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Anyone at the first round of the Midlands series at Swynnerton next weekend? Really enjoyed the course last year but remember thinking it'd be deadly if it was even slightly damp.... fingers crossed for a dust fest like last year.
I'm placing the ego aside and treating it as a training race so I'll no doubt be bringing up the rear! It falls on the last day of a 3 week training block, oh joy. The following week I will be tapering for Dalby Forest Nationals.
Is it james?
Yeah I'm hoping to go. Yeah last year was super dry.
Crank it race at Kendal also on the same day
Kryton57 - just reading your earlier points I would definately consider racing less, last year I had a similar problem where I lost so much fitness every race weekend as you only generate 100-130TSS/race whereas you can use the weekend for volume and use mid week sessions for intensity. Therefore I am only doing Nationals (XC) this year and try and retain the marathon championship in GV.
The CTL drop that Padkinson mentions is very real and takes two weeks or more to build back up. I also find that going into a race tired is a disaster as it does my head in mentally, I would rather not race than turn up carrying a high level of fatique as that will affect me for the next few races. I have enough problem getting decent results without turning up knackered!
I did about twenty races last year including the six stages of Andalucia, this year I will do only about 13 or 14 (i.e 6 in Andalucia, 5 National series, 1 marathon and 1 Nat champs) in the hope of retaining more CTL/fitness later in the season. This is a big change for me and sadly means that I won't see my son racing in the Midlands series which was a huge consdieration for me but I see it as the only way to turn up on the line prepared to the best of my (limited) abilities.
@sefton Yep that's me. Just noticed Crank It on the same day. Any ideas what that course is like?
I think I raced 13 times last year. I was knackered by Mid June but only really started any form of training in the January, even then it wasn't structured. I'd taper a bit for every race too and then really smash the riding between races in a bid to get the CTL back up. Big mistake. Lesson learnt that you can't be on form all season long. You need to pick a few key races to taper for and not worry too much about the rest.
This time I started structured training in October to give me a decent base fitness that will hopefull allow me to retain more fitness throughout the season. In addition to this I'm just prioriting the 5 National Rounds and maybe few "short" tapers at some of the other series events that I enjoy.
Not sure...I think it could be a new venue?
That's a lot of racing...but I seem to remember you had some great results?
You'll do well then this season with the changes you've made I reckon.
I've only ever done full cx seasons which can be often weekly racing...but I guess most competitor's are in the same boat. But that used to kind of feel like treading water with regards to training, racing and recovering.
I've been looking at the Midlands with the odd midweek or summer cx. And maybe the mtb marathon late in the season.
Been training since December (mostly in the bloody loft)
Good luck
Kryton57 – just reading your earlier points I would definately consider racing less
I very much appreciate your advice but I'm coached, so B/C races are there within the merits of my plan/tss/CTL or will be removed as appropriate.
I'm adamant that I won't deviate from my coaches advice - I want to be sure I know if it "works" or not this season, to decide whether continue or return to self training.
Kryton57 - understand completely, it took me and my coach over two years to understand what worked for me, never easy as we are all different!
Good luck with it and hope to meet you at a race some time.
I’ve got a few observations from my year so far:
After 3 years of coach led training I’ve gone solo this year and have gone old school by just riding my bike lots, resting when tired and then planning the next bunch of rides to try include something a little more epic each time (more elevation, greater distance, exploring new areas etc). I’m using the old race for full on intensity and I often attend a Crit training session too for some max efforts. Other than that the intensity comes from racing my mates up the odd hill but largely the majority of riding is done at a conversational pace. I keep track of my ctl etc and so far this season I’m feeling pretty fit.
The other main thing of interest is that I’ve done significant rides the day before races. 4-5hr z2 rides before a race, including the National at Sherwood may not seem optimal but I didn’t want that drop in ctl as discussed earlier. Turned out my races went just fine and I was happy with my performance, so I got a solid weekend in and had a fun time at the races. Goals this year are simple: be my best at a three day stage race in May then be really strong for the nat champs in July.
As a final note I’d like to add that I’ve been training with Kryton for over a year now. He’s made significant progress in that time both physically but more importantly in how he paces his efforts. He’s learning from his coached interval sessions how the body works and how energy is limited and must be used optimally. When he says he’s ‘sliding down the results table’, what he should say is that he did the first race with a stomach upset and missed the second round. Therefore absolutely no conclusions can be drawn yet.
