[Closed] Support the Innerleithen Uplift

>The chairlift itself doesn't need to make money.<

I wonder of Glenshee and Glencoe are sitting reading this...

>Oh, and the trails at trail centres have counters built into them, the FC know pretty accurately how many riders are using them and when. <

I havent seen the trail counter data for Tweed Valley - got a link?

I think It's a great idea in principle and would love to see It happen though I doubt It ever will. A few questions though .

How much has been spent on the Peel centre at Gt , and really was there any need
How much would the chairlift cost ?.
Going off topic slightly , does anyone remember the downhill tracks that were advertised on the Pentlands around ten years.? Were they any good and why were they stopped ?.

It would appear that the outdoor dry ski slope at Hillend is losing £500k a year , now i understand Its not the lift but the restaraunt and shop that is struggling. I dont ski and It seems a great facility but why Isn't It working ?. I read recently that they were trying to sell the chairlift idea to hillwalkers to access the top of the Pentlnads which seems mad as It's really not that large anyway.
Does anyone think the Inners lift would have more chance of reaching fruition If It was a 100 miles further north and had Ski runs at the back of It .

Sorry about the random questions just interested to see what the old Hillend mtb tracks were like and why the stopped.

Open 255 days per year
73% 0f mtbers will use the facility
Downhillers will use it 23 times a year ( thats from all over the UK)
95 000 mtbers to use it
30 000 sightseerers - thats the most ridiculous one. 120+ people every day paying £7 to look at the view. How many of the 255 days have good weather?

If I presented a business case like this to a sponser I would get laughed out the room. There is no way 73% of MTBers would use this service.
Also using it 23 times a year means that people are spending in the region on £600-£700 a year on lidt passes alone. Errm doubt it.

I think it is a great idea, but when places like Glenshee, Glencoe and Aviemore all run chairs and lose money year in year out I cant see teh sense in building another lift.

What we should focus on in enhansing the facilities at Glencoe and Clenshee that have year round facilities. Building and maintaining trails at Glenshee is a more cost efficient approach IMO

Sorry I got that wrong, it's actually Giant Freakin Lasers.

H

Who in the public or private sector has both the funds and the desire to make it happen

Glenshee are building a new chairlift from the profits they made off the back of last winter

http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/planning/apps/detail.asp?ref_no=APP/2010/0972#proposal

I've been trying to find the costs involved but I suspect that even though it was a bumper winter for them I'd be interested to know how much profit they made. It seems strange that given the variances of winter and the fact next one could be poor, that they'd sink all their profits into building an expensive new chairlift. Conversely perhaps the chairlifts don't cost as much as we've been led to believe and it's taking minimal investment from them to get a new one up and running.

No mention of public money either. All 100% funded by private money as far as I can tell. Figures online indicate Glenshee got 116,000 visitors last winter.

Glenshee are building a new chairlift from the profits they made off the back of last winter

The Glenshee Chairlift Co. went into recievership in 2004 for this very reason. They were bought out by Glenshee Ltd that run the centre now. From what I can remember they were struggling to operate through 2007 & 2008.

Would be a sensible idea for them to incorporate more DH tracks (first opened last month I think)for year round use.

Just a few observations / comments based on some of the above.

FC place small counters on key sections of trail to count rider passes on the trail, there will be an element of eror for wildlife passing but egnerally this seems like a pretty accurate way of checking mtb visitor numbers.

Of course waymarked trails don't generate any direct income but it takes a 6 figure sum to build an mtb trail. I suspect a chairlift would cost 7 figures and would need much more than some car park and cafe revenue to be able to justify the initial outlay.

I think that more chairlift facilities would be great to see in the UK but can't see mountain biking ever being able to attract the level of income that the skiing industry can even with our limited snowfall, shame really.

Glenshee used to own Glencoe - they bought a number of second hand chairlifts some years back and stored some parts at The Coe others at GS. The new chairlift will be a cobbled together derivative of both - and it's very short.

