I was reflecting as I rode around a local trail centre last week (Pitfichie, but I'm sure the same applies elsewhere) on how much mountain biking has changed since the trail was originally constructed.
The Cairn William trail has loads of interesting (and challenging) rock features on the climb up to the summit (followed by a fun but not too challenging descent). However, watching other riders and looking at the wear on the trail it looks as though hardly anybody tries to ride these features these days. Most will ride round them and many seem happy to push up the steep bits. Focussing instead on trying to go as fast as possible down the descent.
Fair enough, I have no problem with people having fun in any way that they want, although I do find it funny when people go online and complain that the red route isn't hard enough (did they really ride all the features on the way up?). But it's interesting how the focus seems to have shifted so much towards the descents over the years. See, for example, the interest in uplifts. I guess some of the interest in ebikes may also be from those see the climb as just a necessary evil.
The skillset required and the risks involved seem to have changed too. To ride up the trail as it was originally conceived would require a high level of both skill and fitness. However, if you get it wrong you'll do so at very low speed and are unlikely to hurt yourself. Of course, throwing yourself down a tricky descent requires skill too and some fitness, but it often seems to be more a test of courage than of fitness and if you get it wrong you are much more likely to end up in A&E.
As I say, each to their own, but I wonder when mountain biking stopped being about riding up and down mountains and became all about the down.
but I wonder when mountain biking stopped being about riding up and down mountains and became all about the down
A long time ago
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Not in my world,still love the challenge of cleaning a tough climb and fast flow XC.
As you say ,each to their own. 🙂
A long time ago
Fair point, although he seems to be having fun on the sort of dusty fireroad that would draw scorn these days and I bet he rode up too.
I remember riding out in Utah in the early 1990's. Sure we had fun on the descents (although they were tame by modern standards), but we spent as much time challenging each other to ride up stuff as we did going down.
2 things.
see those "challenging" bits on the climb. they neither flow nor are natural. Its some rocks dumped in the path to force a technical aspect - how ever they are all ridable however the beginners i take out there struggle/dont do them ....maybe thats whats causing the errosion your looking at. . Some trail centres manage this. Glentress/inners/kirroughtree to name a few. others just seem forced - pitfichie and comrie spring to mind
and 2
the descent isnt worth pushing up the hill for.
pitfichie xc serves one purpose in my eyes to give beginners somewhere local and marked to begin their mtb riding , it does that well and its still where i take people who want to get started.
how ever im not a fan.
I started in the early 90's so am old skool too, but it's still about the ups and the downs for me, I can't imagine owning a bike that doesn't climb well.
I've definitely noticed the influence of strava at places like glentress, there are so many strava shortcuts straightlining corners, and people don't talk about their new bike being light or being fun to ride, but as being faster on strava.
True fitness is being able to blast up the climb, then drop you saddle and without stopping to catch you breath, blast the descent too! Minor trail features that just take a small bunny hop or jump become a lot harder at warp 9 when you're knackered!
"I wonder when mountain biking stopped being about riding up and down mountains and became all about the down."
But you're talking about trail centres, not mountains?
BoardinBob - Member
but I wonder when mountain biking stopped being about riding up and down mountains and became all about the down
A long time ago
did they not put gears on their clunkers so they could ride up the hills to get them to the start of decsents thus turning them into what became 'mountainbikes'?
it depends which bit of the mountainbike myth you chose to believe anyway...
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see those "challenging" bits on the climb. they neither flow nor are natural. Its some rocks dumped in the path to force a technical aspect - how ever they are all ridable
Thanks. This wasn't really meant to be specifically about Pitfichie. I probably go there about once or twice a year as it's not really my thing, but fair play to anybody who can ride all the way up (over all the rock features). Some of them seem to be placed at spots where you are already blowing hard from the climb. But the people who built the trail obviously put a lot of work into dumping those rocks on the path to make what is already a fair climb a bit more tricky. I wonder if people building trails today are putting as much thought and effort into the climbs as the descents.
You're viewing the sport through the narrow prism of your own prejudices and preconceptions.
