[Closed] The impact of BPW on our sport.

BPW rides nothing like Llandegla, which is nothing like Swinley, which is nothing like Afan... Sure they're all riding, all riding trails up and down, but that's as close to being related they are.

Oh the irony

it kinda was the point, honestly, I'm wasted here...

Sure they're all riding, all riding trails up and down

Except Swinley 🙂

You must have missed Steyning...

I can assure you I've missed none of it. I was exaggerating to get the point across though - as said, it's just somewhere different (Scotland). Wiv rocks.

[i]BPW looks to be something else though[/i]

One word : Uplift.

too crap to get a defence named after it nick 😉

Sorry as I did totally miss that 😳

too crap to get a defence named after it nick

I don't think I'm nearly big hittery enough...

Except Swinley

and yet.. eBikes 😆

(sorry, don't wanna turn this into an eBikes thread!)

This year and last, some of the really good Singletrack away from the central area is grassing over for the first time I can recall in 17 years.

Visited a mate and rode some of the trails I used to night-ride with North Leeds and found the same. Trails that used to be kept open by mtbers have all but disappeared.

Turn up somewhere you've never been with a map you don't really know how to use...

this is trails centres for me. As a student in Liverpool in the 90's We could afford to spend every weekend exploring North Wales with an OS map, and whilst every trip was a bit of an 'adventure' we probably had a 50% strike rate in terms of decent riding. I'm now (relatively speaking) cash-rich and time-poor, if I've got a day or a weekend to ride MTB I don't want to waste it hiking through waist-deep heather so it's purpose-built trail centres or other well established routes.

Never done BPW though!

It's interesting, because the advent of the 'age of the trail centre' is also producing a markedly different type of mtber.

They tend to be fast flow line riders capable of massive (by my terms of reference) jumps and drops far in excess of my own meagre trail skills, but they can't ride chunder or variable surfaces well and seem to complain alot about the lack of flow on natural and unpredictable trails, and don't really have much of a concept of what a technical climb really is.

This seems to translate to riders that are super fast on easy natural trails and a bit slow and whingy and dabby/crashy on anything where you have to make flow, rather than be fed it.

Figures really, given the different skills required.

Except Swinley

I'll race ya round there 😉

+1 to Scienceofficer.

The interesting trails to me are those often described as "nadgery" (I presume that's what you mean by "chunder"). They can be anything from flat to fairly steep downhill or even slightly uphill but there's no line or flow as such and you have to pick your way along rather than simply blasting through. They definitely aren't designed to be ridden let alone flow.

It still isn't. There's no legal right to go and dig up land you don't own. The land owner will however weigh up the various risks vs the resources required to remove it / maintain it / monitor them and act from there.

Landowners can give permission for people to build in areas - ie golfie - and are more likely to give that permission if theres a benefit to the local community - which there is in the Tweed Valley - but it will come with conditions.

You can go into all the nuances and legalities if you want, it's happening all over the country, not just in the Tweed valley.

I'm quite happy to go spend a day clearing out and ride a trail that I have no legal right to do, giving myself and others another place to add in to our local riding, if the local landowner pulls it down (they'd have to block it, as I don't really tend to 'build' much as such, so there's nothing really to pull down) then hey ho, I'm fine with that, I've only lost a days building.

You may have a different view, cool.

As I said, I can either bemoan the lack of local stuff, or I can do something about it.

This seems to translate to riders that are super fast on easy natural trails and a bit slow and whingy and dabby/crashy on anything where you have to make flow, rather than be fed it.

was on holibobs last week with a guiding co, and this came up...The fact that some folks are looking for "flow" rather than "tech". I think it's a combo of what people are riding and watching on You Tube. I'm not a fan of the super steep techy switch back (downhill right-handers are my kryptonite) you see on some Alpine and Pyrenean trails, but accept them as part of the deal, but the owner was expressing his frustration that folk where coming to him and 1. not really wanting to, or indeed be prepared to ride uphill for any extended period, 2. being frustrated that natural trails are not always 100% ridable, and 3. hurting themselves by riding faster than is really do-able on natural trails that aren't designed solely for mountain bikes.

world's turning fo'shure

Turn up somewhere you've never been with a map [s]you don't really know how to use,[/s] with some hints and tips on where you ought to head to, run the distinct possibility of getting lost, taking ages to get around a route and miss a bunch of the best riding, [b]but finish with a sense of achievement of having fun finding and riding whatever you rode[/b]

Sounds good

or turn up to a venue [b]that looks and feels a lot like all the other similar venues[/b] with convenient parking and facilities, ride trails that a good in virtually all weathers with way marking and guaranteed good riding.

Meh.

I'm mildly trolling, it's true. I totally get why people enjoy facilities like BPW and trail centres, they just leave me cold.