They also have power /services immediately to hand and they have the in house knowledge to throw these things up on a shoestring.

In other words - direct comparisons irrelevant.

There is one important comparison though: The Lecht, Shee, Coe, Aonoch Mor and even Cairngorm were all built by enthusiasts / sporting entrepreneurs. Where and who are the DH pioneers with the wherewithall, backing and bottle to lead the Innerleithen project?

[i]FC place small counters on key sections of trail to count rider passes on the trail, there will be an element of eror for wildlife passing but egnerally this seems like a pretty accurate way of checking mtb visitor numbers.[/i]
Pretty much, depends on the counter used. At CV we had pressure pads that only triggered if two wheels passed - sorry municyclists you didn't count - were pretty accurate. Tricky bit is taking trail counts and extrapolating out to visitor numbers. Visitor numbers that take a trail counter data converted 1:1 to visitors are meaningless IMHO.

Here's the report we wrote on Carron Valley usage (with methodology) -

CARRONVALLEY.ORG.UK "http://www.carronvalley.org.uk/pdfs/counters_and_research.pdf"

ok so if i win the lottery tonight and want to use it to build a chairlift at inners how much do i need to win?

oh and how do i hide it from my wife as she would want me to use the money on diy or clothes for our baby or something equally silly

Where and who are the DH pioneers with the wherewithall, backing and bottle to lead the Innerleithen project?

Think the answer is there aren't any. FC seem to be the main contributers to MTBing in the UK and doubt they would invest in this. Not sure the FC have the appetite to invest heavily in Inners. Agree production of a new chair would be in the region of 7 figures. I would think itwould have to be double the size or cairnwell to access the top of Minch Moore. With little or no scope to open to skiers/boarders its never going to be in use consistantly for 255 days of the year. Chairs close on a regular basis if the area is "storm bound" and we all know how windy Inners is at the top. Plus snow and rain would also reduce numbers on a regular basis.

I would love to see this happen but having my Project Management head on I just dont see there being a valid Business Case to build. We can but dream............

Driller - Member

mollyiom what makes you really think that DH riders don't go out and ride 40 miles of XC one day and then ride DH the next and then ride 50 miles of road the next day. I do.

Can I suggest you keep your bigoted opinions to yourself.

Or go out and try it and meet some of the riders and realise they're just mountian bikers like the rest of us, assuming you have the skills of course.

A chairlift would be a great idea. Maybe the lift its self wouldn't make money, but the overall net revenue for the area may well make it viable. It's not just full-on DH riders that would use it.

Chill out dude, mucho respecto for the down hillers it was a tongue in cheek comment but lets be realistic here it just isnt going to happen. you may as well ask for a mono rail connection from the south whilst yer at it.

Where and who are the DH pioneers with the wherewithall, backing and bottle to lead the Innerleithen project?

At home watching this:
[img] [/img]

"Heather Bash - Member

Hels - the project needs to be viable commercially. Where are the investors?"

Well, this is the point, it doesn't, as has been explained in the thread. Innerleithen's trail centre itself doesn't make money but it's still a good investment because it draws people into the area and therefore runs as a loss leader to generate wider profit. Expecting business investors to get into a loss leader is silly without some direct benefit but expecting government to is not. Though there's quite a strong argument that Innerleithen isn't really deprived enough to justify this to be fair.

Laggan is a great example as the success study from 2007 is in the public domain... And here's what it says:

"Mountain bike facilities such as Laggan Wolftrax are free facilities. The benefit accrues to businesses in the local economy rather than to the developer of the facilities. Although businesses onsite providing facilities e.g. café and bike sales/hire do derive income from the site it is not sufficient to initially fund the development. In these situations it is impossible for the project to be fully funded by the private sector
rather it requires public sector intervention. Without this public sector support the project would not take place, therefore the level of additionality is considered to be 100%"

[additionality = value of public funds]

"In summary, it can be seen that gross expenditure resulting from the Laggan Wolftrax ranged from approximately £285,000 at the Laggan local area level to £570,000 at the Scottish level. Taking account of additionality, displacement and multiplier effects, the net expenditure that resulted from Laggan Wolftrax has been estimated at ranging from £280,000 at the Laggan local area level and £68,000 at the Scottish level."

