Forum menu
Agree, but has anyone noticed that the older trails don’t flow as well on modern bikes? They seem to be quite tight and twisty as if they were created for slower speeds on 26 inch XC bikes with 80mm travel…
I need to get the tankeresque Rail to Drumlanrig to investigate!
Anyone citing the RSF as an objection to this would do better to look at gravel riding.
Nah, not really, IMO. I started in 1992 so I have a reasonably long perspective on this. Back then there was one style of MTB, that was directly derived from the Californians, however the people riding them came from different threads. I used to ride with young people (as I was at the time) who were thrill seeking on bikes just because we'd seen the bikes and it looked cool. But there were many other existing 'outdoorsy' people who'd always been out in the hills, and seen MTBs and thought that they could ride around their mountains and hills on the same bikes. So these quite different groups were largely inspired by the sudden prevalence of the bikes, which was directly attributable to the Californians again.
I remember seeing MTBs for the first time around my local small town, probably late 80s, being ridden to shops and things, and my Dad and I were amazed as they looked really different. That prompted the 'what's that?' type of conversation, and the subsequent investigation/purchase of magazines and whatnot which showed me that MTBing was a thing. I'd never heard of the RSF at that point. I don't think many people had. It's possible that some of the outdoorsy people who bought MTBs as they became available had, but I'm not sure as I'd never heard it mentioned until much later.
Mainstream gravel bikes came about as an entirely separate thread of development, much later, based on a type of riding we don't really have in the UK. Those bikes then came to be used for the kind of riding that the outdoors people were doing on their MTBs, but you can't claim a continuous thread of development from RSF. The presence of bikes in shops and consequently out on the streets/trails is a key driver for the sport, in my opinion, which is why we are MTBing and gravel riding instead of 'riding rough stuff'.
Agree, but has anyone noticed that the older trails don’t flow as well on modern bikes?
Maybe I've got better (spoiler: I definitely have), but I find CyB more flowy and fun than ever now.
Easier though - and with more potential to crash onto rocks at speed, like I did on Beginning of the End last year.
It’s the birth of the British trail centre and so the full package of MTB as a self-contained sport. Now it’s hard to imagine MTB without trail centres.
But hasn't that 'compartmentalised' the sport, and taken it away from its 'explore the wilderness' original ethos though? Having to travel somewhere (by car, invariably) to ride off road kind of defeats the object, for me at least.
you can’t claim a continuous thread of development from RSF.
I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing. But the actual activities and the mindset are remarkably similar.
But hasn’t that ‘compartmentalised’ the sport, and taken it away from its ‘explore the wilderness’ original ethos though?
Riding at trail centres is a bit of a niche activity now though.
It's all about the off-piste tracks these days innit.
TBH, I thought the answer to this question was "Swinley" and "any Sunday Morning"
In terms of equipment, for me, MTBing became a 'thing' in the mid 80s, when brands such as Muddy Fox appeared. Back then, it was all about MF and Saracen, then 'US' brands such as Specialized, Marin and Cannondale started appearing. The fat alloy tubing of Cannondales was radically different to anything seen before. That's when cycling became 'sexy'. Racers were something your dad might have once ridden. The 'go anywhere' nature of MTBs proved to be a massive draw, and MTBs outsold all other type of bicycle combined. Kids like myself, who'd grown up with BMX, had a natural transition to a 'proper' bike that offered the same kind of escape and freedom our BMXs did.
It's now seen largely as a sport enjoyed by middle aged men. Somewhere along the line, the 'sexy' got lost.
Mainstream gravel bikes came about as an entirely separate thread of development, much later, based on a type of riding we don’t really have in the UK.
What, cyclocross? ; )
Somewhere along the line, the ‘sexy’ got lost.
You're saying we need to bring sexy back then?
Was thinking about whether Rampage has the same effect on kids getting into riding now as Kranked 1+2 had in the late 90s. There's always been a gap between what the better local riders do and the extremes of what we see in magazines or on VHS, youtube or Red Bull TV yet it seems like that gap has stayed similar as the extremes have gone as far as the 70ft+ drops etc, like the good locals are doing stuff that's (say) 50% of the biggest we know of at the time, but I'm not sure. Does it have the same effect because that gap is a constant, or does it progress further via a smaller and smaller pool of riders and thf get more distant to the majority?