I noticed a lot at FoD too.

Deffo this, I know it's a lovely part of the World, but the FOD TC (I know it's only a tiny part of the forest and there's better riding blah blah blah) is doing a remarkable job attracting people - even with some eye watering parking rates these days 😉

I love going there, shitfire I live in Cardiff - any direct on the compass that does't end up in the sea has great riding, but I still go over to FOD, even though the trails aren't objectively as good as say Afan, but I like the place, especially in Summer, I don't know what they've done to make it so, but it's a nicer place to hang out that any of the South Wales TCs - or maybe I just like the burgers too much.

I was trying to think of an example of such a trail that people might have done.

The Llyn Cowlyd loop in North Wales is probably as good an example as any. It's probably all rideable but possibly not by one person short of them being Danny MacAskill. There's a few bits where you've a short steep climb where it's just easier to get off and walk but if you sessioned them then you'd stand a chance. Generally it's hard work and I can see that if you are used to trail centre "flow" then it would be very frustrating.

I've been to bpw once, in august. I could not believe how busy it was.

They tend to be fast flow line riders capable of massive (by my terms of reference) jumps and drops far in excess of my own meagre trail skills, but they can't ride chunder or variable surfaces well and seem to complain alot about the lack of flow on natural and unpredictable trails, and don't really have much of a concept of what a technical climb really is.

I resemble that accusation!

I've been riding for nearly 15 years now, in my natural element I'm pretty good - I can hammer down a nicely surfaced TC like I know what I'm doing - I've even been called "fast" a few times.

I started riding (for the second time) in 2004 I think, first we rode around the local nature park thing for a bit, then hopped in the Van down to Afan etc - missed the whole part of the learning curve that handled, mud, roots (other than carefully cleared, pointing in the right direction one) and even drops - honestly, I couldn't ride a drop that I couldn't roll until about 10 months ago.

I've never understood why someone would drive to Scotland and just ride the trail centres

I've got friends that live in The Lakes, and drive to Llangdegla to ride.. 🙄

I've not been to BPW, is it in an old quarry or ex industrial area or FC land? If it's getting very busy then surely there's a business case for another somewhere not too close to it.

I think trail centres are a brilliant addition to the MTB menu, but they're not the be all and end all.

In 2007/8 I had cause to work for an extended period very close to Afan. It took precisely 2 weeks at twice a week for me to realise there's fundamentally one line and the riding there is about subsequent iterative improvements to that one line. It took me three weeks until I was bored. Now, I fully appreciate this is my preference, but one of the most rewarding things about MTB for me is planning lines out of chaos and executing them in real time and that was missing because the choices were taken away from me.

It's a tired old trope, but a useful one, to compare trail centres to junk food. For me, they're an occasional treat, and I treat myself more when the weather is poor and I need cheering up, when mud plugging get too much and fancy a hoon, but too often and I get bored. Other people like to eat more burgers than I do, and that's fair enough.

BPW is a little different, in that they've thought carefully about rider progression, and in my eyes it's a genuinely useful self teaching venue. It's certainly allowed me to advance my drops and air time whilst having a great time. But, I'd not really want to ride there more often than say, 3 times a year. As it is, I'm struggling for new combinations off the hill by the end of the day as it all starts to get a bit samey.

I think all trail centres have made MTB accessible and widened the participant background.

Riding bikes is ace.

I love them both. Trail centers are like going to a skatepark. Cool fun tails more big bike oriented play ground type affairs.

Natural riding is more of a adventure, sometimes technical sometimes physically challenging sometimes both. Definitely very different types of riding which is why I have two very different bikes for them.

I except though that some people don't want to do the other.

No berms on corners...

Well, that's it. Not going there.

I'm quite happy to go spend a day clearing out and ride a trail that I have no legal right to do, giving myself and others another place to add in to our local riding, if the local landowner pulls it down (they'd have to block it, as I don't really tend to 'build' much as such, so there's nothing really to pull down) then hey ho, I'm fine with that, I've only lost a days building.

...

As I said, I can either bemoan the lack of local stuff, or I can do something about it.

Pretty much my view too. I know a little bit about trail building and maintenance, and actually enjoy being out in the woods feeling the seasons change after a week staring at a screen indoors.

I've not been to BPW, is it in an old quarry or ex industrial area or FC land? If it's getting very busy then surely there's a business case for another somewhere not too close to it.

There is a really good HKT podcast with one of the guys from BPW talking about how it all started. Very interesting, a lot of the funding was from the EU (something like £2million I think?), so any future projects would likely need funding from elsewhere.

riding trail centres- its like going into a brothel and asking for a kiss

Not sure I quite get that.

