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Buzzard, will look out for you but there's going to be a fair few riders in our open - I'm Black/white/Red Scott Spark Red kit black shorts, Orange Helmet.
We've moved on a bit but for Weeksy & Ferrals;
At Z2 Mitochondria translates carbs to energy a rate in excess of x 30. Above Z2 Mitochondria reverts to Glycogen in cells and translates carbs to energy at x 2 - much less efficient quicker carb burn. You have max 90 mins of that assuming your Glycogen tank was full up to start with. So in essence you can ride all day in Z2, but 90 mins max above.
Buy building up more Mitochondria by riding around in Z2, you shift Z2 - and therefore all other zones upward. Imagine then, you could ride around at 300w but remain in Z2 - you'd be pretty fast and you still have all your Glycogen available for harder efforts e.g. Pro peloton riders. Or, look at it the other way round than in an XCO race when you've burned all your available Glycogen at about 90mins from the starting sprint the body defers to Z2 aka you by default get slower. Again, if your Z2 is higher than the next man, you'll be faster than him at the end of that race.
At least, thats roughly how it works, hope that helps in some way.
To Weeksy's point - yes hit an incline and you can't stay in Z2 but it doesn't ruin what went before. I rode for 4hrs Sunday of which 2:45 was in Z2 the rest scattered all over my zones albeit I slowed to minimal effort on the lowest gears on the climbs. On a turbo of course you get more economy - I'd have only had to be on it for 2:45, but would have died of boredom.
Thanks Kryton - that's the first time I've understood why you'd train in z2 for xco despite reading all sorts of blogs! I'd not thought of it about shifting all zones upwards I'd just thought "I'm always around threshold or higher when racing so improving z2 is pointless"
You always hear of Z2 as "Base riding" in old money especially. Think like a pyramid, the wider the baser, the larger /taller the pyramid.
I'm told to perform Z2 (well, all my zones) at the top end without crossing over to help push it up quicker as your putting max stress on that zone but staying within it. I can be accurate because I was lactic blood tested.
I'm almost with you Ferrals, I've done so much Z2 I can't see the improvements and it feels like a waste, but I'm assured by someone far more knowledgable than me!
I know CH used this logic a lot lately, because in simple terms, if you can up your Z2 HR from say 220w to 240w then you're quicker all round, or riding at a lower HR, either way, it's easier.
It's worked for him massively
You always hear of Z2 as “Base riding” in old money especially. Think like a pyramid, the wider the baser, the larger /taller the pyramid.
Yeah I think I'd kind of wrongly assimilated badly understood trainerroad sweetspot base logic and come to the conclusion that all I needed to do was train to be able to ride for longer than my max race duration at 'almost race pace' and I'd be ok. but i guess rather than building a pyramid I've been building a rather unstable tower. Which actually makes sense as last year I really struggled with maintaining form through weekly cx races
Well, this is new to me also. I don’t understand sweet spot physiologically other than a concept for the time crunched. However the mid portion of my training was no end of multiple 20 min sessions
Someone posted it back there correctly - my top end has dropped but my mid range neuromuscular sustainability is up, as is my endurance and I guess for Marathons and stage races that’s where I need to be, yet it compromises XCO. I guess by getting near last year’s XCO pace in my current state it demonstrates a consistent higher power output over 90 mins. I have notice my HR is flatter on XCO than last year which perhaps acknologes that, and my lap times are much less varied.
ive seen another riders profile like that article and I am also shocked by how little z5/6 there is. I guess one thing to remember is that is a percent of a much larger set of available hours than us.
Some great info on this thread. Thanks for all the contributions people. I’m learning something every time I look at it!
@padkinson - As per the power tree, I’ve lost all respect for you (or just jealous that your clearly faster than me...) 😂
I feel I can only put things right by posting mine for comparison. That way nobody will respect me either! But I’m a numbers geek so....
FTP 4.67 @ 71kg
20 min 4.92
5 min 5.98
1 min 9.37
Can I ask some advice? I had a big sprint, which last time I tried it, I got to the front on the start and died for what seems obvious reasons now.