I know how I see it... but I'm 20+ years past having any bottle for that sort of thing and it was a fairly small bottle to begin with.
But hasn’t that ‘compartmentalised’ the sport, and taken it away from its ‘explore the wilderness’ original ethos though? Having to travel somewhere (by car, invariably) to ride off road kind of defeats the object, for me at least.
There's not much in the way of wilderness in the UK really, the vast majority of us would need to drive somewhere to get away from civilisation, so no. And IME, trail centres were the gateway drug for many of us, showing us what we could do, and then move on to exploring further afield, or indeed on our own doorstep.
Agree, but has anyone noticed that the older trails don’t flow as well on modern bikes?
I was there a few weeks back for a few days, think I did every trail, on my modern bike (although in fairness it isn't an enduro race weapon, its a LLS 27.5 trail bike). Few points where I lost a bit of momentum or stalled would only be improved possibly by bigger wheels and more travel - or me looking further ahead!.
There was possibly one uphill switchback where a 80mm hardtail with idiotic roadie geo would have been better suited. And definitley a few places on snap crackle and pop where such a bike would have hospitalised me. The other 99% of the rides, I don't think I could have asked for much more.
Tubeless tyres - 1 puncture in 3 days, quickly repaired with a worm
Dropper - for obvious reasons
Full suspension - balanced and being able to push into rough/rocky berms, good climbing on loose surfaces
Modern brakes - 3 days of riding in the pissing wet, no adjustments, same pads which are still going strong now
There is no way I would want to go back to a late 90s hardtail for any reason
Agree, but has anyone noticed that the older trails don’t flow as well on modern bikes? They seem to be quite tight and twisty as if they were created for slower speeds on 26 inch XC bikes with 80mm travel…
Or perhaps bigger wheeled bikes aren’t as agile as smaller wheeled bikes..
There’s not much in the way of wilderness in the UK really, the vast majority of us would need to drive somewhere to get away from civilisation, so no
By 'wilderness' it means 'countryside', I'm assuming, not your actual 'wilderness, we need bear bells, survival bags and dried food'. More, have I got a snack because I may be 30 minutes ride from a skinny latte and slab of coffee and walnut cake?
It’s now seen largely as a sport enjoyed by middle aged men. Somewhere along the line, the ‘sexy’ got lost.
Dunno about it ever being sexy but I think I know what you're getting at. MTB was just a simpler, newer thing back then. It got more nerdy and techy - I think the product interest was always there but you can get deeper into the geekery now. Back to the OP point the North Shore thing happened when so many bikes were still on V-brakes, hardtails had a place in extreme riding and the Z1 was ground-breaking suspension. It might have felt more accessible, even if not quite as affordable as we might remember (Z1s were a £650 fork in today's money).
Dunno about it ever being sexy
Did the Bikerfox picture not render properly on your device?
This forum is so shonky these days.
It got more nerdy and techy – I think the product interest was always there but you can get deeper into the geekery now
you can go deeper as the knowledge and tech has progressed, but the nerdiness has always been there
but go back in time to any point in the internet era*, and you'll find arguments about:
2.1 vs 2.25 tyres
wheel lacing patterns
riser vs flat bar
cable vs hydro
quick release vs bolt through
freeride vs all mountain
2x vs 3x
choose a blank, and be a dick about it
*and probably before too, but lost to the depths of time
Whoever killed off trailquest
There’s not much in the way of wilderness in the UK really, the vast majority of us would need to drive somewhere to get away from civilisation, so no.
As mid-teenagers we used to ride 7-10 miles to the woods on road to go biking for a couple of hours then ride home. The appeal of the ATB at first was being able to access what felt like the real outdoors as well as the riding when we got there. Not an option if you live in a bigger city but perhaps an option for more people if we went back in time RE what made a worthwhile ride.
I think the specialism of bikes away from ATBs to FS MTBs, and trail centres, influenced MTB to be a destination thing for many. Driving to a place that justifies the bike, etc. It changed because of the expectations of what we could do and what was exciting.