I'm lucky in that I've lived in the Lake District, Peak, North York Moors, and now Reading (yea, the good times had to end at some point). So I've had easy access to a variety of natural riding, views, remoteness, quiet tracks etc. And now I've still got the chilterns (bit busy with roads to be considered proper 'out in the hills' riding) and the quasai natural trail center that is the Surrey/Berkshire/Hampshire border.

So having had a lot of 'natural' riding locally, going to to a trail center is not like going to a brothel and asking for a kiss, it's going to a brothel and asking for that unspeakably dirty thing your other half once found in your internet history and threatened to cut your bollocks off if you ever tried it at home. And you probably do it several times an hour for a whole day.

You still love your other half, but she's not 5 straight minutes of berms and tabletops.

Going to scotland to ride through a Glen (which could be a midge infested bog followed by some hike a bike uphill) is like going to a brothel and picking the good looking girl, but she's got crabs and you only do missionary.

if you go to the mountains and dont ride them why did you go to the mountains?

I agree that not all natural routes are brilliant [and i am not saying all trail centres are shit before i get accused of that ]

If it's getting very busy then surely there's a business case for another somewhere not too close to it.

About 50% of the entire land area of the Valleys could be made into bike park. There are even already roads up to the top of most of it. It really is the perfect area for it. Steep low-value land with 2-300m elevation difference, road access and motorways.

Can we just agree that TCs and natural are just different styles of riding and they can both be enjoyed according to personal taste?

Going to scotland to ride through a Glen (which could be a midge infested bog followed by some hike a bike uphill) is like going to a brothel and picking the good looking girl, but she's got crabs and you only do missionary.

Yeah, but just think of the tales in the pub afterwards! 😆

@molgrips - it's often the supporting infrastructure that can be the problem: access; parking; sanitation. Work that out, make a business plan and get locals involved. If local businesses and councillors can be persuaded that it benefits them then planning permission is a lot easier.

No berms on corners...
Well, that's it. Not going there.

My point is that TCs are best used for fairly flat-out, 'flowy' riding and the speeds modern bikes are capable of, even with a very average rider, means that riders are hitting trails and corners much faster than the trails were originally designed for. I find standard TC switchbacky down the valley side trails without berms really frustrating because I lose all speed/flow and have to start again. I was perfectly happy riding the same trails on my 100mm hardtail years ago.

Note I much prefer natural trails (rode 4 times in the Lakes last week) but I go to TCs for a reason and many TC trails are still designed for 90s hardtails vs BPW and some other TCs who've adapted to the latest rider demands/requirements.

So having had a lot of 'natural' riding locally, going to to a trail center is not like going to a brothel and asking for a kiss, it's going to a brothel and asking for that unspeakably dirty thing your other half once found in your internet history and threatened to cut your bollocks off if you ever tried it at home.

Wins the thread!

I've not been to BPW, is it in an old quarry or ex industrial area or FC land? If it's getting very busy then surely there's a business case for another somewhere not too close to it.

FC or NRW as it's called in Wales and it's not 'getting busy' it opened to a complete sell out and I don't think they've ever failed to sell an uplift place since.

There was a DH track there for years and I'm told one of the black trails has elements of that original track in it - how true I don't know.

The area itself is, like a lot of the valley's, a former mining area and been struggling for a long time - not many opportunities for young people, most I think come to Cardiff for work.

The 'business case' element has already hurt Cwmcarn - The Cafal and Pedalhounds track were part of the original Cognation Plan (£6m-ish funding for MTB stuff in South Wales) - Caerphilly Council who run CC, took the money, spent a lot on a bigger Car Park (and made it Pay and Display where is was previously free) built some toilets and a shop and then, when it came to building the actual trails, got cold feet, citing the need with BPW being so close, it took a lot of campaigning to get them to do it - even now, they're having cold feet about re-opening the scenic drive now the forestry work is complete.

I personally think the non-BPW elements of Cognation were very poorly handled, the North Wales version (which built AS) was better - the plans were very new trail orientated, but NPT that run Afan didn't build any new adult trails per-se, they reopened Penhydd which was closed by NRW, Built Blade which was funded by the Wind Farm people and used some fire roads to create W2 - I may be wrong, but they seemed to spend their pot on a slightly daft because it's not big enough glass roof extension for the cafe, and then closed it.

Anyway, it makes be a bit ranty.

I live 20 mins from BPW. Great place but I never go there because its full of the all the gear no idea crew. I prefer the quieter natural trails and Cwmcarn/Afan. Earn your descents!

Trail Centres definitely have their place, and i'm sure there are a lot of weekend warriors (for want of a not very endearing term) who just ride TC because it is so easy.

