[Closed] Supporting LBS (I know one more)

Any LBS that tries to equal the online stores stock variety will eventually turn into a museum, unfortunately.

Any LBS that tries to equal the online stores stock variety will eventually turn into a museum, unfortunately

Did you expect them to say, OK seeing as you've spent £1 we'll fit it for free. I bet they booked their holidays after they'd made that particularly huge profit.

I would use an LBS if he could compete with on-line shops in stock & price.Only an idiot would pay more for their goods than they have to.....

1) They don't have to stock everything, but a well thought out selection that fits their customer profile will cater for probably 80% of what people want. They can also usually source specific stuff for you, or you can go online for the bits you need urgently

2) Paying up to about 10% more than online makes sense. It gives you a place to try on/touch/play with stuff you are thinking of buying. You will also save more than the 10% in goodwill advice, sorting small mechanical problems for you, handling warranty returns etc

Frankly you would be an idiot not to use a GOOD LBS when you can

1) They don't have to stock everything, but a well thought out selection that fits their customer profile will cater for probably 80% of what people want. They can also usually source specific stuff for you, or you can go online for the bits you need urgently

As a LBS in a small town myself, that means that I can't justify stocking any bikes over £700 retail and with the advent of DX no lights of 'off road standard' at all. I'd love to have more to show genuine enthusiasts when they do turn up here. Unfortunately there seem to be rather a lot of folks who stop briefly on decent bikes, look through the window and then move on when they see the family and entry level kit I do stock.

2) Paying up to about 10% more than online makes sense. It gives you a place to try on/touch/play with stuff you are thinking of buying. You will also save more than the 10% in goodwill advice, sorting small mechanical problems for you, handling warranty returns etc

Each to their own but I run 3 of my own bikes & two for my kids so can save a small fortune online.As for advice,mechanical stuff etc,I think I'm probably a fair bit more capable than your average LBS shop owner thanks.......

My lbs can suck a fat one after ripping me off for £5 for a star fangled nut and to whack it in!!!!! I was desperate so paid it.

Is this a troll? How could you consider £5 for a star fangled nut and fitting to be expensive? Shops are there to make money, or at least to break even, once you've taken into account the cost of tools etc they're making **** all profit out of your £5...

I love online parts as they don't rip me off.

Online parts don't install it then and there though, even if you're desperate. 😉

Online parts don't install it then and there though, even if you're desperate.

That's correct,but then you get to do it yourself & know that it's been done right 8)

,I think I'm probably a fair bit more capable than your average LBS shop owner thanks.......

i spent £60 @ wiggle an got 10p bag of sweets...cant beat that ? 😛

Emac65, the way i read that, he needed it fitted then and there, and the shop obliged.

Had the shop grabbed the SFN from his capable hands, forced him to stand and watch as they fitted it, then extracted the £5 by force, I could perhaps understand his annoyance... 😀

Edit: and [i]please[/i], paying RRP does NOT constitue being ripped off. Its amazing how people seem to get the two confused...

and please, paying RRP does NOT constitue being ripped off. Its amazing how people seem to get the two confused...

just read jacketdogs therad...feel like a cheapskate now!! head hanging in shame because i agree with him but shop online/tesco most of the time. maybe its time to change all that.

Just read jacketdogs post. What a joke. Why should I spend more money than I need to - what I choose to spend my money on is my own business, and if I choose to haggle over 30 quid, then I will (and do).

Frankly I welcome large tesco's stores - I like the fact that I can go to a shop and get *everything* rather than waste my time trying to adapt my needs to what my local corner shop stocks. If they can't compete, then that's sad, but it's progress. I hate shopping, if someone can find a way to reduce the time I spend doing it and also save me money, then fantastic.

RRP is a joke. Prices should be dictated by trade price + overheads + profit. Since everyones desired profit and overheads are different, there shouldn't be a need for an RRP.

The best thing that's happened to the bike industry in this country is the internet - it's brought down prices and made *some* bike shops realise that if they can't match the price then they have to offer a price that is within reach of the online price (people will pay for the convience) and also offer other things of value (banter, shop rides, etc). I simply can not understand this whole 'you should support your LBS' - why? it wouldn't be expected in any other industry - bike shops need to offer compelling value or I won't shop there. If I told my clients at work that they should pay significantly extra to 'support me' i'd be laughed out of the room.