For a Marathon style rider then, what type of XCO start? Just sprint yet hold back in expected finishing position and grind away at those in front?
Weeksy- my Z2 hasn’t gone up by riding in Z2 like Kryton though. It’s gone up by switching between blocks of Vo2 work and blocks of Sweetspot work. Which raises your ftp.
Which drags up your Aerobic Threshold.
Whilst what Kryton says is all well and good for athletes with mid-high volume hours at their disposal, on single figures it’s not going to get you there- you need extra Training Stress.
This is high risk/high reward training and needs proper recovery. When comparing with Pro’s, you almost need to consider the rest of your life (ie the things you do besides cycling that stop you from cycling 15+ hrs a week) as your Z1/2 work. Cross training yes but still- take the stairs, walk further from the car park etc etc .
Then your 6-8hrs a week can be the hard stuff that gives you the race-edge performance.
As Dr Andrew Coggan says- different ways to skin a cat.
Interestingly, I just got my hands on the all new Joe Friel bible and he backs all this up. As volume decreases- intensity has to increase 🤷🏻♂️
Is that essentially why sweet spot is seen as the Nirvana Crosshair? Raising ftp in a shorter time than volume will allow but with less stress than going above ftp?
Yes that’s it. Maximum stress with minimum recovery time.
So a quick look on TR illustrates the difference nicely.
A- Traditional Base (Z2) Mid Volume week 2 is 7hrs and 315 TSS.
B- Sweetspot Base Mid Volume week 2 is 5.6hrs and 357 TSS.
Arguably A is going to be easier to do, easier to recover from and raise your aerobic threshold a little more.
B will be harder, need more attention paid to recovery and nutrition but raise FTP quicker.
If your competition are putting in circa 400TSS a week and you don’t have any extra hours per week to train, which are you going to choose? (at least for events under say 2h in duration when anaerobic Threshold is more important than aerobic Threshold)
One of the biggest differences in the new Bible is the use of TSS to plan your season and weekly load.
Although the quoted target ranges for each Cat are a little scary 🤣
My big confusion with z2 training boils down to this: is it that its a slower process so you need more riding time overall to create the adaptions or that you need to ride for a long time before any adaptions take place. So is 45 minutes z2 (my commute if i go direct and take it easy) 'worthless' from a training perspective as its too short or will it still cause some z2 improvements. Typically if I'm doing a commute like that I tend to really focus on pedalling in circles so I hope I'm improving pedaling efficiency even if not getting any aerobic benefits
I'd guess "yes, mostly pointless" but maybe that's why i'm rubbish 🙂
I'll be very interested to see what the people who know the actual answer say.
On Zwift in the last few months i did a fair few 60-90 mins Z2 rides and i wonder looking back if they were the same
Is anyone going to Gorrick 100 at the weekend? I'll be there with 2 team mates, all on the 7 lapper.......... if it all goes well and I'm sufficiently recovered from Ten Under last weekend.
Had a couple of spins yesterday, one very easy to a cafe for lunch in the sun and one a bit pacier in the evening on the gravel bike round the forest.
No- it’s not worthless at all. As soon as you’ve warmed up and your HR has settled into Z2 then you are stressing your aerobic system and forcing adaption.
However... you may well be burning a surprising percentage of carbs depending on what kind of rider you are. That’s where the long beasty ones come in- in hour 3 or 4 you are out of carbs and the Z2 gets tougher!
But.... let’s say you smash out some intense intervals on Tuesday (or Zwift race or whatever), you’re still not going to be fully recovered (in terms of glycogen) Wednesday morning say. So your 45min commute will likely be of greater value than 45mins Z2 when fresh.
Is Trainerroad the best place to go to add a touch of structure without taking it too seriously?
Or just do the Zwift FTP improver stuff?
Thanks @crosshair - the scenario you suggest on your last paragraph is exactly when i'd be primarily doing it.