Something else:
It’s my conclusion that training models based on what the pros do are not suitable for amateurs. The pros can put in big training rides during the week then rest a day or two before the weekend race. For the vast majority of us we get over half our training in at the weekend as that is when we have the time to do it. Loosing this weekend volume in order to rest for a race can make progress near impossible. Therefore prioritising certain races and training through others is a necessary evil and you just got to put your ego away some of the time. Get one good result at a key race and you can dine off that for ever. No one remembers the other, less impressive performances.
Well I won't repeat what I put on the Scott Marathon thread but the training is working. If i removed a mistaken diversion from my Garmin time I've ridden a 2018 mudfest vs a 2017 dry dusty trails 12 mins faster. Followed my coaches advise and rode to my zones, riding all the climbs at 90% FTP.
I'd love to say more but I'm going to sleep now, that was a pretty epic 60k 1500m. Night...
Re-scheduled Gorrick Spring XC yesterday at Frimley. Almost turned round on the M23 heading up there it was so wet and horrible and couldn't believe it when bikes and riders were coming back from earlier races completely clean!
Brilliantly twisty and superbly draining course with nowhere to rest made for pretty close racing compared to the previous round. 7th again though - need to get more confidence off the start to race to stay with the lead group.
I was one of those clean ones at the Gorrick yesterday! I raced in Vet + and it was dry until halfway through my last lap. It was a great course, relentlessly twisting, and as you say John, nowhere to rest, even drink! Really enjoyed it, especially the lack of any bike cleaning when I got home!
Anyone doing the crank it race this Sunday in Kendal? I might as I'm already in the lakes on saturday/Sunday...Would be closer than the 1st Midlands round
Will be there, watching my super fast roadie mate disappear into the distance, haven't raced a bike for two years and not xc since the last wildboar 24, haven't trained and a stone over racing weight. I reckon I'll win it. ;P
I was just going to post a link to my blog, but I can't be arsed to finish it so I'll put a wee update on here.
Last Sunday I was in the middle of France (no joke, it's really in the middle of nowhere), for the first UCI marathon series race of the year: Roc Laissagais. Being the first one means all the pros show up to make it absolutely brutal - the podium in the end was made up of 3 ex-world champs and the current euro champ!
The course wasn't too different from what you could get in the UK, 90km with 3500m ascent, and flowing, sometimes rocky descents with the odd bit of mud. It all kicked off pretty quickly on the first climb, and I settled into a decent group, and felt fairly strong for the first 2 hours. As always, I was getting frustrated with the euro riders' descending - kamikaze on the fast fireroads, and sedately awkward on the singletrack. I've come up with strategies to handle this though, basically letting myself get dropped before any significant descents, and coming back to the group on the easy bit!
At the halfway mark it began to dawn on me that I'd mistaken poor pacing for strength, and was really starting to suffer. At one point I dropped a clif blok (gummy energy sweet thing) on the floor and very nearly went back to get it! My team-mate Tim came past at about the 3.5 hour mark, demonstrating the proper pacing that his experience in these things gives, fully showing me up as a hot-headed millennial fool. Coming into the last climb I thought it'd be relatively smooth sailing, but it ended up being one of the 20 minutes of my life, as the organisers had chosen to send us up a near vertical grassy wall into a 80km/h headwind. When I got Sram Eagle I never thought I'd use the 32x50, but this had me pawing at the bars for a lower gear the whole climb.
Luckily it seemed like everyone else was suffering just as badly (except Tim of course, who made up about 10 positions in the last 45 minutes, including one bloke who allegedly threw his bike across the field, while exhausting his vocabulary of French swear words), so I was able to maintain position.
I came across the line in 57th overall from a field of 178, and 4th under 23. I'm fairly happy with that, although it was far from my best performance, but at least I've learnt some valuable lessons before the european champs next weekend.
Stats:
5:19:55 race time
3225m recorded climbing
272w normalized power
156bpm av. HR
342 TSS
367 HRTSS
22148 crank revolutions
72 minutes spent climbing gradients of 10% and above
969 VAM average ascent speed
1 crash
Eek. Sounds tough!