If I told my clients at work that they should pay significantly extra to 'support me' i'd be laughed out of the room.

What if your client told you they'll pay 30% less because they can't see why you should earn so much.

They wouldn't, i'd have already looked at my competiors and seen they were offering the same service for 30% less and adjusted my business practices accordingly. If my competitors were not offering the same service for 30% less, then the client wouldn't be asking.

The domination of Tescos and the like is progress, you're quite right. It's unfortunate though that progress doesn't neccessarily mean improvement.

I assume the progress you speak of refers to your being able to spend less time shopping, spend less money to do so, and being offered more choice.

Those very much are benefits, no doubt about it. Although of those, to be honest I'm not sure the third really counts.

Choice. We have so much choice. Endless choice. Flavours, colours, textures, sizes, shapes, and any combinations we desire thereof.

Given less choice, would we be less happy? I don't know. Does more choice always equal better? Would we be more content as a people if the choices of frozen pizza/tv/anodised headsets were in the millions as opposed to the current hundreds? Would my life be any worse if I hadn't specced the specific hub and spoke colours on my current wheelset? I doubt it.

Currently my home is served by about 30 or 40 TV channels, but I still have as much difficulty finding something to watch as I did when we just received four. I sometimes wonder if choice is all it's cracked up to be.

So for me, the jury's out on that one. But the other two I agree with. I don't enjoy time spent shopping, nor do I like throwing my money away. So I recognise the modern methods of removing the need for either as being beneficial to us.

Unfortunately as far as I can see, those two advantages (three if you love your choice) comprise the extent of the benefits to come from what you're calling progress.

Because the other side of that progress is inbalance, injustice and the destruction of a society that functions in a logical and human way in favour of the creation of one that, in my opinion, very much doesn't.

That extra few quid I spend over you buys me so much more than extra wallet space. The extra £30 it costs me when we buy our respective 72 engagement-point rear hubs goes on much more than the alumininium, plastic and steel. The thing it pays for is more than just a product. It's my personal contribution towards sustaining a way of life I think is right - one that's unfortunately being ravaged by a nation's single-minded focus on the financial.

The opinion that the internet is the best thing to happen to mountain biking is very valid if you think of it only in terms of your ease of access to cheap choice. But there is a much bigger picture, beyond even the obvious that biking is about so much more than the products we choose. A bigger picture beyond the hobby that you yourself may very well not care about. Or perhaps very much do care about, without even realising it;

Many of us now live in communities that have no sense of coherence. We don't know the names of the poeple that live 3 doors down. We dont talk to each other, and we've all developed a mistrust of each other. We see the youth sat outside the (chipboarded) local shops and we're threatened by them. And we go home and listen to the news and read the paper and complain at the state of the world we live in. How society is broken, and how the streets are dangerous, and how everyone is so self-absorbed and unwilling to help those around them. So many speak of having lost faith in the world.

And yet the problem starts at home. Without that sense of community, without the communication between those we spend our lives around and those we should be there for and rely on, we start to fragment, and our happiness and contentment suffers.

We need to feel like we're all in it together, and that we're all sharing the same world. And we need to relearn the value of each other, and think more of others and the wider social environment than our own relatively insignificant short-term gain.

So whilever we conduct our lives from the end of broadband connections (irony noted), or scurry from our front doors and into our cars to drive to distant characterless, soul destroying superstores (did you say you hated shopping...) to buy our supplies, we're knocking further nails onto the coffin of civilised soceity.

And while people may lay blame at the government and be correct to do so, I think the solution starts at home also. The way to stop this, as far as I can see, is to vote with your bank balance and choose which future to support.

Even if you sometimes think it's largely futile. Though I find it tragic, you'll be glad to hear that the future is yours as far as I can tell. I unfortunately don't hold much hope for a better world. I feel outnumbered. Outnumbered by those like the clients that would laugh you out of the room should you ever ask for their support when faced with unfairly gained competition impossible to face.

