Talk to me about Santa Cruz Chameleon?

Trek fuel?

Nah, done that. No need to revisit previous bikes.

Commencal META HT

In the long tradition of suggesting what I have chosen...

I just love it, so versatile, so maneuvrable and not even harsh on 2.6/2.8.

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I can't believe the price of that Chameleon. I have built mine for £1,300 out of far better new components. (now has the Ribble Revs).

Maybe have a few rides on a HT before you commit, so switched back to one after years on an enduro bike and it was certainly an eye opener (and teeth rattler!), I love it now but it definitely highlighted the weaknesses/laziness I’d picked up after 8 years of long travel full sus bikes.

What about something like a Moxie, or On One HT?
Ragley HTs are pretty nice (see the MmBop thread from a few days ago)
A friend has a newish Chameleon and loves it. I think his is a mullet at the mo, but he does say it’s quite stiff (as are the Commencals).

The Status 140 also sounds good and you loved the big one.

Scandal ticks some boxes and on a budget.

The worry on the Status is that it's a bit bulky for being different. Would it give me anything over the Slayer.

How about a Nukeproof Scout 290?

That Chameleon has dreadful spec for the money - recon / sx etc

Pro version of the Nukeproof is cheaper, has Lyriks / SLX etc

Yeah they've been considered. Not dismissed as such but Shimano seems to be their thing

No real issue with Shimano 12 speed drivetrains - slx is fine. I run both GX and Shimano and they both do the job. I’d say Shimano rear mechs need a bit of maintenance - but at some point the GX clutch will lose its mojo and go all flappy so it’s swings and roundabouts.

You could go frame only and build up something yourself - loads of alloy hardtail frames around and seemingly more bargains on stuff like forks - been a load of lyriks discounted popping up on adverts the last few months. On a hardtail a take off 36 rhythm / 36 performance would also do a job.

Just to add - I wouldn’t take sx or nx over any Shimano 12 speed drivetrain either

I have mixed and matched. SLX 12 mech + shifter with GX chain and NX cassette+cranks. Works solidly and will hopefully last and cheap consumables.

The Scout is a good shout, and building your own is so satisfying + gives a fairly customised and "unique" feel to the bike, even if it is placebo.

The pre-built isn't very good value from Stif.

You can get a very nice bike for less if you go frame up.
E.g. Charger 2.1 Pike or Lyrik Ultimates for ~£500, SLX drivetrain etc. If you live near where Bird Cycleworks are based (Hook) they've got loads of discounted bits.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/birdcycleworks

Could make most of a drivetrain and grab a fork.

Stif Squatch.

The Stif bikes are nice.

True and at least you get decent forks for your £2k.

Whilst on the subject of Bird how about the Zero 29?

Looks like for about £2.5k you could spec one with a Pike or Formula Selva R (very nice fork), dt swiss / Hope pro 5 wheelset, GX eagle (although rear mech currently out of stock), Code RSCs (or you could go G2 RE to save some money), maxxis assegai / dissector tyres and bird finishing kit with a 200mm dropper.

We've got both a Chameleon and Status 160- very different bikes.

The Chameleon is fun for messing around on tamer trails, as a mullet and with its steeper h/a its very reactive, but its not a LLS hardcore hardtail (I bought it as a frame, full builds look well overpriced).

The Status is great for playing around at bike parks and steep stuff, not so good when there is lots of peddling (not sure what if any difference the 140 makes).

I'd suggest you look at the Bird Zero 29, light, reactive and great on both tamer trails and steep stuff, mine is now with my daughters partner, an "enthusiastic" 100kg lad and its surviving the FoD downhills!
Its clearly different to your Slayer, good fun to ride, with the ability to spec it how you want from a great Company.

Canyon stoic?

https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/mountain-bikes/trail-bikes/stoic/stoic-4/3339.html

Lot of bike for the money. I bought the previous one a couple months ago when they were on offer, few spec changes but otherwise identical.

Had a scout before in 29 guise and think they’re excellent.