Well I know I’m focusing on Marathons but I’d hoped to be fitter than that. Raced MSG at Lee Valley today and although I got a great start going into the first bend from 30th on the grid in about 5th, I quickly faded and ended up 23rd.
Felt like massively hard work, and although my overall pace was up by 0.3km vs 2017 (21st), my HR was down by 7bpm average. Tired? Don’t know. I just felt I was suffering more than others. Bit disappointed TBH. The only difference was I decided to take the Spark rather than my HT which was a please to ride.
@padkinson awesome result fella. Sounds like you’ve learnt a lot from it. Good luck next weekend.
I raced at Swynnerton today for Midlands series round 1. Absolute carnage, total mudbath. I’ve never tried to ride through so much mud before, not even in a CX race. Not sure the race should have happened in all honesty, especially watching all the cars getting towed off the field in the end. Wouldn’t be surprised if people were loosing their bumpers to the mud monster to try and get out. Bit ridiculous really.
Or perhaps I’m sulking a bit because I DNF’d. Had a good first lap, well paced and feeling reasonably good. Second lap I lost my gears and ended up single speeding it in the smallest cog. It’s a hilly course so ended up pushing up most of the climbs before calling it a day at the end of lap 2 just as the rain started coming down again. Boooo
Nationals Round 2 at Dalby next weekend. Rumour has it that it’s actually pretty dry up there! YES!
We raced in the morning at the Midlands in vets so didn't get the rain but it was still very muddy. In comparison to r8jimbob88 I had a right laugh, yes there was a lot of mud and couldn't really 'race' parts of it but some of the course was great fun fast and flowing. Helps the mood of the day that my wife got 2nd in Vets !
However smacked my rear derailleur on a stump in a off piste overtake on the third lap, and then spent the next few minutes trying to remember how to reset di2 but apart from that not a missed shift in all that mud, lost the group I was with and then became a bit Billy on the last lap.
Legs were still a bit battered from doing the Scott Marathon last weekend and with Dalby this weekend hope can recover in time, might have to take the train rather than ride in to work. Typical as its going to be sunny...
Just looked at the results for the Midlands, the fastest Vet was faster than the first placed Elite !
Morning all, my lad is talking about going to Dalby at the weekend, \we've never been . What's the deal with Camping, is there any on site, or is it find a local camp site.
Sorry to ask but the website is a bit ..
Cheers
Paul
There's camping at the venue, but last year they were coming round asking for £5 to stay in a field with no drinking water supply! If I was going this year I'd probably tell them to sod off and camp in the car park.
My team mate Will Lewis won Expert Cat at Midlands yesterday. Not only that, he battered the Elites too so technically won that one as well! He finised over a minute ahead of the next rider. He's a very tallented rider with some serious w/kg going on.
Anyone else in for Southern XC at Checkendon on the 29th then ? Can't wait now, just want to get on with it and hit some fun woods 🙂
First round of the Welsh xc series at Pembrey for me next weekend. First xc race of the year for me. Though currently only 3 entered in sport - any avid points chasers would be well worth thinking about racing the Welsh series!
Pretty irritated at the moment though as I've not ridden my bike in two weeks due to work and illness and currently still ill. Seem to be on the mend so hoping will be able to ride by tues or weds. Anyone care to chip in on what sort of efforts to do this week once I am feeling better so I'm most race ready? Obviously no point in tapering as I've nothing to taper form. My current thoughts are to hope to do a couple of easy spins on tues and weds and then do a proper race style effort on Thurs to try and shock my system into rembering what hard work feels like before a rest day on friday and my standard hour of openers on sat.
Less than 1 week now for both me and my boy to get racing again.
Thought it was wise to get his Whyte tubeless, as he's out after me and i'm not sure how long after me, if he throws a puncture for example, i may not have time to repair it.
Tried with his current WTB's but they're wired and a loose fit on the rims, they were simply not going up no matter that i did. Bought him a Conti Race King tubeless, it went up OK. I don't think the rims are ideal for Tubeless, but i got there on the 3rd effort. Had to whip the valve core out and hit it hard with the Airshot. But it's up.
I've got a Geax Saguro arriving in the next couple of days to stick on the rear, so he'll be fully Tubeless for the weekend.