I feel impotent in my ability to change anything. But I can't let that feeling of futility destroy my hope. And so I'll continue to try, in my own little way making a difference by playing the long game and investing in the future while those around me I wish to help call me a fool.

You read the Guardian don't you... 🙄

You can read the break down of society into bike shops failing to compete efficently if you want. Me? I'll just be clicking 'Purchase now' on CRC. Choice is good. Low cost is good.

Competition, efficent markets, and the march of progress is hardly a new event - Adam Smith proclaimed it in 1776.

The future's yours.

And I've honestly never bought the Guardian in my life.

You should, you'd like it 😉

They wouldn't, i'd have already looked at my competiors and seen they were offering the same service for 30% less and adjusted my business practices accordingly

Even if it means that it's not sustainable to work any more.

Well then I'd need to look to see where my business practicies are failing. The client wouldn't pay 30% more out of charity, so i'd be going bust anyway.

If I told my clients at work that they should pay significantly extra to 'support me' i'd be laughed out of the room.

Your client are paying significantly extra to support you, unless you run your business as a charity. If a massive competitor moved in and started offering [b]similar but slightly inferior[/b] work significantly cheaper, you'd be out of a job. And people who wanted the extra bits you'd provide? They'd have no choice.

Frankly I welcome large tesco's stores - I like the fact that I can go to a shop and get *everything* rather than waste my time trying to adapt my needs to what my local corner shop stocks.

Perhaps I'm lucky in that locally I can get everything I need and I don't have to drive 6 miles for it. It's generally better quality and often cheaper. Perhaps your town would still have a wide range of shops if people used them, rather than spend the few quid they might save at tesco on the petrol require to drive there?

In Oz we pay WAY over the odds for parts . Im saying that things are nearly HALF the price from CR, Wiggle, Jenson ect

The importers here rip the ass clean out of it, then the LBS takes their slice .

We dont pay customs on items under $1000 (550 quid) , we get free postage on orders over $450 from CR and $95 from wiggle .

The local bike shop is not going to pay my mortgage when im getting it tight , so why would anyone in the right mind pay over the odds when there is a cheaper and usually faster alternative .

If the difference was only 10% i would consider it , but it's not .

the only thing i like about tesco is the wensleydale and blackcurrant cheese i have just nommed.

otherwise its a faceless and homogenous humour free zone.

not even cheap - green grocers and butcher is better and cheaper!

Actualy, for everyone saying their LBS is more convenient........

I want to ride on Sunday for example.

I need a new BB.

do I:
a) go on CRC, get it for £18, its before 3:30 so it'll be in the post tonight and on my doormat tomorow morning.
b) shop will be closed tonight when i finish work, so I'll have to go tomorow, when they've opened (lets say 10am), no its a bus ride away, so i have to shell out another £3.50, then another £30 when I get there for the BB.

How was the LBS more convenient? The same applies to fixing my car, I ordered everything online, it all arrived in big boxes via fedex, everyone is happy. Cant imagine how long I'd have been cathing busses all over town ordering and buying parts, 20min on the internet with a hayes manual and a credit card and the job was done!

Back to the original question. ¨

Go^onto the CRC or Wiggle or whatever site. Print out the page showing the thing you want with the specification and price. When you go to the bike shop take the print out and say 'Can I have one of them please'.

They will know the internet price, the LBS price and the fact that you know it to yet still 'probably' choose to shop there.

WCA , the chances are that you LBS dont have stock of 75% of the parts you want , so its just easier placing the order online , saving yourself the time and effort going down . Even in Australia i can have a CR order in 5-7 days.

Its 2009 .... retail outlets are getting to be a thing of the past for many products, they either need to re-invent or shut up shop.

I think the heart of the matter is... you have a choice. If you like the web then use the web, if you like shops then use shops. All good.

Its when we no longer have a choice thats the problem and also when there is too much choice.