I’d be considering a Ragley Big Wig or perhaps a Kona Honzo ESD. I’ve dropped a Novyparts splug in the Revelation on my Big Wig which has made it much more controllable, might even go for a coil conversion on it too. Or sell the fork and drop a Fox in it.

I’m very tempted by the ESD though as would love to run a bike like that singlespeed.

You had a status before, so you know what to expect. That was only a year ago. With all your bike swaps you can appreciate that a hardtail will be a lot different to that. Like with the ebike thread, seems you are choosing bikes either on the deals you can get, or otherwise choosing bikes a bit randomly without too much thought? Maybe just thinking out aloud. If its a hardtail, the idea of a scout or a scandal would be my choice over the chameleon which is poor value for money. But if a smaller travel full susser, id got for a bird for vfm, else a mega from crc, or one of many decent second hand deals around on whatwver bike you like.

I apprecaite you say there is a budget to look after but given your spending in recent years and the fact you say you have spare tyres, wheels, brakes, cranks, cockpit and probably more why wouldnt you build a bike out of those parts, and buy just a frame and forks? Bird have pike ultimates for 499 on eBay, that and any decent hardtail frame would be a great start.

Maybe just thinking out aloud

Often yes 😁

Sometimes they come to happen, sometimes not. The Ebike had a lot of merit, right up until it didn't. But still slightly does.
This was a bit random, but I can't help finding the yellow ones very very nice.

Yeti Arc framesets are on offer at Bike tart for 1300. Still spendy but may give you less of a crossover build.

Pace RC529 mullets well. 2.8 on the back takes some of the sting out too.

We have 2 Chameleons in the household.

Mines the lesser spotted carbon frame and the wife has a 2022 alloy frame, both built from frame only purchases.

I’ve had many different hard tails over the years and to me the Chameleon just fits and feels right. Built with some nice kit, a Fox 34 130mm and non fashionable 27,5 plus wheels, it handles any terrain I wish to ride - mainly trail centre and peaks / Wales non jumpy type riding.

Admittedly I do wear rose tinted glasses because I have a nostalgic passion for Santa Cruz bikes as my first full suss frame was a new Superlight in 2000. They’ve stuck ever since.

The wife’s bike was built relatively cheap with low level SRAM but decent wheels. That too rides well and she uses it for bike packing in the main.

Happy to go into more details if needed but to surmise I’d say mine is the best hard tail I’ve had over 30 years.

I have the carbon chameleon.  I love it. I have two sets of wheels on light with schwalbe rocket racing Ralph & Ron’s and another with maxxis dhr/dhf.  It’s not super slack but it’s always good fun with a 120 pike and 29” wheels.  The light wheels make it like a xx race bike and the heavier ones more downcountry.

I ride mostly in the lakes and often prefer taking it out than my bigger bike, as it makes everything fun!

An Orange Crush MX version seems to tick a lot of boxes

https://www.sunsetmtb.co.uk/shop/index.php?product_id=11423&gclid=CjwKCAjwjMiiBhA4EiwAZe6jQ3g3xUmqXQUpi7QefozJYRQJIbc1W6Pjk9DK4WEX_3GL4l0Rw9x_ERoCu_0QAvD_BwE

cheap too. Plus externally routed cabling which is nice.

Any logical reason to avoid these ?

It's not exactly sexy is it?

It’s not exactly sexy is it?

Oh i dunno... it's got a fair bit of merit, right head angle, 12sp, decent forks, brakes, external cabling.. Ticks the mullet box... it's deffo 'different' enough to the Slayer that i can self-justify having both

they were selling those Chameleons during black friday for £1600. Even then they didnt scream value.

I enjoyed my Ragley Big Al when i had it.

Price looks good, I rode one for a few weeks, it felt very "mullety"in tracking round tight turns up and downhill. I'd fit a bigger rear tyre as the frame was quite harsh.

Few thoughts on the orange:

Geometry all looks good as does the fork choice on there.

Brakes are meh but think you have some spare codes.

Why have they put sx eagle on a hardtail of that rrp - it really is fit for the bin. If you go that route I’d ditch the mech and shifter and fit GX instead. Keep the cassette - it’s a bit heavy but it’s steel and should last a long time. If it’s an sx powerspline bb / crank maybe run it until you break it. They’re not meant to be very good.