My Whyte T-130 has a new bottom Bracket after i found the driveside spacer was split somehow. I only fitted the BB recently but i'd been getting noises from the front when on pedalling. I tried pedals, crankset etc all swapping, but thought "it can't be the BB, i only recently replaced it".... Whether it's fully resolved the noises i don't know as not ridden in anger yet, only a quick test. But the spacer being split and dirt/grime would't have helped for sure. Apart from that, the T-130 is good to go and ready. Got a week of alternate days of riding, along with a Swimathon on Sat with my lad. So trying to rest the legs up a bit. Then go all out for my assault on the top 30 😀
I raced Nationals at Dalby this weekend. The weekend started as one of the worst possible and turned into one of the best!
I did one lap on Saturday practice and my Freehub bearings exploded... spent several hours and 80 miles driving around to try and find some replacements. The damaged bearings had damaged the Freehub body though and an internal shim had worn meaning that I could only finger tighten the hub endcaps otherwise the whole rear wheel seized up. The mechanic had the dremel out and all sorts trying to machine things into the right shape!
Spent the rest of Saturday sulking and a bad nights sleep followed (still sulking). Figured I could try and race on it and see how far I could get before it failed again, which was highly likely. I couldn’t back pedal for a start.
My friend messaged me Sunday morning (I was in a local Airbnb and he was camping on site) and said someone had a spare wheel I could borrow! Yes!!!! I got there to meet a very kind chap who lent me his “spare” Enve M50 with Chris’s king hub and XTR cassette! The race was on....
Had a bad start, couldn’t get clipped in and quickly fell way down the field and was one of the last into the singletrack which was far from ideal. I managed to pull back a number of places through out the race but most importantly I beat my number 1 nemesis by 20 seconds at the end! Think I rolled over he line in 19th Expert cat out of 33. I was hoping for a top half finish but that didn’t happen and I don’t give a damn. It was one of the most fun races I’ve ever done. Absolutely cracking day in the end.
Just need to sort this crappy Freehub out now.... might race Parkwood in Sheffield next weekend on my On One 45650b (it’d be rude not to really!) and hope to get my Scalpel back rolling before Glentress.
Nice one! Pretty lucky on the wheel! I love Dalby, such a great course, not wild on the rocky gully bit of worry gill but the rest of it is ace
Not XC racing as such, more flogging my guts out for a considerable amount of time; I'm off to Ten Under The Ben this weekend and I entering Solo so pretty much XCM+++
The training has gone pretty well, with my mileage to date well up on previous years and pretty much where I wanted it to be in preparation for my main event this year the WEMBO Euro 24hr Solo Champs in Slovakia this June.
I don't really know what to expect in Scotland as I've never ridden there, but on chatting to a few people and looking at the course from last year a lap of about 16km with around 300m of climbing. So a coupel fo km shorter than a lap of the red at Llandegla with a bit less climbing, I'm hoping to do a lap an hour, give or take, so if all goes well that'll be 10 laps.
Bit of an epic drive up there on Friday.
If you're going give me a shout.
Race day! Checkendon. Just bumping this donuts easier to find later on. Despite appearances, I think we're ready. He's Hn the sofa watching Fortnite videos, I'm watching the cycling from yesterday. Off to get kitted up shortly and load the car etc.
Pre race cake must be allowed!
Forgot to write anything about Dalby! Had a great race, coming into it with little training due to shoulder injury. Snapped a chain on lap 1 and burped a tyre on lap 3, meaning I wasn't really looking for a result, more to have fun and I did that.
Write up here:
http://paleoracing.co.uk/2018/04/23/race-report-national-xc-2-dalby-forest/
Well that's the day done up at Checkendon. THe bikes are both washed, cleaned and lubed and both of us are showered and changed and now relaxing.
The day started OK, we both had breakfast and got there at the right time, got our race numbers fitted and off we went for some testing. We had a bit of a disaster out testing as my lads bike threw a wobbly and he couldn't turn the cranks several times. Luckily it was only down to it being a mud-fest and his bike clogging up, i think around the chainguide area, it uses a Bionicon type C guide on the lower swingarm. Once that was all cleaned and sorted by John from Banjo Cycles, it was golden ! I couldn't sort myself as my race was about to start !