Things balance off eventually.

ozzy - I use a blend of CRC and 3 different LBS. CRC for anything expensive other than complete bikes. 2 LBS for mid priced bits and mechanicing and the other LBS for cheap stuff or bits the other 2LBS don't have

WCA , the shops arnt even in the ballpark with the prices here , so its a waste of time even trying . I remember an occasion i took a wheel in to get the cassette changed (have my own tools now) , the bike mechanic asked me where i got the XT cassette and price because he needed a new one ....WTF , he was saving $30 over his staff price to order it from the UK .

I think the big picture here is service. Anyone can buy online and get bits cheaper but can you get those bits in an emergancy? do you have the tools to fit them? Are you competent to fit them? if they fail are you happy to sort out the warrantry and messing about getting them replaced?

I for one will always support my local bike shop as I don't want them to disappear one day leaving me up sh*t creek when it comes to something simple like facing a BB which currently consists of drinking tea while someone does it for me with an expensive tool and then doesn't charge me for the pleasure.

I understand that times are hard and people are looking to save money where they can but buying an X0 rear mech online because it £20 cheaper doesn't make sense to me. If your that hard up for £20 then buy and X9 and relish in the money you've really saved.

Ultimately, I think that by buying everything from my LBS I don't feel ripped off. I think If I add up the price of all the freebies and small jobs along the way it would easily offset what money I could have saved by buying online;

So I'm not financially worse off, I get lots of free tea, good conversations and banter from people I think of as mates which give me good advice about my bike and where to ride and then take me out into the hills to show me how it done.... Biking is a community that LBS's have an important place in.

And for all the people that expect something for nothing.....
"Can I get you a stick for that moon sir?"

Perhaps I'm lucky in that locally I can get everything I need and I don't have to drive 6 miles for it. It's generally better quality and often cheaper. Perhaps your town would still have a wide range of shops if people used them, rather than spend the few quid they might save at tesco on the petrol require to drive there?

Then i'd need to go into 6 different shops and queue up 6 times. I've got a Tesco's within 3 miles, and a Morrisons / Sainsburys / Waitrose within 1 mile. Much prefer that than a load of corner shops with no parking.

I think the big picture here is service. Anyone can buy online and get bits cheaper but can you get those bits in an emergancy? do you have the tools to fit them? Are you competent to fit them? if they fail are you happy to sort out the warrantry and messing about getting them replaced?

Bits in an emergency - there will always be some bike shops. Halfords or Evans are good for that (and Evans price match online). I can fit everything I buy bar a few (non emergency) things (suspension fork bushings springs (ba boom tish) to mind. The warrenty service I've got from CRC, Wiggle, and Merlin is better than the service I've got from LBSs in that regard.

mess about with warrenty returns?

LBS: take back product, wait months for replacement.

CRC: bung in jiffy bag, into post box, wait 5-6 days for new parts to arrive.

Your right, the LBS truly is hopeless!

Fair enough Ewan but are you representative of every cycle rider in the UK? There will be a lot of people that are competant enough to repair things themselves and shop online, fair enough. But there are thousands that need the assistance of a shop.

As far as Halfords & Evans go my nearest Evans is about 15 mile away in the centre of Manchester which is a long and costly journey.

End of the day each to their own which ever end of the spectrum you choose to do things is fine but I don't think that a lBS shop could compete or even be compared to a massive online distribution centre.

Maybe i'm just fortunate to have a good LBS near to my home and work that provides good service that I appreciate and account for when deciding where to shop.

Your right, the LBS truly is hopeless!

Maybe you need to look for a new LBS, the point I was trying to make is good service. I wouldn't support my LBS if they were crap

CRC: bung in jiffy bag, into post box, wait 5-6 days for new parts to arrive.

LBS: Go in and moan over a brew, they sort out the replacement or repair and give me something to use in the meantime whether its a pair of forks or a full bike. Guess I'll be riding on those 5-6 days then...

Gravitysucks - the times I need to buy something to make my bike work rather than to improve it's function are pretty rare, and I'd guess the majority of the biking public are not riding every day, so a wait of a day (if it's an emergency pay for express delivery) is not going to bother them.

I agree Ewan, Thats assuming they will undertake the repair / replacement themselves and they're not commuters.