I think that's why gravel and bikepacking has been influential. It's shown people that adventure is easy to find and separated riding off-road from the tech/extreme interest that is so much of MTB now.
you can go deeper as the knowledge and tech has progressed, but the nerdiness has always been there
but go back in time to any point in the internet era*, and you’ll find arguments about:
2.1 vs 2.25 tyres
wheel lacing patterns
riser vs flat bar
cable vs hydro
quick release vs bolt through
freeride vs all mountain
2x vs 3xchoose a blank, and be a dick about it
So true. "my arms are all the suspension I need...". So I reckon the proportion of retrogrouches to tech nerds in bikes has probably stayed about the same?
I'd say the level of knowledge that MTB is seen to ask of us has gone up as the product tech has gone up, or it's got harder to aspire to being self-sufficient as a mechanic that it was early 90s, but yeah. Perhaps the nerdiness is a constant with blokes and hobbies.
Did the Bikerfox picture not render properly on your device?
Oh he did render on my device, but not in the euphemistic sense. I must have quite specific tastes that the fox doesn't quite reach.
Or perhaps bigger wheeled bikes aren’t as agile as smaller wheeled bikes..
Yeah, no.
I’d say the level of knowledge that MTB is seen to ask of us has gone up as the product tech has gone up, or it’s got harder to aspire to being self-sufficient as a mechanic that it was early 90s, but yeah. Perhaps the nerdiness is a constant with blokes and hobbies.
maybe not early 90s rigids with friction shifters - but once we were into the suspension and disc era, I'd argue things are better than ever.
having got over the fear that forums put in my head like DOT fluid will burn my flesh and bike paint off instantly, a fairly basic set of hand tools and youtube will fix/maintain most things these days.
Yeah, no.
How erudite of you.
🙄
Oh he did render on my device, but not in the euphemistic sense. I must have quite specific tastes that the fox doesn’t quite reach.
Haha.
I didn't mean "render on your device" as a euphemism, but if the cap fits.
😀
It looks bikerfox is hoping his style of cap fits each and every one of us : )
But hasn’t that ‘compartmentalised’ the sport, and taken it away from its ‘explore the wilderness’ original ethos though? Having to travel somewhere (by car, invariably) to ride off road kind of defeats the object, for me at least.
I was quite lucky I that when I found MTB I lived in the countryside, so for me at least MTB was a way of getting back to what I did as a kid but with a bike that was purposed designed and didn't need fixing after every ride. Turned out they did need fixing after every ride, but it was still fun. I think because I've always driven to the mountains to walk, it was natural for me to still go there but by bike instead, (first trip was to Sugar Loaf and I was amazed to ride in a short morning what it would've taken me all day to walk) so I've never compartmentalised it like that. I remember going to CYB for the first time and genuinely being astonished that it was all "just for mountain bikers" and that was just the 8km? long Red Bull trail which was mostly double track.
didn’t gravel riding start as riding road bike of forest service roads and the unmade backroads of north america? The RSF carried touring bikes over mountains and rode them in remote and amazing places. completely different
CYB is great and was great and changed the direction of MTB in the UK, or opened up a new branch. though as far as global influence on mountain biking goes, it doesn’t compare to the north shore.
edit: in my opinion, of course.
The North shore heavily influenced mtb for sure
Back in the early 2000s I think was the time it all changed, suspension that really worked, and good 6-8 travel bikes became more common. Big hit, Kona, Patriot, Bullit etc.
I’d had a few Alps holidays in the 90s but it was much more fire roads and v brakes. Morzine around 2003 was a real eye opener, really buzzing and a completely new type of riding so I’d say the Alps in that time were pretty influential.
One thing this thread shows is how diverse we all are
i came to mountainbikes in the mid 80s. I had ridden offroad in a RSF style since the mid 70s seeking out places to ride on a succession of modified bikes. We also did jumps using planks
My dad got an MTB to ride into the more remote munros - that was always a thing in scotland using bikes to access the hills
I had a shot on his and the key thing was a granny gear allowing steep stuff to be climbed so I got my own.