The total cost of the development was around £250000, so you have a year one 100% return on investment.

"Where are the investors?"

"2.3.2 Sources of Funding
Funding was provided by a number of partners as detailed in Table 2.3.
TABLE 2.3: FUNDING PROVIDED FOR LAGGAN WOLFTRAX DEVELOPMENT
Partner Amount allocated (£)
Forestry Commission Scotland (in kind) 19,500
Forestry Commission Scotland (local division) 19,500
Forestry Commission Scotland (via Scot Exec) 100,000
Scottish Natural Heritage 25,000
HIE Inverness & East Highland (formerly MBSE) 20,000
CNPA 15,000
Highland Council 5,000
Total 204,000
Total costs 250,500
Difference -46,500
Source: Forestry Commission Scotland
The further £46,500 required to fund the project was provided by the Forestry
Commission local division bringing their total contribution to £66,000."

So here's the structure and the justification for a large value capital project with no prospect of making a profit. TJ's right that the numbers needed to make a lift profitable in its own right are unrealistic, but the wider picture isn't so clear cut.

poly - Member

"I was at Wolftraks on Monday and their uplift service seemed to be busy with customers and opperating about every half hour."

Which is odd, because it's pretty s**t really, a short uplift up an easy fire road. But proves the point I think- the Laggan uplift is appealing to XC riders and jump kids, it's not for downhillers. Most uplifts are seen as solely for downhillers, but laggan shows nicely what can be done if you broaden that appeal.

Fort William is attempting this too, which seems to have been moderately succesful (every time I've been there bar race days, full on downhillers have only been about 50% of the total audience.) I'd love to see their visitor numbers though, they do record on the participation sheet whether you're there for downhilling or not so it'd be interesting to read.

The big audience for this sort of uplift isn't downhillers, it's people like me, IMO. People who would never in a million years have gone and done the world cup uplift at Fort William, but who queue up to do the red, then do the WC route while they're there. It's been made approachable where before it was not.

can someone take a diary note for us to do this topic again next year? in fact, lets book in the next few editions now...

>So here's the structure and the justification for a large value capital project<

Bollocks - Laggan is miniscule compared to what's being proposed here and, more importantly, the revenue that will be required to run and maintain it. Multiply Laggan by 50 to 100 and thats the kind of £capital you are talking about.

You can argue til your blue in the face about additionality but:

a.) I dont believe the public sector want to touch this
b.) There is no mechanism for FCS etc to recover their costs
c.) There isn't currently any money in the system to help fund this

"Multiply Laggan by 50 to 100"

Er, no.

go on then, how much would it cost? remember to show your workings. 🙂

My working? I am not a chairliftist. Here is someone else's

"A joint venture between Scottish Enterprise, Scottish Borders Council (SBC) and Forestry Commission Scotland, found it needs £5 million of public sector backing and another £5 million from private enterprise."

Laggan cost under half a millionish, the proposed development at Innerleithan will be 50 times that easily. Look at the scale of it.

Chairlift, new roads, infrastructure etc etc. No one has done any real costings that I have seen but 25 million does no seem too far off to me. its certainly in multiple millions not hundreds of thousands

30 km of new trails. thats far more than at laggan new forestry roads, new access roads, new carpark, vistor centres and cafe etc etc.

where are the millions in funding going to come from? Not from the public purse thats for sure

Edit - crossed posts - where did you get those figures from?

£10m? So multiply Laggan by 40 then. I'd rather we had 40 Laggans...