PS Don't mention this rarity thing to my other half.... this constant stream of bike parts and different things is absouluty essential 😉

Most people don't upgrade their bikes willy nilly, or know how to repair them. The majority are commuters, who ride every day and destroy bits and have no idea about what's gone wrong so take it to the LBS to sort it out.

We also find a lot of road riders (and in particular tirathletes) are happy to ride bikes but not know how they work, which is fine- I wish I could just pay for someone to fix my bikes instead of fanny about myself!

Mountain bikers break more stuff so are more mechanically skilled as it saves a lot of money, so order more stuff online.

One thing LBSs are good for, other than the obvious building up a relationship and doing you deals and favours, is working with clubs for good deals and extra special service.

I run a shop and never feel I'm ripping someone off at full rrp. Bike shops simply don't make that much money, if they could buy and sell in the quantity and from the channels major mail order places did then they could possibly come close to matching price but they can't because they are a 'local shop'.

The industry average net profit margin for bicycle retailers in the Uk and the U.S. is around 2% so not a lot of room to discount there I'm afraid.

Nowadays if you don't give very good service as a local shop then your days are limited I believe.

Not everyone is interested in knowledge and customer service and are only driven by price, that's fine, local shops don't exist to serve you so don't expect anything back from them. Must admit thought, everyone I've ever met who only ever bangs on about how cheap they can get things have been very dull people.

Those that believe supporting worthy local shops, good on you I feel the same way, as long as the service is good.

If there were hardly any small independent shops in any industry and only 2-3 big mailorder suppliers do you think they would still strive to deliver high service with no-one to match?

Must admit thought, everyone I've ever met who only ever bangs on about how cheap they can get things have been very dull people.

So people who come into your shop and pay full RRP are exciting ?

Is it not more a case of you as a bike shop owner dont want to hear or are fed up listening to potential customers reciting internet prices as im sure that are always cheaper.

Its an expensive sport, and being a non-bike shop owner , i find when my mate's tell me about good prices and cheap bling its pretty good.

I feel for the LBS's but thats the way the business has went , the internet has opened the world up and tightened the competition , instead of LBS's competing with each other in a 20mile radius , now you have the whole planet to compete with .

Its a win win for us riders !

Bits in an emergency - there will always be some bike shops.

Of course there will. Just like record shops. Oh, hang on, there's not many of those left now. Come to think of it, that's because everyone now buys records at Tesco or on the net.

Its a win win for us riders !

Not really. Where will you try on clothing and helmets? Get test rides from (or borrow bikes when you need to)? Get something done where you don't want to buy the tool, or can't do it yourself? I also wouldn't assume you can get the best deal online. My LBS did me a cracking deal when I bought a new bike. Then chucked in £150 of accessories. Then fiddled the C2W scheme 😉 YOU try doing that with CRC....

Are my customers exciting? what a bizarre question. I would say they are a very accurate representation of people on the whole. Do they all pay full rrp, most but we have a loyalty scheme as does Tesco.

Can't say i get that many people in quoting internet/mailorder prices at all let alone enough to get fed up with them. I think people who are purely motivated by spending their time searching for the lowest price are not potential customers, at least in so far as I'd never make money selling to them so I don't try to.

Yes the internet has changed the face of retail and it's kinda exciting. Has it improved the world, many people would say no. I am not bothered in the least by mailorder and the internet competition, I don't try to compete with them on price because I can't, I compete on service because I can. To say all customers only ever buy based on price is very inaccurate, it's like saying that our only motivation in life is money.

Many people have LBS' which are poor on service so they think all LBS' are like that, other people have great LBS' so they think they're great and show them loyalty but expect the same in return.

The retail industry is the second biggst employer in the UK after the government so small shops closing due to the internet has no doubt had an impact on society and the face of our town centre's. It's changed for good but it does mean retailers on the High St have got to get better at what they do in order to survive and that is good for the consumer.

Thinking about it I saw an article on a business programme during the week on how small patisserie's in some parts of France are getting state handouts to keep them going because they have decided they are so intrinsically important in teeh fabric of their communities. If it goes that way we'll all be paying to support local businesses through our tax instead of our custom so we won't be saving money in the end.