I'd met up with Tiger/Magnetodog from Singletrackworld forum and we'd chatted a bit and were both eager. I was slightly ahead of him on the line i think due to when i entered. But that was all i saw of him as within about 40s of the race start he'd gone past me and was off and away. We ended up in a bit of a bottleneck at the entry to the woods which held us up a bit, but not a lot you can do about that sometimes. The course was in the reverse layout from last year, with other bits added/removed. It was though a bit of a mud-fest due to the recent rains. Bit of a shame there.
It made bike handling REALLY hard and i was all over the place at times. On the bike, foot down, hanging round corners and taking some VERY slowly. Over the course of lap1 i think 4 people passed me, but i also passed 3 others, it was DAMN hard as you'd expect for an XC race, that's just how they are. I didn't have my HR monitor on, but HIGH is the answer to that. Over the line we had 2 in front and a bunch of 2-3 not too far behind. Slipping and sliding up the grass start finish straight into the woods.
Lap 2 i had a couple of decent battles, there were sections where the lads around me were quicker and sections where i'd blow them away... but then they'd be right back on my wheel 3-4 mins later. But all went OK, i stepped off the bike on a tricky muddy rooty bit and lost 10-15s on the guy ahead... I'd been closing on him a few times. But i then passed him on the long grassy section. Phew.
Onto lap 3 and the world all went horrifically pear shaped for me. Not sure if it was the fatigue, the effort, the mud or what, but i was like Bambi ! Skating about like i'd never ridden a bike beofre. I think i stepped off the bike 3-4 times and had 1 decent crash in the mud. Sadly the fella i was hanging with had pulled away now. Even sadder was the fact that the 2 guys behind had closed up. 1 big Geordie fella and a lightweight southern fella. The Geordie went past on the night grass section like i wasn't moving, big legs on him and he had some power...
Onto lap 4 and it was back into battle mode.. I'd closed on the fella in front and passed him.. but then he re-passed me ! Geordie fella came past again with power and i spent the next 5-10 mins on his wheel in the woods, soft pedalling and recovering, it's SO much easier sometimes to follow. But there's no passing places on this bit so i just hung on his wheel. The other guy was right on my wheel too. Over the fieldy section at the end was boggy mud, Geordie took the wrong line choice and both of us shot through the gap. Sadly for me, 3rd guy says "Passing on the right", so i let him have that. No point arguing, he soon proved he was quicker than me. Geordie fella was out of sight behind when in the woods, but the last wood sections seemed my weakest point.
I made a point of getting out of the saddle a few times exiting slow corners, picking up the speed.
Out of the woods for the final time, the guy in front was 50-70m ahead, i wasn't going to make that ground up... So i looked back to see where Geordie was, he was far enough, but that depends if you class 40m behind as 'enough'... I looked as i entered the last corner, it's a bit of hairpin so you can work out where the competition is.. He was fractionally closer, but not THAT close.... But still i got out of the saddle and powered up to the line for about 7,000,000th place 🙂
I have no idea what my placing was, or how many was in the field in honesty, but it was good fun in the woods and a cracking workout and pushing myself as hard as possible.
My boy was next up... His was a 20min race and 50+ riders in his Cat. He got a decent enough start, was going well... But i think based upon his reports, he was holding back a little 🙂 He certainly didn't look like it though. Me and Tiger/Magnetodog were able to see his live timings and we checked each lap.
He ended up with a 29th in his field 🙂 Which was good.
More than that though, he seemed to enjoy it, which is all we want really. 🙂
Whether he'll do the next once, i'm not so sure... Maybe 🙂 But he'll still be doing his long 25 miler for Cancer Research that's for sure.
What's next for me.... Dunno.... Recovery first 🙂 We'll then see what happens for the next plan 🙂
[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/962/26910524287_f84da0946b_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/962/26910524287_f84da0946b_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/GZZtjF ]2018-04-29_02-50-24[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr
In the middle, orangey helmet, green bike.
Enjoyed my morning at Checkendon.
8th in the Open which I'm pleased with, it was a tough course with no respite being completely flat! Also the mud and wet grass just sucked the speed out of everything.
Lost the use of gears on the 2nd lap, can't think why.
Somewhere in there is a crank
[img] 
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and a rear mech.
[img] 
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Took ages to clean.
Fantastic riding fella, massively impressed!
I was up at The Nevis Range trails for Ten Under the Ben this weekend, went up on on Friday as it's a 6 hour drive.