It's not one or the other, people are just doing more things.
FWIW I perceive that there's a growing number of riders leaving the trail centres in favour of riding up and down more rugged tracks in the hills and mountains.
mountainbiking has always been about the downhill. why else would you struggle to the top of any hill/mountain with a bike if not to enjoy the descent.
been doing this since the mid 80's and it has always been the ultimate goal...the descent.
I think mtb'ing can really be what you want it to be. I like natural trails, some might call it XC riding I just think of it as mountain biking. Riding from A to B going up and down over whatever obstacles present. Other people have their own definition, racing, gravity, spending money on shiny things etc..
You might have a point in that there does seem to be a skew towards trail centre riding at the moment. In the media, in bike design, in people complaining that bridleways don't have berms in them! (<-o.k, maybe just the "wrong surface").
the best bit of pitfichie climb that gives the most challenge is the initial climb from the fire road to the first cairn....and thats pretty much natural .... my comments are regarding the second switch backy climb with all the rocks dumped on.
I love running, riding and walking uphill just as much as the downhill. Skiing less so!
I think we may be approaching a slight tipping point (Enduor max?) and the fashion swing in 2 years will come back to lighter, faster. In the meantime, we are all benefiting from the improvements in bikes in the middle. Faster and more capable - progress!
I started in the late '80s, so I'm a bit old skool (and old) but I still enjoy the climbing, more so if there's a bit of technicality and line choice etc. I'm not the fastest climber by any means but I like to think I can still climb reasonably well.
I also enjoy the descents but mainly I like them slower and a bit trialsy, partly because that's what I do best and partly because I'm not brave enough to hit things at speed anymore.
Interesting discussion this.
I've been thinking about it lately after trying to plan an Alps trip with a friend and abandoning it after realising that we want totally different things out of the trip.
I think some people now see mtb-ing as an extension of a theme park. They use uplift to go up before embarking on a roller coaster type descent.
Nothing wrong with that but it's not for me.
Actually, i do find that kind of riding fun for a day maybe but not for a whole holiday.
Also, is it just me or are people becoming more and more deluded? Whenever I think about going on a mtb trip, the first questions I ask myself are am I fit enough and do I have suitable skills but it seems not everybody is the same!
certain kind of "challenges" are certainly going out of fashion/not very popular at trail centers .A Case In point Hermon at CYB originally a rooty downs and short sharp steep ups real tricky to clean esp in the wet. Now a smooth flowing fast singletrack.
I also enjoy the descents but mainly I like them slower and a bit trialsy, partly because that's what I do best and partly because I'm not brave enough to hit things at speed anymore.
Me++
After a big off my all-out-attack days are behind me. I like a challenging climb, always have. It used to be the essence of biking for me - hard work on the up, reward of the down. Not a bad lesson in life really. But as I've got older I just appreciate the whole ride a bit more.
Trail centres are often awful for climbs, they tend to take the lazy route and send you up a dull as dishwater fireroad climb. Cwmcarn is the only exception I can think of, but not done all that many.
I think it's a funny UK centric thing. On the continent and in the USA they love a good climb, hence why XC is still pretty popular. UK riders are inherently lazy 😆
As an aside Pitfichie is weird, it could be really quite good, but it's almost like they built a little bit then thought, pah this is hard work we can't be bothered anymore.
OP, can I suggest moving to France?
They absolutely love beasting themselves uphill.
the trouble with technical climbs is that they reduce climbing efficiency meaning you get less downhill (or fun) for a given input of effort. If someone has dumped a large rock in the middle of the trail then sometimes I can ride over it (depends how big the rock is) but it is an irritation and if I can I will ride around it as it is easier.
I enjoy climbing and will happily do 5000+ ft but the purpose of this effort is always to shred gnarpoon DH as its just much more fun.
...other opinions are available
...and incorrect 😉
For me there are 2 things.
Mountain biking on mountains where getting to the top involves riding, pushing and carrying to get somewhere amazing then riding, pushing and carrying at times back down (depending on where it is)
Then there is trail riding where getting up and down is all rideable.