Interestingly enough a quick google finds Heather Bash himself quoting "£12 million in today's money", which is 47 times the initial setup cost of Laggan. I do like it when people argue with themselves 😉

"where are the millions in funding going to come from? Not from the public purse thats for sure"

And why not exactly? "Millions" is not a big number in the grand scheme of things, even now, and there's a strong economic case for it. Laggan as has been demonstrated paid for itself in full in under a
year, in local benefits alone. Of course, that was a smaller spend but then it also had a smaller expected return. Now I say "expected return", as in, not the mad fantasies that some throw around for the chairlift but still a substantial number. Laggan's £280000 locally is based on only 15000 visitors per annum after all, Innerleithen from the figures I've seen draws around 25000 per annum currently.

Understand, I'm not saying this is going to happen, I still don't consider it likely at all myself but the droning of "commercially viable" is frankly just as idiotic as the "7% of people ride mountain bikes" claims. The 7 Stanes aren't commercially viable, but they're still a colossal success in financial terms.

And yes, I'd rather we had 40 laggans too. But then, I'd rather we had 24 Laggans than one Glentress Peel Visitor Centre. And I know it's a hackneyed argument, but that alone demonstrates how these things get funded. £5 million from FC Scotland as I recall, £750K from scottish enterprire, £250K from Sports Scotland. No european funding at all. And most of the arguments that people think prove the chairlift is a pipedream would apply exactly the same to the visitor's centre, were they correct. And yet it moves.

tj, stop all that negative shite, it will happen, downhilling is a fast growing sport and people dont want to travel as far north as fort bill plus the fact we need a new wc course, it will happen, maybe 5-10 years but it will.

PS I think "X number of Laggans" should be the standard accounting term for any mountain biking project. "Nevis Red? Fantastic, and only .8 Laggans to boot"

shagmeister it has precisely zero chance - thats why nothing has happened the last 3 yrs.

a chairlift is pie in teh sky - totally unrealistic. The number just make no sense at all.

You can have a DH development at Innerleithan without the chairlift.

Think how good a vehicle uplift could be done with a million pounds? Nice shiney vehicles and drivers paid for years.

Let's not fall out over £750K. 😉

[i]And why not exactly? "Millions" is not a big number in the grand scheme of things, even now, and there's a strong economic case for it. Laggan as has been demonstrated paid for itself in full in under a
year, in local benefits alone[/i]
I'm not sure Laggan experience is directly transferable. How much does it cost to ride at Laggan? Paid and free attractions are very different beasts.

"a [s]chairlift[/s] [i]multi million pound visitors centre[/i] is pie in teh sky - totally unrealistic. The number just make no sense at all."

See? It's easy, this being argumentative thing.

Though, I have to say your other point is the most compelling argument there is against the chairlift concept, and for myself I see no counterargument whatsover. Trail redevelopment and polished uplift, no cattle trucks, for people to put their carbon fibre ego chariots in without worrying if a 45 lb DH bike will get thrown on top, and all pitched to XC riders. Even £1 million could do amazing things.

Northwind

First things first - visitor numbers are invariably >>>>>>>>>> inflated bollocks = vested interest.

Laggan: low impact / low risk /low capital expenditure / good story / nice project = nobody gets hurt.

Chairlift = very high risk / £10m almost certainly waaaay under projected = Funicular MK2 IMHO. Go figure...

[i]PS I think "X number of Laggans" should be the standard accounting term for any mountain biking project. "Nevis Red? Fantastic, and only .8 Laggans to boot"[/i]
Only 0.8 if you completely ignore any of the other investment made at Nevis Range (I have no workings, just a guess)?