Set up camp with 2 of my team mates and 2 other guys I ride with regularly, all of us in solo split between Senior and my class Veteran.
It was bloody freezing on Friday night, we're talking full length PJ's a hoodie and a woolly hat & socks in the tent!
Woke up to a lovely clear morning, standard levels of pre-race faff mainly centred around what to wear, it was bibs, SS jersey & base layer, arm & leg warmers.
At around 9:15 we lined up ready for the off, the first lap was led out by a pickup carrying a lad playing various Scottish standards on the bag pipes and a couple of enduro motorbikes, firstly along the road and off onto a gravel track heading straight towards Ben Nevis. The views were spectacular to say the least.
The pace was pretty controlled until the gravel track when as usual all hell breaks loose with pair and team riders, along with some of the usual "I'm awesomely fast crew" making their way to front and the soloists undergoing the standard natural selection process.
The first lap was also a bit shorter at about 15km missing out some of the techy features to allow the field to string out, so I rattled that off in 52 mins.
The race then settled down to a mixture of long fire road / gravel track climbs interspersed with tech single track climbs and descents, with one proper steep bottom gear climb.
The laps were around 17km each with just over 400m of climbing and in the nice spring weather all was going great, a report came in that I was sat in 6th place in Vets at the halfway mark, so I kept tapping out the laps and then at about 6pm the temperature dropped and the heavens opened. I was typically as far from the pits as possible so I got rather cold and wet, at the end of the lap I stopped, put on winter gloves and a jacket and set off knowing that it would be my 9th and final lap.
Given the conditions and the fact I was frozen to the bone and visibly shaking (even with the winter gear on), my last lap was 9 mins slower than the previous one. But it turns out that after 10 hours and 36 minutes, 153km and just shy of 4000m of climbing I'd ridden my way to 4th placed Vet and 14th overall in Solo, well chuffed is an understatement.
Fantastic! Congratulations!
Well done - to both Steve’s!
Wow, great effort Steve. I can't even imagine being on a bike for that long, let alone racing!
First xc race of the year for me at Pembrey for round 1 of the Welsh mtb series, fand the first time my hr has gone over 180 this year. Oof it was brutal. Pan flat, bone dry with lots of twisty singletrack meant no recovery and very fast racing - my average hr was 179 which is over my normal cx effort. Short laps meant even though we did 6 it was only 1hr 10ish for me. Had a good first 4 laps but I popped in the fifth and lost the person I'd been neck and neck with. I overdid the sighting laps and was tired before the start then didn't bother to warm up which didn't help matters but it was too sunny not too. 7th out of 11 in my cat which isn't great but I beat 2 of the 3 people I wanted to beat. Looking forward to the next one - will just have to train a bit more first!
Good work Ferrals.
Can anyone tell me about the conditions at Minley at the moment, I'm considering heading darn sarf for the Gorrick 100 next weekend, but to be honest I won't bother if it's anything like the photos from Checkenden up there.
different terrain on the Gorrick areas - sandy means it doesn't clog, so you can always ride......but if wet might eat brake pads and drivetrains.
Anyone else feel seriously flat the day after a race? Not just fatigue, I guess its the adrenaline and what other chemicals your body uses while racing being depleted plus the few days before a race you're looin forward to it, then you reset to the next one not being for a month.
My constant critical self-reflection doesnt help matters either [embarrrased smilie]
Anyone else feel seriously flat the day after a race? Not just fatigue, I guess its the adrenaline and what other chemicals your body uses while racing being depleted plus the few days before a race you’re looin forward to it, then you reset to the next one not being for a month.
Yes
My constant critical self-reflection
For this reason.
LOL i was going to post the exact same thing today but thought you'd abuse me on here.
I feel VERY much like that today. Self-reflection is again 100% then reason. But looking at the times of people ahead of me and thinking back on the race i can't really see where i could have picked up more than 1-2 places TOPS. I couldn't have worked and pushed any harder in truth, i was really giving it my all. Apart from the odd mistake that cost me say 45s over the race distance, i couldn't have placed any higher.
I feel i've trained well, worked hard... Apart from either losing more weight or totally transforming my ability... i think that position in the field is about all i can expect realistically. Possibly if i trained 'better' i'd pick up some places, but the back 1/3 of the bunch seems to be my hunting ground.