connection to that and mountain biking.
Over in the USA they were DOWNHILLING bikes with fat tyres ie the birth of proper MTBing.
In the above vid there are a lot of running with roadie bikes in an offroad environment, not MTBing.

sputnik - Member
Looking at that video I fail to see the connection to that and mountain biking.
Over in the USA they were DOWNHILLING bikes with fat tyres ie the birth of proper MTBing.
In the above vid there are a lot of running with roadie bikes in an ofroad environment, not MTBing.

Otherwise it's just fat boys rolling downhill. 🙂

BTW the video is a cyclocross race.

Yes, I know it is a CX race, and the men in that vid are all well hard/ mental!
I am also a great lover of riding my bike up climbs and not much of a downhiller.
But I am realistic about what MTBing is and what riding a bicycle offroad is 🙂

Sorry to harp on, but as early as 73/74 we were converting 26" wheeled bikes for off road use. We even ordered knobbly tyres and Canadian cowhorns, which where in use in cycle speedway I think pre war. Gears were ditched, tripples werent common back then. We also had our forks straightened which gave you a nice high front end, they were basically what singlespeeds are today.

That's just your perspective. Mine is that mountain biking involves riding up the hill as well.

Otherwise it's just fat boys rolling downhill.

When was the first use of bikes with flat bars, fat knobby tyres and triples? - That is what a mountainbike is, to me (& ss evolved from that)

You have to remember that the bikes they used were standard stuff in the States, they had fat tyres anyway. Over here we were going to specialists for parts to make our bikes off road specific. They were rolling down hills we were riding singletrack!
No one invented it. They labeled something that many people had already done with bikes, thats all. As I said its origins are in the first safety cycle and peoples sense of adventure.

There is no dispute that bikes were being used offroad decades before they were supposedly 'invented'. My take was that it is the use of the term 'mountainbiking' which has been accredited to Americans, whereas we can hear quite clearly "that must have been the first of the mountainbikes" term being used in the film.

As the oldest guy in the race is 40 and this race was early/mid 60's, surely some of these guys will still be around.

it seems it's about not wanting your roots to be associated with the rather untrendy antic's of those who rode bikes every and anywhere long before Gary Fisher et al were even born

I also imagine that plenty of bikes were going off road in the states long before GF et al

surely the only difference is that GF KB etc started racing their bikes and then the technology arms race started which led to the industry we have now

No one invented it. They labeled something that many people had already done with bikes, thats all. As I said its origins are in the first safety cycle and peoples sense of adventure.

My point is that credit ought to be given to Fisher et al for creating/eveolving the bike into somethng so capable and user-friendly, whether you call that "inventing" or not....

They were rolling down hills we were riding singletrack!

I'm pretty sure they were riding singletrack also - up and down.

I wont argue that modern mountainbike design is very Statesside, but thats the bike. We're talkkng about mountainbiking. I would definately say that what we rode back then has more in common with certainly British mountainbikes.

don simon - Member
Perhaps in the same vein, you could tell me who invented running?

I think its pretty clear that a level of innovation and desire to push the technology and the type of terrain ridden happened in the USofA during the 70's, and then they pushed their ideas into an industry

I would definately say that what we rode back then has more in common with certainly British mountainbikes.

I'm not sure what you mean by that sentence, or "British Mountainbike".

I should have said singlespeeds or STW bikes i.e steel, rigid, singlespeeds. Rear mechs were either hopelessly expensive or just plain hopeless back then.
I'm not that sure that the first bikes used in the States had gears? and I think they were 'burley' just because American bikes were.
See we were building bikes specifically to take on the trail, the Americans were using what they had.
The major difference was the economy and geography. The UK was seeing a decline in bike sales and no one in that climate was ever going to be interested in taking a bike up a wet miserable Fell.
Hop over the pond and it's all sunshine and entrepreneurs. If it was ever going to kick off anywhere it would be there.
I would also imagine that the very strong British club culture back then kept most people happy, with the majority of British cyclists either racing or touring.

I'm not that sure that the first bikes used in the States had gears? and I think they were 'burley' just because American bikes were.
See we were building bikes specifically to take on the trail, the Americans were using what they had.

Not at all AFAIK. They were using parts from different parts to create what they used. eg drum brakes, and yes, triples - perhaps Repack can confirm?

