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[i]It's clear Froome has a turn of speed that Wiggins can't match[/i]
I wouldn't be so sure of that, Wiggins doesn't need to match it.
yeah that'd be good but wiggins will likely kick arse in the TT, how much potential time has froome already lost by having to stick with bradley on the climbs? We'll never know. I know it's a team event but being ferried around the whole tour by your team mates then kicking botty in the TTs to win seems a bit...mleh when there's another potential winner in the team.I would like to see Sky reach the point where they can drop 'team orders'
BTW how much team help did evans get last year? I only ever watch a bit of the tour but what i did see he seemed to be mostly on his own where as Cav last year (and bradley this year) was surrounded by the team and wouldn't have done nearly as well without them.
Aye but it is the modern way...gone are the romantic times when folk used to attack everyday and try and win every stage.
the other thing yo are forgetting is e dont know what effect it would have had on Froome to attack every day and how he would have recovered. Perhaps he can only attack because he has been "slowed" by nursing Brad. the team are also helping him.
the other issue is you build a team to let your strongest member win and the Wiggo strength is the TT and the rest is about not loosing time. in essence we will never know
seeing as how he does so far seem to be the better rider and presumably is being reigned in from stamping over everyone else to nurse bradley.
Indurain won his tours by doing this and to some degree so did LA though he could also win hilly days. as did Cuddles last year - Contador could do both
It is the best way to win these days if perhaps "unfair"
he is strong on the mountains so did not need help from his team - have a look on the flats to see where his team are- you build a team to help you with your weakest areahe seemed to be mostly on his own
Well, if BW is the best time trialler, it seems to make sense to make him the leader on a tour that's fairly heavy on TTs and light on big mountains. Maybe if it's more mountainous next year we'll see CF go for it.
It will be interesting to see what happens later in the tour with regards these two.
By the way, Mrs Grips is now getting into this which makes me happy, I get to explain cycling to her, although I know even less about it than I do cricket and rugby which I also had to explain to her after we were married 🙂
It obviously makes sense to stick to the plan for Sky to win as a team, but how good would it be if they let Froome and Wiggins to race against each other? There would obviously be a risk of letting Nibali in (which is why they won't do it), but it would suit everyone. Froome would get his chance, and Wiggins would be able to win without the doubt as to whether he was the best man or not. Does Wiggins really want that hanging over him?
I think if Froome had actually made the break he would have been allowed to go. Unfortunately everyone else in the group apart from Wiggins stuck with him, so all he would have done was bring their closest rival nearer to the yellow.If his break had worked and he'd dropped the group, leaving Brad with Nibbles, then I expect it would have been fine for him to catch up a few seconds on Brad.
The point is that Sky want yellow, and Froome dragging Nibbles closer to it is not what they want. Froome getting closer to it without helping his team's rivals would probably have been fine.
how much potential time has froome already lost by having to stick with bradley on the climbs? We'll never know. I know it's a team event but being ferried around the whole tour by your team mates then kicking botty in the TTs to win seems a bit...mleh when there's another potential winner in the team.
But he didn't though, Bradley had to stick with Froome erlier in the stage.
If BW hadn't then maybe...........
BW would have been in the group alone
CF would have been chaseing from a group further back
CF's 'attack' would just have been bridgeing the gap to BW's group and damage limitation on his standing relative to Nibbles.
Any GC contender would have needed help on the hills, that's why there's a team, if CF was leader then there's be another climber to pace him and we'd be having the same argument with different names.
I like Froome but some people here need to get a grip, just because he briefly dropped Wiggins near the end of a tough stage doesn't mean he's much stronger and the rightful leader/winner. Wiggins is thinking about getting to Paris, any TdF rider gradually loses form over the course of the race - why kill himself going into the red at the end of a stage when he gains no real advantage from doing so. Clearly he was put into difficulty but he didn't need to respond so we'll never know if he was able to.
There's a lot of is' buts and maybe's going on here.
[i]how good would it be if they let Froome and Wiggins to race against each other?[/i]
Destructive I would think and no good for team morale.
Perhaps the ds said to froome that if he was 100% sure he can drop nibali then go for it. The last thing he would want to do is drag nibali with him taking time out of wiggins lead.
Froome for Vuelta win.
They generally don't plan a race on the spot as it's happening. It's months of preparation.
Wiggo has won both the Dauphine and Paris-Nice this season. Froome has been ill or running over pensioners. Had Froome been pushing Wiggo earlier this season, added to last years Vuelta we may see a different plan from Sky. But we don't so they'll continue as they are (seems to be going pretty well).
Don't worry about Froome, he's 27 and has plenty of opportunities (this years Vuelta maybe), and Sky have a ready made team for him (to stay with). Wiggo's opportunity is now, he'll not have the legs in a year or two as Evans may have demonstrated yesterday.