But in, oh, about 20 years of MTBing, i can't actually think of any memorable ride i've done at a trail centre? The rides i remember, the rides we still talk about in the pub, they've all been out in the wild, often the rides that "went wrong" and felt like purgatory at the time(due to weather, mechanical, injury, getting lost etc), but now those memories have been mellowed and tinted by the passage of time, and have become Legend.

I think the other aspect is what happens when you crash at a trail centre. Due to the mass weight of traffic, trail centres have too have 'armored' trails, lots of stone etc. And when you fall off onto that, it hurts. In fact, have an off at BPW, even a pretty slow one, and there is a good chance of that resulting in a hospital visit. Same with Swinley, despite that place rating as pretty much zero on the Gnarrcore scale!

On the flip side, i've had huge, massive, even spectacular crashes out on real trails and not been hurt, because landing in a bush, a wet muddle puddle, or similar is a lot softer a landing. The result, i wonder, is that MTB is going from a sport where you would learn your art from a lot of small non injurious crashes, to one where you don't crash, until you have a biggy?

Blah blah blah.

It's all MTB and it's all good. You can't blame the success of BPW for Afan being run down. Trail centres are just a bit old hat now and bike parks, wild trails and "adventure" are where it's at.

I get bored by too many berms personally, but BPW's success shows I'm probably in the minority.

But in, oh, about 20 years of MTBing, i can't actually think of any memorable ride i've done at a trail centre?

I get a particular rush from TC riding. Especially the descent on Cafall. Very few berms.

Choice is good.

Also: Berm'd corners really highlight the TC effect. Even without any skill, you can go quite fast round a berm'd corner. Probably the difference between absolute perfect footwork and body mass positioning is maybe 30% speed. Natural, off camber, bumpy, rooty turns however are the opposite. With poor technique you probably can't even make it around, let alone with any speed, but with good technique, you can carry speed around them.

Today, thanks to youtube, loads of people want too, and often can, JUMP things. But show them a corner, and oh dear, not so impressive. Next time you follow someone at BPW, have a look at their foot work for example....

(and of course, doing a jump at say BPW, where it's a perfectly sculpted takeoff into a perfect length flight, into a perfect landing really isn't that difficult. I've ridden with plenty of people who can jump at trail centers but not in the real world on real trails (often, they don't even "see" the natural jumps because they haven't learnt to read a trail, just to follow one.......... )

if you go to the mountains and dont ride them why did you go to the mountains?[quote/]

Because the mountains are 5 hours further from the Lake district or N.Wales.

The 7 stanes when they opened were genuinely something new. Mountains are Mountains, and from London the alps are about the same distsnce as Fort William.

 

molgrips
I get a particular rush from TC riding

Me too. But it's a short term hit. You get to the bottom, "high five" your riding buddies, maybe even talk about how rad you were over a coffee in the coffee shop. But, drive home, sleep, and by next morning it's gone. You remember having fun, Remember the endorphin hit, but that's it.

I'm sat here trying to remember any particular run i've done at BPW, and i can't!

And yet, i can remember in HD/4k detail a particular moment at a Click24 race in 2008, at 4.30am, when the sun came up, and i rode out of the cold, dark woods, exhausted, out onto the higher moors, and saw the dark shadow of the woods racing away on the ground in front of me as the sun rose, and below, the lights of Bristol were winking in the gloaming, and i watched planes descending to the airport, silent silver tubes glinting as they maneuvered onto Finals in the rays of the early morning sun.

A particular moment, probably lasting no more than 15 seconds, but that is frozen in time and etched into my memory.

110% what maxtorque says.

The view of Snowdon from the bunk house, in the last of early spring's orange sunlight at dusk, snow glinting bright against the backdrop of dark thunderous skies, and highlighting the rock face Indian in perfect relief.

Peeing on my cassette and derailleur in -6 to unfreeze the gears and freehub on the Quantocks ridge line in January.

Coming off Helvellyn and into Sticks pass in the snow, with skiers on the piste opposite.

The feeling of exposure with the binary outcomes of life or death resting on your bike handling skills in the Sapnish alphajrras (sp!).

Plenty of those etched in the record.

Mostly, trail centre rides fit into the 'yeah, we went there and it was good' generic category.

in the last of early spring's orange sunlight at dusk, snow glinting bright against the backdrop of dark thunderous skies, and highlighting the rock face Indian in perfect relief.

New trail at BPW

Just came back from a week in Scotland riding natural trails (Torridon area) and I do think i was riding them better than in the past because i went to BPW several times during the year training myself jumping and cornering.

The skills thing is a valid point. But how many transfer the skills picked up at BPW and trail centres out into the mountains? I wouldn't expect a big proportion but I'd expect (hope?) that some do. Note I'm not saying it's an expected progression.