Actually yes you have something there. The picture they paint is that they used everyday bikes. Though you mentioned drum brakes, I seem to recall motorbike brakes being used.

In many ways you could say we've never discovered mountainbiking over here 😕

Actually yes you have something there. The picture they paint is that they used everyday bikes. Though you mentioned drum brakes, I seem to recall motorbike brakes being used.

In many ways you could say we've never discovered mountainbiking over here 😕

Mmmm interesting, I was hoping to hear a few good anecdotal tales of mad frenchman careering down hills with nothing but an onion on their head & bagettes for pads - maybe a story about some Aussie using croc skin for brake pads as well.

But for me the origin of the sport as we know it today was in Marin. I wont deny that others were doing it long before but the take on it was different.

What are you trying to say? there's a minimum tyre width to be a MTB?

For interest they rode their bikes up as well as down but for those who havent been to this site its worth a look [url= http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbwelcome.htm ]Fat Tyre[/url]

people were riding bicycles off-road in the UK in the late 1800s

in 1896 the Buffalo soldiers in America use specifically adapted bicycles to ride off road from Montana to Yellowstone and back

who invented "mountain biking?" irrelevant...

who "commercialized it"? probably Mike Sinyard of Specialized who took the ideas of the custom bike builders in California and made the first affordable production mountain bike, the Specialized Stumpjumper in 1982

Explain that one for me jedi. I would like to know your reasoning behind that train of thought

The "they marketed it not invented it" train of thought is 100% correct.

Personally, I first started off road cycling in the 1960's. The premise then was that you built a bike from bits purloined from anywhere you could get them. Generally a robust steel frame, with the biggest heaviest wheels you could wedge into the frame. If you found a "trade bike" (one with a whapping great basket on the front) you were in clover because the rear wheel was mega. Quite often we would use components from various light motor bikes and mobylettes to beef the thing up further. For example I had a set of swinging arm suspension forks off an old military motorbike that worked well albeit as heavy as sin. Usually we'd operate with a rear brake only, single speed with a 48 tooth single chain ring at the front and a 24 tooth rear freewheel. As stated elsewhere knobblies were about, but we actually bought ours second hand from the cycle speedway boys. Can't remember the name of the brand though. We just followed on from the older lads and hooned about wherever we could with our cow horns, sometimes canadian bend (think mary bar stylee) and later on ape hanger bars.

We no more invented it than the yanks did. They commercialised it, we didn't. Different thing altogether. Actually had British Cycling been a bit less up themselves in those days and opened their eyes to the fact that everywhere you went there were scrotes like me roaring about off road, we probably could have claimed the invention and also the commercial success that followed on, but we were too rough and ready for the guys at the top to take any notice. HUGE mistake!!

oldgit, I give up.

We no more invented it than the yanks did

Still refute that - a bike with triple is completely different to yours.

Ahh memories. Got a piccy somewhere I'm wearing a 1974 UCLA teeshirt that dates the picture. The bikes a 26" wheeled steel frame, with the custom straightened forks, wide alloy rims, speedway knoblies, singlespeed freewheel, Canadian cowhorns - no grips, just taped up and a single brake. Finished in Aifix Electric Blue.

Personally, I first started off road cycling in the 1960's. The premise then was that you built a bike from bits purloined from anywhere you could get them. Generally a robust steel frame, with the biggest heaviest wheels you could wedge into the frame. If you found a "trade bike" (one with a whapping great basket on the front) you were in clover because the rear wheel was mega. Quite often we would use components from various light motor bikes and mobylettes to beef the thing up further. For example I had a set of swinging arm suspension forks off an old military motorbike that worked well albeit as heavy as sin. Usually we'd operate with a rear brake only, single speed with a 48 tooth single chain ring at the front and a 24 tooth rear freewheel. As stated elsewhere knobblies were about, but we actually bought ours second hand from the cycle speedway boys. Can't remember the name of the brand though. We just followed on from the older lads and hooned about wherever we could with our cow horns, sometimes canadian bend (think mary bar stylee) and later on ape hanger bars.

Nice story - anymore?

the way i see this (not that i was around) is that ever since there were bicycles people were riding them offroad. the humble bicycle probably outdates the road really! fast forward a hundred years or so and you find people like berm bandit up there modifying their bikes to purposefully take them into the countryside, this was probably happening all over europe & the state etc, e.g. clunkers! for arguments sake they were mountain biking, but until the likes of GF etal started making their own frames that were actually specifically made for offroad leisure biking there were no mountain bikes. specialized made the first mass produced mtb and mountain biking as we know it has gone from there.

cynic-al - Member
oldgit, I give up.