My bikes for me have always been tools to get to places =- yes a nice bit of singletrack is great but I have always been closer to RSF riding than Marin county. Indeed a Apps type bike would be far more suitable an anything the marin boys had for what I ride
for me the biggest innovation that really changed my riding was the very low gears available
The Stooges & MC5 can lay claim to the origins of punk. Dont know if they ever rode bikes in California. Probably had a a few ramps in Detroit.
There's a pink bike podcast where RC argues that the sport evolved from an adventure sport (IE can I make it to this point on a map) to an action sport (let's do this bespoke trail with berms and jumps). Hard to argue with that, and maybe gravel is an opportunity to have the original adventure back.
The shift to trail centres in the uk seems to mimic that change, as do some of the views on this thread. The north shore was organised trail building maybe a decade ahead of the Welsh trail centres, and definitely more progressive in style
The Stooges & MC5 can lay claim to the origins of punk.
You forgot The Sonics.
Dunno about it ever being sexy but I think I know what you’re getting at. MTB was just a simpler, newer thing back then. It got more nerdy and techy – I think the product interest was always there but you can get deeper into the geekery now.
By 'sexy', I mean it was very popular with younger people, and had a much 'cooler' image. A mountain bike was THE thing to have for a while, back then. A Muddy Fox with the MF logo wheel discs was the pinnacle of cool. But MTBing is now seen mainly as a sport enjoyed by middle aged men who like to dress up in 'rugged' gear at weekends. It's definitely no longer 'cool'. And I think this has a lot to do with that 'compartmentalisation' of the sport; back in the day, all you needed was a mountain bike and you could go anywhere. Now, it's much more about dedicated trail centres, or Alpine resorts, rather than just riding wherever you want. The cool kids are all on fixies, vintage racers, e-bikes and scooters now. MTBs are 'over'.
“…top of the Fossway, Byker”
Now, it’s much more about dedicated trail centres, or Alpine resorts, rather than just riding wherever you want. The cool kids are all on fixies, vintage racers, e-bikes and scooters now. MTBs are ‘over’.
I'm not sure you're as in-touch with the MTB zeitgeist as you think you are.
There are more younger riders about now than I've seen for years, as I said before - it's all about off-piste tracks in the woods, not trail centres or the Alps.
For me 2003 single-track forum ride at gentress.rode northshore for the 1st time and started to build our own. Rampage for me showed what was possible too
Yay, @jedi is still around!
I remember that ride. 🙂
Agree with the comments about CyB and probably places like Glentress as well. A mix of capitalising on the new-found interest in MTBing and also driving it's growth. Varied "natural" riding where you know you're going to get a lot of value for money.
it’s all about off-piste tracks in the woods
Absolutely this. New stuff appearing weekly round here.
There’s a pink bike podcast where RC argues that the sport evolved from an adventure sport (IE can I make it to this point on a map) to an action sport (let’s do this bespoke trail with berms and jumps).
It was always both. As 18 year olds we did what 18 year olds are likely to do and we threw ourselves down trails as fast as we could, even as they were still 'natural' trails. But the older and the outdoorsy types were going out into the hills. And it still is.
I honestly think that the current era has seen some of the biggest changes. I think enduro racing has driven a lot of the changes.
Compare a 2010 trail bike to 2020 one. Apart from the origins of MTB I don't think any other period has seen such big changes in bike design.
I was along at Innerliethen on Sunday, it used to be completely dead unless there was a race on.
It was rammed. People on trail / enduro bikes using the uplift and riding stuff that would been seen as really challenging for average riders on "average" bikes 10 years ago.
Errmmm - unless you are racing its a pastime not a sport 🙂
“unless you are racing its a pastime not a sport 🙂”
You may think so, but as a physical activity it falls under the definitions of sport. It’s exercise which requires skill, which can be competitive (against the clock or others) if you so desire.
MTBs are ‘over’.
You need to go somewhere that has decent off road riding. In places like Hebden the cool kids are digging lines in the trees, watching 50:1 and Tommy C Hype on Insta. Most folk you come across on MTB are under 25, most that are building are school age. MTB is alive and well in the hills.