Or this morning what I actually did was 10 mins z2, 4 mins of 15s max effort 15s spin up a gradual hill then 1/2hr z2 again, which actually felt like a nice little low stress work-out
Tiger- yeah I like it. Because my training hours are relatively fixed, I can choose a plan and know that the workouts are going to progress week on week in a sustainable manner. Then you retest your ftp to make everything tougher and start progressing again
You can also see in advance what the time, TSS and calories are going to be which is handy.
Nothing you couldn’t figure out yourself but it’s all done for you. And the weekly structure is there too. The mid volume build weeks I like go from Monday: rest, intervals, z2, intervals, rest, intervals, Sweetspot.
It gets tricky when you start messing things up to actually go racing but I think you just need to assume the race is roughly equal to an interval session and move on with the plan.
I haven’t ridden on the Turbo for weeks mind you, but can usually get close enough outdoors by aiming for NP across the interval length.
Is anyone going to Gorrick 100 at the weekend?
Yup, will be there for the 5 laps for Singular. Looking forward to it!
Ferrals, you can do Z2 fasted to speed up the reliance on fat as fuel. Doing that forces the body to utilise fat, which when a “habit” then means you are carrying a big fuel cell around with you.
I did an hour z2 fasted at 5am on the turbo this morning, it made the subsequent poached eggs on wholemeal much tastier!
I’ll be very interested to see what the people who know the actual answer say
Give me a couple of years until I finish my degree and I might have some kind of idea.
Give me a couple of years until I finish my degree and I might have some kind of idea
I trust CH, i don;t actually know if he's full of crap or not, but he's damn convincing so i go with his knowledge 🙂
I do think most of the bases can be covered with a good MTB ride. There are always sections which require maximum efforts of different durations to get up/through.
When I was training to power I found 30s-3min intervals done at max effort were my most effective weapon.
Hey? When have you ever paid attention to anything I’ve said 🤣🤣
Any training advice is usually met with several furious Zwift races 🤣🤣
Ferrals, you can do Z2 fasted to speed up the reliance on fat as fuel. Doing that forces the body to utilise fat, which when a “habit” then means you are carrying a big fuel cell around with you.
I suppose that's what I've been doing when I commute to work in the morning, get up at 5am, put gear on, pedal for 2 hours without putting massive amounts of effort in, then nave brekkie.
Hey? When have you ever paid attention to anything I’ve said
I never said i'd follow it 🙂
Anybody got a free trail intro thingy for TR?
Anybody got a free trail intro thingy for TR?
Sent 👍🏻👍🏻
Got 👍👍
muchos gratitude
Well that didn't go well.
My coach had asked me to try caffeine shots (loading). I'd tried one at Haleigh where I'd had a disastrous race with limited HR, but I was ill the day before but assumed it was that.
So on a scorchio day - 27 degrees - I was looking forward to the MSG Race at Phoenix Bike Park. Great course, I enjoyed the practice lap. I almost forgot to down the caffeine shot so it was late, and I expected it to kick in about 15 mins into the race. I got the start I wanted, holding back my sprint to sit about 10th with the leaders intending to sit on and calm down until the 2nd lap. However, it all went wrong 15 minutes later and on the second lap big style.
Suddenly I had nothing. Real suddenly like boom, gone. I was sitting on the bike watching the riders in front pull away and thinking, WTF... I glanced down at my Garmin to see my HR at 154 and falling - I usually race between 160-170. It carried on falling until on lap 4 when it was done to 132, bordering on high Z2 for me and I was dismayed but the reason it happened has become clear. I tried a few efforts but was limited, and was forced to sit for two more lap whilst people came past me with no fight at all and I eventually finished 35 of 41 - about 15 places down from my usual level of competition. And I've got pretty bad sunburn.
I've just read 2 articles on the matter which states that Caffeine loads more fat cells into your blood stream delaying use of Glycogen. Hold on though, for a 90 min XCO, I need all my Glycogen! So I'm guessing the caffeine shot has pushed the Glycogen to one side and forced me to defer to fat cells, hence my experience.