Looking at the reach on the large I don’t think you’ll like that - it’s static 480mm so will get even longer under sag. Would think given your preference for reach that the medium is a better choice.

On the comment above about it not being very sexy I think it’s an ok looking hardtail actually. It’s not steel / boutique or anything - but decent. Might be quite fun with the smaller rear wheel than a full 29er - but the rear wheel will hang up more in ruts.

I find running a 2.6” tyre in the back of a hardtail makes it far more forgiving than a 2.3” one. Quite like a Forekaster (old one) / Rekon for big ish volume but fast rolling tread.

I have an Orange Crush 27.5" front and back and loves it.
A mate has a Orange Crush MX and also loves it.
Great bikes!

Ive also looked at the Arc, Chameleon and other frames of late . I did have a Meta ht and while being ace down hill it was a heavy pig going up . The Big Al on the other had was brilliant and if I do change thats where I will go back . The Ragley frames are well made and half the price of the SC Chameleon ..for me thats £400 saved for a good set of wheels or axs groupset .
The arc although very very nice isnt slack enough at 67o for my tastes and after the the demos of Yetis I did last year I dont fancy the paints chances

My hello dave is a beast. Good spec for the money. As others have said, 2.6 in the rear and it actually feels like it has a small bit of rear travel. Brilliant bike

The first thing I would do is ditch the SX and stick on NX or GX. Both work fine and if it’s your spare bike then no point spending a fortune on it until you know for sure if you’ll keep it or not. I’ve got NX 11 speed on my HT and it’s been faultless.

I have a slack (63.5*) full 29er HT and I’m tempted to mullet it and fit shorter cranks. If I sold it and bought something else it might be mullet or full 275 as I’m not an XC boy and enjoy whipping it around berms and DH more

Looks like the chat/ OP might have moved on, but another carbon Chameleon owner here - bought frame only, and I have mine built with 29 wheels and a 140mm Revelation and a mix of SLX and XT that I had already. Love it to bits, and rarely use my ‘big bike’ (Whyte S150) for anything other than occasional trail centre days. It was bought as a ‘do it all’ hardtail, and performs that function admirably. Carbon was an indulgence because it looked pretty.

Looks like the chat/ OP might have moved on

It's still in my head as a possible.. But usually if i'm going to click then i'd arguably have clicked by now. So it's likely to be a no. I'm away for the weekend as of today and busy so didn't want to have something going on or potentially getting delivered while away too.
It's still on my list of possibles but i'd say the Crush MX is potentially higher up the list and maybe even the Status 140.

I don’t think the status 140 is miles different from the Slayer is it? Would almost think you’d want a downcountry style fs to be different from the slayer - but then if it’s for mucking about in the woods mostly doing silly things on janky built features the hardtail would probably suit that more.

It would involve some patience but you could custom build a Marino hardtail frame so it’s steel and exactly what you’re after…although you’d hate the lack of communication from Marino 😝

Get something like this if you want to be different

I don’t think the status 140 is miles different from the Slayer is it? Would almost think you’d want a downcountry style fs to be different from the slayer – but then if it’s for mucking about in the woods mostly doing silly things on janky built features the hardtail would probably suit that more.

It would involve some patience but you could custom build a Marino hardtail frame so it’s steel and exactly what you’re after…although you’d hate the lack of communication from Marino

After a lovely ride this morning... i think a nice reasonable weight HT is the best plan. Whether the Orange Crust fits that bill in terms of weight is open to debate... but it's got the geometry, spec and wheels i fancy.. If it had a set of 36s it'd be even better.. but we can't have everything.

Get something like this if you want to be different

The Ford Fiesta ST of bicycles... i couldn't carry that off.

I've just built up a Chameleon as a do it all hardtail. Found a frame at a great price and built it up from a mix of secondhand and discounted new components. It came out MUCH cheaper than buying a complete. Managed to pick up some Fox 34's 130mm brand new for £400, and the frame was £650 already invisiframed, with MX and 29 dropouts.

weeksy
If it had a set of 36s it’d be even better.. but we can’t have everything.