Fitness and skill makes the ups and the downs easier, faster and better. It can reduce the courage needed.
Mountain biking to me has always been about getting to the top of the hill, enjoying the views then getting the maximum fun out of the descents. That was the case when I started about 25 years ago and I don't think that's really changed. The capability of bikes has increased enormously which has in turn changed the features we consider appropriate for a given level of rider to tackle but I don't think your average rider has any more of a downhill only bias than ever they did, almost everyone likes going downhill on a bike, not everyone likes climbing!
throwing yourself down a tricky descent requires skill too and some fitness, but it often seems to be more a test of courage than of fitness
To me, if you feel that riding something is predominantly a test of courage then you are riding over your head. Downhill riding for me has always been about applying my skills well in tricky situations not about taking what feels like a gamble.
As an aside Pitfichie is weird, it could be really quite good, but it's almost like they built a little bit then thought, pah this is hard work we can't be bothered anymore.
This times many, the fact that unless you ride the DH course at the end, you finish the main descent still most of the way up the hill and have to lose the rest of the height down fireroads just makes it feel like it's all climb and very little descent as if it was some sort of MC Escher trail centre. However, for what it's worth, despite being a fairly DH biased rider (almost always on a long travel bike, DH racing background) I do usually ride all of the Cairn William climb, including the features and for a climb, it's actually quite fun. The descent on the the other hand requires so much pedalling and work to feel like you are pushing at all that it's almost as hard work as the climb and not much more fun.
To me, if you feel that riding something is predominantly a test of courage then you are riding over your head.
Nah, I'm just a coward. It's all a test of courage for me 🙂
I do usually ride all of the Cairn William climb, including the features
Chapeau !!
Not taking the piss, I'm genuinely impressed.
mountainbiking has always been about the downhill. why else would you struggle to the top of any hill/mountain with a bike if not to enjoy the descent.
been doing this since the mid 80's and it has always been the ultimate goal...the descent.
No it hasn't. For those of us who came into it from a mountaineering background in the 80s and 90s, mountain biking was a means of getting around the mountains with, hopefully, a decent bit of downhill to round off the day. The same applies to ski touring, another means of getting around the mountains.
Mountain biking and downhilling are to bikes what ski touring and piste skiing are to skis, different niches in the same sport.
yes it has, for me.
Cairn William isn't too hard (assuming that's the climb up to the Trig point), it's the boulder mess of a climb before it that bugs. IMO trail centres shouldn't have hike-a-bike sections in, that's just daft.
Cairn William descent is okay and fun if ridden fast, but could be improved with the removal of the odd rocky uphill sections.
Cairn William isn't too hard (assuming that's the climb up to the Trig point), it's the boulder mess of a climb before it that bugs. IMO trail centres shouldn't have hike-a-bike sections in, that's just daft.
I take the climb as being everything from where the red and white routes split to the trig point. So, between poins 5 and 6 on this route
[url= http://www.mtbtrails.info/Trail_Venue_Map_TrailViewer.aspx?VenueNumber=18&TrailNumber=21&Unique=635646092855122500 ]http://www.mtbtrails.info[/url]
Or from point 16 up to the Trig Point on this trail map:
[url= http://www.ecurieneep.co.uk/images/Pitfichie/Pitichie%20MTb%20Trail%20Development.pdf ]http://www.ecurieneep.co.uk/images/Pitfichie/Pitichie%20MTb%20Trail%20Development.pdf[/url]
I think the "boulder mess" you are talking about is the climb up Green Hill. So, from point 14 on the trail map. That's a tough enough hike for me 🙂
Cairn William descent is okay and fun if ridden fast, but could be improved with the removal of the odd rocky uphill sections.
That's my problem with it really (and why I don't ride there often). The "challenge" on the descent just seems to be to go faster, which I don't really find much more fun than going a bit slower. It's just over faster and the consequences of a slip-up are higher.
yes it has, for me.
Me too!