Well, no more caffeine shots in XCO for me!
I always try different gels etc. outside of racing first.
however are you sure it wasn't just the heat? I had a race in 30 deg and little shade last year when I had similar just from going off as if it was 20deg and after two laps 'computer says no.'
Maybe? This same race last year was 31 degrees, and I came 19th. I made extensive efforts to be hydrated using the same as last year, no change in products.
A little more analysis shows actually I'm a bit closer to many people than I was last year, yet there's lots of names I don't know, probably practising for the Nationals in a months time.
Results are on timelaps if anyone wants to have a gander at the top 20 and see of they recognise some nationals names, I mean there is Roger Fowkes for example... My HR does goes distinctly downward direction, maybe just a bad day in the office.
It must be highly likely that at least ten extra fast people turned up to practice the course prior to the nationals in a few weeks time. That would account for a lot.
It should also be noted that your race had the fastest winning time of the lot including sport and elite/expert!
xc gaining popularity, a sunny, dry day, and a nationals course? That would certainly help account for finishing position.
So then looking at your times, like you said, you just fell off the cliff after lap 1. Either you simply went too hard on this lap and blew up, but it doesn’t sound like you did from your description, or those caffeine shots are indeed messing your system up. What was your average heart rate for the race, and your max and min?
This year: Average 157. Max 173 (on the start), Min 132.
Last year: Average 169, Max 176, Min 161.
Last race 3 weeks ago (no caffeine shot) for comparison is interesting - Average 160, Max 169 and Min 155.
Seems my heart isn’t working so hard this a year, not sure if that’s good or bad. One thing I’m thinking about, is the “top end” differential that I think Ferrals mentioned could be lost with training specifically to Marathons - I remembered yesterday having the worst of my issues in the tight twisty section - just not being able to “fire out” of bends, yet over the two years yesterday I picked up a Strava PB on the railway section - a long straight which I remember knocking into a big gear and grinding to calm my legs down.
Its more annoying as despite by “easier” week my coach had me put on some small sprints over the course of my training this week to get my legs firing again, to no avail obvs.
Anyway, constant disappointment at the moment is proving a bit hard to bear. 5 months coached a shitty winter and worse performances.
Still, I’ve an enjoyable week at BeMC this coming week evening if I just ride for enjoyment perhaps with an aim to complete the 3 days, so lets focus on that.
In a bizarre way I may actually move up the grid in the Eastern league. There were quite a few regular no shows - a whole row in front of me. Shows that finishing rather than quitting - which some did - despite the angst is the way to go.
Do you ride with power, Kryton? I would have thought that the HR is pretty meaningless without knowing what the relative power output is, if you're trying to make comparisons. You say you've been focused on a lot Z2 work and steady state stuff, so the effort (HR) required for the same power output is likely to be lower?
I had a tough day at the Gorrick yesterday; great 8 mile singletrack loop but starting cramping really badly after 2 laps and so the remaining 3 were pretty hard work! Always disappointing not to go as well as you think you can, but we all have not so good days.
I don’t on the MTB John_l, but a good point you’ve made there. I can only go by Strava estimates which we know lack accuracy but for comparison is 161w Average yesterday verses 167w last year. I suspect I race higher than that... but still.
ive not really had a good day yet this year which is challenging mentally, that’s all.
Does your coach read this thread?
I think it all boils down to the letters C, B and A. Until you’ve reached an A race in your plan then you can’t judge anything.
So if they were C races- bank the TSS and the experience and move on.
Perhaps tell your coach that you are insecure and they can incorporate some objective testing.
Timed Zwift loops on the Zwift TT bike are perfect- pretty much as objective as you can possibly get and more fun than just measuring power.
Kryton - I think you need to stop analysing every single thing you do...believe me, it's not healthy...take it from a man who's been there and done it. After the National race at Dalby in 2017 where I literally got off my bike and walked away, someone recommended the book 'The Chimp Paradox' to me. I can't say it 100% helped but I haven't had a DNF for anything other than a mechanical or crash since.