Inners chairlift has been on the go for how long? Had attention from SE etc for 5 years(?) and nothing, even when there was money swilling around. Nevermind that the land manager doesn't want it:
"we have no plans, nor are we able, to create more world-class facilities" Mike Russell MSP, Sunday Herald, 04/10/2008

for a million quid the forest road could be a tarred dual public road then we could use our own cars 😮
seriously though it would be great to have it esp for young talented riders as a training base,were better at downhill then football in this country!,but it seems unlikely due to costs...but good on folk who want to campain and rally support for it,
a granny ring only costs £22 in the meantime and you can cycle up almost anywhere for free, 😮

Yup Proteus, that's .8 Laggans due to pre-existing bike-equipped gondola and access road, all it needed was the trail. The full nevis range project is I imagine several megaLaggans. Which, I suppose, also kicks it into "It will never be built, it makes no sense, there is no case for it" even though it actually exists.

"a multi million pound visitors centre is pie in the sky - totally unrealistic. The number just make no sense at all."

No it doesn't. At least not the way that project appears to have been "managed". Massively overbudget, long overdue.

And yet it moves.

[i]Which, I suppose, also kicks it into "It will never be built, it makes no sense, there is no case for it" even though it actually exists[/i]
are you aware of skiing, snowboarding & tourists*?

* who like a view and a cup of tea/scone. the former of which doesn't exist unless you built a huge 'lift right to the top of Minch Moor. The latter can probaby be served in your £5m tea shoppe.

[i]And yet it moves.[/i]
LOL!

Proteus, Nevis range posts a profit some years, a loss other years, but never enough to justify the capital outlay of the project, and was entirely dependant on the public purse to be built- sound familiar at all?

Joking aside - rather sick of this now / like a stuck record.

Move on, back projects that play to our strengths > those that deliver more bang for our £

Night. I hope your dreams are filled with white elephants.

Hmm, elephant uplift. I'd pay for that.

If we're wrapping it up, all I can say is yes it's a daft idea, yes it's too much money, but if you look around you you'll find any number of daft ideas that cost too much money that have been huge successes, and for which the exact same objections would apply. I don't disagree at all with the logic but the fact is, these projects do happen. Funicular railways, the entire nevis range project (commissioned during a recession at vast cost), the 7 Stanes themselves (£2 million of public money there), and who knows how many others that you could have shot down for exactly the same reasons. So you take a step back and wonder what's wrong with the picture since your completely logical argument doesn't actually seem to transfer into the real world too well. Some of this stuff just doesn't make sense, is the bottom line, and demanding that it should doesn't work.

Thinking about this rationally and living locally and the fact that Ive never been to Morzine , Whistler , Moab or Mackenzie. But I have done Glentress and Innerleithen and being a chubby almost 40 year old surely half the fun Is the torturous climb , I support the idea as It might bring people who spend cash locally and bolster the economony. If I was an Investor the figures dont add up so I wouldn't touch It with a shitty stick.

<too late for an edit- the funicular obviously isn't a huge success, very careless posting, but proves beyond any doubt that a project doesn't have to make sense to go ahead>

What gets me is the current uplift coaches Drive up from Durham every weekend and don't offer me a lift!

I ride a mixture of XC and DH, probably visiting the Tweed valley 4 or 5 times a year with 1 or two of those being overnight stays. Would a chairlift make me go to innerleithen more often? Almost certainly. Would it attract more leisure visitors - probably not. It's hard as the capital costs for the project have undoubtedly increased just as the investors have dried up..

a project doesn't have to make sense to go ahead

I agree, if the coffers are full and the good times look like they'll just keep on rollin'. Edinburgh trams anyone?

However, in this economic climate where the government are canning projects to build SCHOOLS, I doub't you'll find anyone except the enthusiastic minority supporting this. The public sector won't touch it with a barge pole and the private sector have had ample opportunity to get involved and haven't.

Its all about priorities and this project had its chance during the MTB "boom" earlier in the decade. Nobody did anything about it then so they sure as hell aren't going to do anything about it now i'm afraid.

Why not put a lift system somewhere that is epic to get upto?