For those of us who came into it from a mountaineering background in the 80s and 90s, mountain biking was a means of getting around the mountains with, hopefully, a decent bit of downhill to round off the day.
Ah, but that was folks from a mountaineering background co-opting mountain bikes for their own purposes rather than what Mountain biking had always been about 😉
Cairn William isn't too hard (assuming that's the climb up to the Trig point), it's the boulder mess of a climb before it that bugs. IMO trail centres shouldn't have hike-a-bike sections in, that's just daft.
Yes, the main one that's all reasonably rideable and finishes with some big slabs is Cairn William. For what it's worth, the other one is rideable too, I can't do it myself but I've seen it done! It's a push / carry for me though.
yes it has, for me.
Me too. I can't imagine going for a ride just to get/see somewhere but to each his own.
I've been riding since the early 90s - it's always been a case of the ups being a way to get to the downs.
Technical climbing has always seemed a bit pointless - as has all the old fashioned "no dabs" mentality around it. Surely a climb is just a means to an end? Or at least for me it is.
Even before the big E came along, for me and my mates, we have always been happy to cruise a road climb or fireroad, having a natter and then save energy to hit the DH as fast as possible. I imagine plenty of others are the same. It's probably just that since the growth of Enduro in the last 6-7 years (UK was late to the game), bikes and riders are gearing more for descending fast than climbing fast.
I ride plenty to go or see something. but when I ride offroad I want some downhill. don't mind earning them.
my 1st ride back on the mtb was a 2.5 hour push /carry up skiddaw.
well worth the downhill......... 8)
ATBs .. bikes for riding in nice places, up, down and along, generally off road. No more complex than that really, to me. Same as it was almost 30 years ago. Within all that I've had more jump/DH focus and more XC times or even roadie periods but the general aims of riding haven't changed. Climbs are as worthwhile as decents, they're just different tests. 2 sides of the coin.
All depends on fitness for me. At the moment I'll avoid the technical bits on the climb as I'm fully aware my fitness isn't at a level where I can enjoy the descent if I put extra in on the way up. However when I'm fit I find the technical bits of the climbs enjoyable and very satisfying to ride them clean. Definitely noticing the skills are not as sharp when I try a rock step at the moment, they were always fairly straightforward now there's every chance I'll get it wrong which is annoying!
Golspie is a great one, always starting to get out of breath then the horrible bit towards the end of the climb (staircase/stairway??) comes with no way round it and highly technical. Had me swearing at it many a time but still a cracking challenge.
It wasn't mountain biking when I started, it was ATB, all terrain biking. I remember doing the DH race and then the XC the next day on the same bike. The same bike that we went to the quarry to do drops on or full days in the lakes or jumps in the woods. And the descent was the best bit!!!
Yep, I'm in agreement here.
I feel like for once I'm drifting out of fashion as a rider. (not that is matters, but you can feel it.)
Last year was an epoch when I turned up on an Alpine XC holiday only to find we didn't ride much and I was the only one in Lycra.
I enjoy turning pedals and seeing countryside; and getting a lick on. Think transwales/trailquests etc. But I do feel the emphasis is on immediate thrills rather than satisfaction by working against gravity.
It does mean different things to different people and that's fine. But I agree if there is a sub-culture moulded out to us to be cool and exciting; it's not taking on my local countryside.
Last year was an epoch when I turned up on an Alpine XC holiday only to find we didn't ride much and I was the only one in Lycra.
Head down to Oz, they all still wear lycra if it makes you feel more comfortable.
For me personally I like the challenge of going up as well as down. Don't get me wrong, I much much prefer descending rather than climbing but for me mountain biking is about both. Generally I like to earn my descents, its not a hard rule as I have done a few uplift days but in general I prefer to gain the elevation my self.
So if I'm going to go up a hill, I'd much rather it was technical with features to keep me interested rather than a boring smooth climb to the top. The Cwmcarn climb and Whites level climb are some of my favourites as they are engaging and keep me interested. Even though I am a weekend warrior with below average fitness and have to pause a few times to get to the top. I'd much rather climb those than a boring climb where all you have to do is ensure the pedals keep moving.