Personally, I train to power...be it on the turbo, the road or the MTB. For racing I make sure I can't see what my power output (or anything other than lap time) is because I know it gets into my head and that usually means bad things. I know for a fact that I'm riding better, faster and with my power than I ever have, yet I'm still only finishing pretty much exactly where I did last year. Most of this is due to the level of competition. The Vets XCO category is probably THE most competitive category there is. We're up against ex Olympians, Commonwealth Games and World Cup racers and those that didn't go to that level are still mixing it up with the best of them.
Now, this but may not sound good, but I'm going to say it anyway...I'm not overly convinced you and your coach are suited to each other. Find someone that understands you isn't always easy but my recommendation would be to look at a change in coach. Obviously I don't suggest a nasty split, just an amicable agreement that you need to try something different to find what works. You can always go back to him/her if you feel they're better for you than anyone else.
As a side....what length cranks do you run??? I'll probably be selling my XTR and Stages power meter set up do to sponsor conflicts. I have the race AND the trail versions however, they're 170mm so maybe a little too short for you!
Now, all that said....have fun! Pick someone close to you in the pecking order and use them as a target for improvement and then once you regularly beat them, move on to the next target. Stop being disheartened and focus on the things that you did well and did right. A glass half empty mentality will just breed more negativity. Look at the positives and the opposite will apply
Thanks Gaz. A lot makes sense, especially seeing as I was quite happy following you most of the first lap.
It is getting to me a bit. As said before there are improvements in other areas of my riding - mainly endurance and power on long climbs. I had a great day yesterday watching Jnr come 9th in his race, until mine. I guess I need to knock off the moaning as you say, it’s just painful when your going backwards and I need to express myself I guess. I have read the chimp paradox although not applied it, and actually I’ve just finished some CBT for fear of flying which resulted in a positive return trip from Vancouver, I think you are right and I need to put those learnings into my “race head” and get positive.
I don’t think my coach is the issue. He’s pretty good to me, seems to spot my strong/weak areas and is trying to change up my taper weeks as I didn’t respond well to doing sod all. We’ve tested and he sees my rider profile, we are testing again in June. I will no doubt be getting a call from him tomorrow based on my hr and performance data.
I felt great Saturday on a short pre race warm up to numbers and feeling very good. I felt good on the start, reigning in a bigger sprint behind you and defending / taking a couple of places as I followed you through the B line through the start. Continued to ride well then as we came up to the main field the second time to go through under the bridge for the end of the lap I started fading... I am targeting Paul Coulson though, we are close although for the reasons above he finished 5 mins in front of me yesterday.
Thanks for the offer on the cranks, I’m not really on a position to splash out at the moment.
I noticed you sat in the sun yesterday...thats not going to help!
My plan yesterday was to sit in for lap 1 and maybe lap 2 depending on position before working my way forward...it didn't go to plan because my rear brake failed on the A line on lap one and I had a pretty big crash. I almost get back on the bike and carried on but i'd taken a big bang to the helmet which left quite a dent so I thought better of it! It definitely hasn't affected my motivation though! Far from it!!!!
Personally, I know my place is top 10 but I make sure I try not to think about where I am during the race. Like I said, try turning all of your data off so you can't see it because I assure you, that will get into your head and is almost impossible to recover from once its there. I've seen some of the pros actually tape over their screen during their race so that they can't see anything...I just have my screen showing total time and lap time. That way, I race on feel rather than data.....give it a go....
If you need to chat about it, you know where I am at the races!
Well I can honestly say I'm enjoying not racing.
I could have rocked up to G100 and pissed myself off but instead did a 4hr Z2 Road loop on the MTB. My season will start as most are finishing and the time off just ticking over has some me good.
I salute Kryton. "every time a friend of mine succeeds a little inside me dies" I dread hearing of his success but I fear its inevitable.