We no more invented it than the yanks did
Still refute that - a bike with triple is completely different to yours.

So both state side and UK side there were people modifying the bikes they had / could find for the job of off road riding. Some people were producing custom bikes on boths sides of the pond, but the Americans had a triple and that is what make a MTB. Is that what you are saying?

Americans coined the term Mountain biking, Americans produced the first mass produced mountain bikes but they were not doing any type of riding that was not already being done. Nor were they doing anything new in the ways they were modifying bikes for off road. Bike had been modified with flat bars, bigger tyres brakes over both sides for ages. It is simply a case of the economics over in the US allowed a mass produce MTB to be made, sold and marketed.

Mountainbiking came from two main directions. The downhill racers of marin county and the like with their clunkers and as Charlie Kelly himself aknowledged the RSF boys in the UK. My dad rode a flat barred single speed 29r over black sale pass in the 50s

The modern mountainbike was not a single invention. It was a product of continuous development. Some of it in the UK by a chap called [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Apps ]Geoff Apps[/url] He shared ideas with the Marin county folk.

but the Americans had a triple and that is what make a MTB. Is that what you are saying?

I've said it's a combination of things that makes theirs the first "mountainbike" - triples along with custom made frames seem to be key, no one is saying anyone else did either.

I had a converted bike way back before mountainbikes. road race frame, wide ratio gears, inverted raised cut off drops, cyclocross tyres

Earlier than that I had a singlespeed with cowhorns and chunky wheels and tyres. Sort of touring / cyclespeedway mix taht was - mid 70s. Used for a bit of dirt jumping and general hooning around on trails

Al - read the wiki link I put above.

So there we go. It was TJ that invented the mountain bike. 😀

My dad acually - 🙂 Although he was following in the footsteps of the RSF boys.

The point is there is no one person / time / place that the modern MTB was "invented" It is the product of development over the years. Read the stuff on Geoff Apps and the links with the marin county boys.

TandemJeremy - Member
road race frame...cyclocross tyres

Incompatable.

The Cleland/Highpath stuff was all uprighty was it not? And so quite different to Marin & what we ride today.

I would, but I don't actually care.

I invented mountain biking. For me, at least. I rode my Falcon 6 speed over the South Downs. I tacoed the wheel on it one day and went into the bike shop and they had a bike specially made for what I wanted to do called a "mountain bike". To be honest, if there wasn't one there I would have bought something else, just not as suitable. No one showed me a mountain bike and said: "hey, we've invented mountain biking, want to give it a go?"

al - did you read the links? Charlie kelly aknowledges Apps role in it all - marin county bikes were nothing like we ride today either. Hiogh bars on the marin bikes etc

And how are my tyres on my bike incompatible. I know what it is. When I got it it was full campag record reynolds 531 running tubs. I put knobbly cyclocross tubs on it.

[url= ]One of the less extreme areas of Blacksail pass[/url]

My dad rode a flat barred single speed 29r over black sale pass in the 50s

No disrespect TJ, but I'll bet you a very large amount of money that he didn't. Pretty sure that no one ever is going to ride a single speed over Black Sail pass. They might carry it up some of the way and push it the rest, and ride it down, but ride the pass?? I don't think so.

I've said it's a combination of things that makes theirs the first "mountainbike" - triples along with custom made frames seem to be key, no one is saying anyone else did either.

What is a triple??

Regarding frames, take a look at the early "MTB" frames, I don't think you will find that they are recognisable as an MTB frame as we now know it.

The present day MTB is no more like the original products made by Specialized than what I used to build is. Basically all they did is beef up a road bike a bit and call it a mountain bike. The major innovation that liberated the concept is in my book the adaptation of the hydraulic disc brake to a pedal cycle. Thats quite recent in the history of the concept.

What was a big innovation was making the pirate offraod scene into a legit thing for "respectable people" to do.

Fair enough. He took his bike over it for sure.

I've seen those bikes TJ, Charly Kelly is WRONG, and you are also:

[img] ?1249244336[/img]

[img] [/img]

A British mountain bike? I present to you the Range Rider developed by a bloke called Geoff Apps. It was even a 29er so niche enough for this forum.