Destructive I would think and no good for team morale.
Absolutely. My point was more about what it would be like for us spectators to watch, although I can understand why that won't really factor in the team's considerations.
The bigger point I think though is whether Wiggins wants this hanging over him. Anyone in the know will appreciate that it's a team sport and that his win will represent a win for the whole team, but nonetheless there'll always be a question over whether he was the most deserving. From a sporting point of view then surely it would be better for this doubt to be eliminated, and it seems to me there's only really one way to do that.
possibly but it will never happen.
hinault and le mond 1985 for example
Hinault did not repay the compliment in 86 when le mond - the team leader was repeatedly attacked by Hinault who lost to Le mond eventually.
http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/oct05/top25-19.html
I suspect that Froome knows brad is stronger overall [ just but it will be close] but not on the hills. We would end up with brad attacking him on the flats and that could result in both being worn out for the next lot of hills and Nibali winning.
that's kind of where I was coming from but TBH it's gonna be career suicide to give up being the 1st british(ish) man to win the tour.The bigger point I think though is whether Wiggins wants this hanging over him
yes jury is still out on whether froome is any better but has wiggins ever taken a turn upfront? the rest of the team are battering themselves at the front all day I'd expect the headman to be able to pull away at the end of the race. Like I said not seen a lot of the tour but I have twice seen froome lead wiggins up the majority of the hill finish and still have the legs to race off ahead of him for the line. could well be wiggins saving his legs when he can but it [i]might[/i] be froome is better.Wiggo dropped Froome on the hardest part an nursed him up
Froome is better at hill climbing but that is to where brad will win the race but it is where he can loose it.
if Froome was team leader that is where he would attack
Wiggo was upfront yesterday when Froome mini cracked and led the chase back to nibbles and when Froome rejoined [ could brad have attacked him then during his mini crack and would Froome have then had the legs and heart to respond] he then attacked
Vuleta [ tour of Spain] showed Froome is a far superior climber than Brad and would race differently to win.
i think if they attaced on the hills Brad would attack on the flats an they could burn each other out and neither win so Sky wont risk it.
i assume the stats from team Sky show wiggo to be the stronger over all or else they would support Froome as leader??
I am enjoying this one today - partly 'cos DM is in the break & mostly 'cos he's on my team!!!
I'd expect the headman to be able to pull away at the end of the race.
I'd expect the team to protect him til he plays his strong suit which is the TTs.
It's clear Froome has a turn of speed that Wiggins can't matchI wouldn't be so sure of that, Wiggins doesn't need to match it.
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Vlueta [ tour of Spain] showed Froome is a far superior climber than Brad and would race differently to win.
Wiggins has one climbing speed. He's obviously worked to increase that speed, but the 2009 TdeF Ventoux stage and the 2011 Vuelta showed he can "only" ride a climb like a TT. Interesting to see him cresting the climbs in the saddle with everyone else out of it.
Wiggins doesnt need to match it now as they are on the same team and Froome is working for him, but if this was a tour where all the contenders had teams helping them and they had to fight it out in the mountains (could have been the case if Mandy Schleck was racing) it would be a different matter. Froome (and therefore Sky) not winning the Vuelta was down to poor decision making by team bosses not releasing froome from service to an obviously weaker wiggins.
Football analogy. Final score 4 - 1. Losing team had a goal dubiously disallowed when 2 - 1 down. One argument says didn't matter, as winners won by 3 goals in the end. Counter is that a goal at that point would have made it 2 - 2 and changed the game.
Point is, if Froome was going for yellow and not working for Brad, the whole thing would be playing out differently, and we can never know what it would look like.
It'll be really sad if wiggins wins this and everyone says Froome should have had it.
Even sadder if froome himself starts to believe that.
Currently everything is going to plan for Sky. Everyone is prpeared and trained for their roles. Why should they change the plan unless it's not working?
I guess this is the unique and intriguing aspect of road racing - it's a team sport, but individuals take the podium.
It'll be really sad if wiggins wins this and everyone says Froome should have had it.
That sort of story creates controversy sells newspapers and magazines so it will almost certainly get printed.
Just seen the profile of the final climb on Sunday's stage- GULP.
[img] 
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Much steepness, something that Wiggo has struggled with in the past.
Nibbo and crazyFrog will no doubt look to attack on that one, and probably drop Bradley. Will Froome-dog go with them or pace his man up?
Not sure there's much pacing advantage that can be gained at the riding speed on those gradients.....
[img] [/img]
check the profile for final climb on sunday's stage.
Not one that Wiggo will favour, and Nibbo/Crazyfrog will likely drop him at the end, perhaps putting into doubt sky's 1-2 or will froome-dog be unleashed ? interesting.