I've just got back from Oz - last week.
I didn't see a whole lot of riders on my trip at all - however the week before in NZ it was slightly more of a version of the UK scene.
And it's funny, but I've never had a pair of baggies ever feel comfortable.
XC and lycra-clad still works in South Africa where mountain biking is popular thanks to the dangerous roads and the massive choice of places to ride, with absolutely no restrictions at all.
There aren't many roads here: http://labs.strava.com/heatmap/#11/27.32685/-26.79768/yellow/bike
It's a big place, you need to know where to look.
so in summary : different people like different things! 🙂
FWIW, I like up, love a good techy climb, I like along, flowy speeder bike style, or almost trials hop-fest, I like down, fast and swoopy, or jumpy, or slow and techy, I also like riding to a 'place' and riding back.
I get that some people favour certain aspects almost to the point of disliking the others, but then we're all different and you can't please everyone!
andyrm - MemberTechnical climbing has always seemed a bit pointless - as has all the old fashioned "no dabs" mentality around it.
Obviously no trials rider in you then 😉
Indeed, it's the uphill version of trying to do a DH without bottling any features or crashing.
I [b]love [/b]a good tricky climb, I seek them out, much to the annoyance of some of my friends 😈
For balance I also seek out the best descents, which they have less of a problem with for some reason
i have pedals. they go all the way round and make my bike go uphills.
seems strange having 10 or 11 gears, pushing up or hitching a lift, then the only pedalling is one half turn between each berm to get the pedals in the right position for a bend in the other direction 😉
doesn't necessarily need to be technical uphill. just interesting, or scenic is good too.
but I'm one of those luddites with 3 chainrings still. and use them all. and when in "the Alps*", I have actually pedalled up, putting the mountain in to mountainbike rather than just roll down an (admittedly technical) BMX track.
(*which seems to equate to "Morzine" and "Les Arcs")
good effort there Andy getting 1x, BMX tracks and all that in one post
BMX in Les Arcs
I'm wondering whether this a real trend or a marketing trend?
The marketers have always gravitated to the downhill side of the market, this has always been the higher profile part of the sport even though it might not be relevant to what most of us do on a bike. Its an easy angle to push these days given how capable the average "Trail" bike is.
I've always enjoyed the challenge of a good climb, though.
Boring fireroads aren't derserving of much effort but a nice switch backy bit of singletrack is a rewarding challenge. If you are rewarded by a nice descent then even better.
Rode up pitch hill on Sunday to see people pushing their bikes up a gentle slope to the top, presumably so they can session the xc single track. Got to peaslake to hear someone moaning that bike park Wales was fully booked for 3 months (the uplift) so they weren't going to go. I just don't understand going out for a bike ride and then pushing everywhere. That's just taking your bike for a walk.
yeah, I've noticed that I often come away from trail centers disappointed at the climbs, I like descending too but most places seem to have that well sorted.
One place I was really impressed with the climb was the first major one on the brechfa black route, good techy steep and long enough to really hurt. I also quite like the techy climb on whites level at afan.
I will confess that my trail center bike of choice (also is my 100mm "long travel" bike) has bar ends and runs double chainrings most of the time! The rest do have curly bars though!
I like a good downhill section with jumps and berms etc.. but big climbs, on or off road, are the most rewarding bit of cycling for me.
Did a nice half-road half-byway climb at the weekend, a good 12k in length, and nearly 400m up to one of the highest paths in the peak. 🙂 The downhill wasn't amazing, but I enjoyed the 20 min rest at the top while I enjoyed the amazing views (and tried not to be blown away!).
You need to ride big hills to see these places...
I do get the impression a lot of riders shown up trail centres and only do downhill runs, and just crawl up or push up the up hills, as a means to an end. Each to their own though, as long as your having fun. 🙂
I've noticed that I often come away from trail centers disappointed at the climbs
backwards nightride 😉
Been riding since the early 90s and it's always been about the jumps and the downs for me!
The Trans-Provence strikes me as the ideal in mountain biking.