Cross tyres were skinny then. My 1975 crosser wouldnt take 35mm jobs.

Al - if charlie kelly, Gary Fisher and Joe Breeze all aknowledge the role of Geoff Apps in the development of the modern mountainbike that is good enough for me.

However cynic al clearly knows beter than therse early pioneers.

As I said earlier there is no one person invented the mountainbike. It was developed over years by numerous people all swapping ideas.

http://www.mtnbikehalloffame.com/page.cfm?pageid=13665

Epicyclo (and TJ--sort of) are pretty much spot on above: if you read any of the big cycling magazines between the wars a large part of their focus is on exactly the kind of riding that we now associate with mountain biking. There's an interest in hill climbing, off-road touring and exploring all the trails that run through areas like the Peak District and so on. Think about it in the context of the increasing popularity of walking and rambling between the wars and the activist politics that informed the Kinder Trespass and it all begins to make sense. It isn't just the RSF or a few isolated groups that are into riding off road (often on exactly the same bridleways that we follow). It's a mainstream part of the culture of cycling between the wars. For sure, you can argue about the distinctions between the origins of mountain biking and the origins of the mountain bike--but to my mind the origins of what we do have a far longer history in this kind of activity. After all, the riders and the bikes in the photographs in some of those very earlier mountain bikes look very similar indeed to the guys riding between the wars. And it's the spirit of riding off-road and exploring the wilds--rather than necessarily seeking the thrills of bombing downhill--that were most prominent then.

I'll take my historian hat off now.

a bike with triple is completely different to yours. [.quote]
True it's generally not a mtb. Mine only has 2 chain ring 😉
Plus as said it was a French invention in the 40 50's where blokes where putting gears and suspension on bike to be able to ride them down the hill or do the show between races during enduro stuff...
Don't believe the hype al. After all what is more important for a modern mtb useless 2 ring or a front fork 😉

 

Jeez TJ I was kidding. Bet I could have kept you going for a while yet though.

Fair enough. He took his bike over it for sure.

No question TJ, but you'd have some whipper snapper like this

Nice story - anymore?

Dont be so asinine - of cause not & you know exactly what I meant by fat tyre.

how very dare you!
I honestly don't know what you were implying by trying to get me to accept your rule that "most mtbs have "fat tyres". WTF are you calling a fat tyre anyway? in my book it'd be a mahoosive tyre for a fat bike, no?
26" MTBs are shod with anything from 1" to 4" wide tyres, no matter what width tyres you fit, they are still mountainbikes.

they are still mountainbikes.

apparently not, they have to be made in america and have a triple... whatever that is

Dont be so asinine - of cause not & you know exactly what I meant by fat tyre.

Not much doubt that this is American (with a nod to Alaska to be accurate)
[img] http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=437854&stc=1&d=1236379339 [/img]

......waits for someone to disagree and say it was really the Belgians racing across sand dunes.........................

I present to you the Range Rider developed by a bloke called Geoff Apps. It was even a 29er so niche enough for this forum.

triple is a triple ring -

Fair enough, just couldn't believe anyone would be wally enough to have that as a qualifying criteria for a bike to be preceded by the word mountain. Thought I must be the one that was losing the plot, but apparently not then.

On reflection, I think the true mountain bike has only just been invented.

By who? The guys in Alaska riding round on 4" wide tyres. Finally a bike you can ride on soggy tracks without wrecking them. That the fatbikes also mop up technical stuff like it's not there is also a major improvement.

Gradually being made more mainstream by Surly (Pugsley) and Salsa (Mukluk) as well as a host of small specialist builders.

Advances in gearing systems and brakes are just evolutionary changes and not necessarily improvements.

how very dare you!
I honestly don't know what you were implying by trying to get me to accept your rule that "most mtbs have "fat tyres". WTF are you calling a fat tyre anyway? in my book it'd be a mahoosive tyre for a fat bike, no?
26" MTBs are shod with anything from 1" to 4" wide tyres, no matter what width tyres you fit, they are still mountainbikes.

Oh very well at least 6 ft wide & 4ft high..

Its a turn of phrase used to describe modern mtbs, as opposed to cross bikes or road bikes etc..I think you took me too literally, if you cant see that then I cant help.

FYI my bikes have 2.25 (I dont call that particularly fat but Im sure you have an opinion on them..)

My bike is phat.