Factory Grip2 36s in 140mm guise are half price on Wiggle, and EXTRA15 gets more off. I have a set, and delighted with them

They'd be ideal on your light HT.... or your Specialized 160mm Park Bike or whatever you settle on in between 🙂

I wouldn’t worry too much about really light weight - my hardtail for playing on when I don’t want the full suss experience is about it 30lb give or take.

Heavy steel frame (3.1kg with axle and seat lamp), Pike Ultimates, GX Eagle, Xm421’s on Erase components hubs (or I have a set of winter wheels that actually have hub seals that are a little heavier - Hope pro4 front and Superstar V6 rear hubs with xm481), codes, 2.6” tyres - albeit it has carbon cranks and bars to try and nip a bit of weight off.

It feels waaaay quicker than a coil spring enduro bike - just feel like sprinting everywhere on it.

In predictable STW-style, I'll throw the Bird Forge into the mix.  I've ridden/owned loads HT-wise from On One, Cotic, Whyte, Trek, Kinesis and was looking for something pretty versatile that could do longer XC rides, but also not get out of its depth too quickly on techy trails (ubiquitous up here in Aberdeenshire).  Bike Bothy did a cracking job, and were super-flexible on components, including allowing me to use wheels and a few other bits that I had lying spare.  So far used it for ski touring access use into the Cairngorms and local loops incl the new local trail centre, Tarland.  (it'll be at Nevis Range this weekend, if you want a closer look)

There are a load of very different riding hardtails out there.

Your size and weight are significant factors in how a HT frame will ride. For example, if you are over 6 foot and +200lbs, your frame will flex a lot more than if you were a little chap.

Also, chainstay length makes a big difference in how a bike rides. The SC Chameleon is 425mm at its shortest, which is very playful. Not as playful as an RSD Middlechild at 415mm but still in the short range. The Cotics are at the other end of the scale and come in at 444mm, which is much more stable for high-speed ploughing.

I have one of the new SC Chameleons in XL, which is fantastic. If you choose the 29er dropouts, you can drop the BB even lower with a mullet wheel. This will also slacken the head angle a little, which is cool.

I bought a frame and built it up to my spec - XT, 140mm Lyrics, Ibis wheels with Onyx Vesper rear hub, and Surly Sunrise Bars.

I had A chameleon 29er when they first came out in the really nice olive green / purple combo.

Notes on that bike. the basic bike is well quite basic. The 34 fox grip forks were ok but nothig better than ok the sram level brake looked cheap performed ok but felt a bit on or off.
Forks got upgraded to some reduced height Pikes and the brakes to some Hopes.
I had also bought both sets of rear drop outs and 2 sets of wheels so could run it as 29er or 27.5+ this was part of the appeal of the bike.
I ran it 29 first then 27.5+ with some 2.8 maxxxis tyres. I persevered for a long time with 27.5+ before admitting it really wasnt for me and took the fast rolling pace and some of the fun out of the bike.
Then.... i realised I had almost enough parts to build another bike, minus a frame. The new One-On Scandal came out with the usual on-one price cuts to get some chatter going about the new bikes, so i picked up a cheap Scandal frame.

Now the Scandal is a bit slacker than the Chameleon, not loads, but a bit. It isnt as well finished but its very similar.
So I put the scandal together with all the left over bits, and... well for me it was better.
Maybe not for everyone, but for what I was riding which is a bit of everything from biggish days in the Lakes to some bike packing it just rode a bit better. I think most of it was the slacker head angle as most of the geometry is similar.

Im no brand snob, so I kept the pikes and the hope brakes, put the original parts on the Chameleon and sold it on. Built the Scandal up with the Pikes and a second hand reverb dropper and as a 29er it was a hoot.

Then..... as i was on the On-One mailing list the new Vandal titanium version of the Scandal came out, same geo, funky ti frame, i had to try it..... so far so good. never really missed the Chameleon, was a nice colour tho!

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