[Closed] STW Magazine & Forum - For elitest rich people only these days ??

I got annoyed by that comment to. I have raced with DX torches till buying one of their Magicshine 1200 lumen jobbies for £35.

Plenty bright enough. Why anyone would feel the need to spend >£100 is beyond me.

I was stunned to see the £500 rigid fork in a Fresh Goods a few weeks ago. Is that not the pinnacle of ridiculous pricing?

We used to night ride using just our eyes and rear lights so we didn't lose each other. Now I use a "5LED" torch from the petrol station (£2.99).

The thing is,some people have the cash to but or waste money on expensive toys for their bikes, and some of us are poor, so we want be taking out a mag sub, or buying the increased price mag after the next one, thats life.

Yep, it would at least be worth seeing a side by side comparison, of the hopes and exposures next to the magicshine etc. I have an exposure setup and am not sure its worth the extra over the cheaper options that now exist, I could have spent the money I saved on a budget wheelset 😉

I find any of the magazines I read are obviously tailored to persons who make a lot more money than I do. Even the "budget" test are full of equipment I could never pay full price for.

Thanks to classifieds I have 2 pretty decent machines that I use often and am happy with the spec. Wouldn't want to think what each would cost off the shelf or if I built from new.

I read all the "Which light" threads as the winter came round and saved up to spend £67 on a smudge light and another £21 for a helmet light off ebay...£88 is still a lot of money though...isn't it? £500 for lights!!?? If you can afford them, buy them! I'll get then 2nd hand off ya when the colour doesn't match this years new anodised integrated carbon thingymabob

Let's be realistic about the economics of the magazine business here. There's two sources of income, advertisers and readers.

This is why the magazines (whatever field they may be in) will feature products that you can get from their advertisers, rather than the non-branded cheap stuff you can get from the far east.

The moment DX start taking out double page spreads in glossy magazines, you'll see their products featured. You'll also see those same products starting to cost a lot more. To pay for the advertising.

You must have heard of drivers of expensive BMWs having small c*cks? Well its the same for expensive bike lights, simple.

Me, I've got a P7 torch, cheap, from DX.

"There are, of course, plenty of sub-£100 lights out there but we wanted to restrict this group test to lights that were up to the job of proper off-road night riding. Trail illumination costs money."

Christ on a bike, that as bad as WhatMTB's pathetic excuse last year, at least they took the hint and tested 'some' this year (even if they like the poor mickey mouse version).... as it what the readers wanted, not the advertisers.

...It's not like the current chinese (true) 2000 lumen lights can't be had very very easily for £100 or not a lot more. Ohh as per the Faster by designs' advert over ->>>
(well if you read this thread, the ad should start appearing)

If having lights gets you an extra ride a week for 6 months of the year then to some this is worth £££...even if it can be done for £50.

"proper trail illumination" this is the sort of BS that made me give up buying bike mags, too many bike journos are utter tools IMO.

[i]You must have heard of drivers of expensive BMWs having small c*cks? Well its the same for expensive bike lights, simple.[/i]

Well, I do have a tiny penis. But having swapped from a DX to an Exposure Maxx-D, I have to say it was nothing to do with my chopper. More to do with brighter light, better run time, less chance of the charger setting on fire, better mounting system and no need for cables or battery bags. And because I liked it and had the money for it. Nothing to do with trying to prove a point to anyone.

BUT I agree with the use of the term 'budget' for something costing half a bag. To be fair, all the bike mags seem to do it now. Budget wheels = hundred quid set of shimano factory, surely.

I got my Lumicycle light for 50quid plus rental at a race (so about 90 quid total). I've had approximately two rides use out of the light as where I used to live it just wasn't viable to get out after work most of the time. Quite expensive rides but I'm getting more out of them now.

As an aside, does anyone know if you can convert the halide lumicycle's to something a little more modern?

I'm with al (though, unfortuantly not 'with' al 🙁 /spurned). I gave up with bike mags years ago on these grounds. Rather have the £3...4...5 in my pocket for innertubes/jizz/beer than glossy pics of stuff I don't want, need or desire, together with uninteresting waffle, rubbish routes round places with more to offer and 'tests' that leave out the stuff I'd specifically like to see tested.

All I will note though, is that as I'm in publishing, I'm aware of the fact it isn't an easy game and that you will never please veryone. [i]Singletrack[/i] for the first few years of its life, got it so nearly damn right all the time, it came as a shock when it too started to lose its way ... or more accurately, my interests parted from those of [i]Singletrack[/i].

Always remember the rule of thumb for this type of thing. The money spent on 'kit' tends to be inversely proportional to the amount of use it gets

Cheap functional kit = Ride it like you stole it til it falls apart. Buy another one.

ludicrously expensive bling = used twice a year, mainly in the car park at Llandegla

😉

[i]Rather have the £3...4...5 in my pocket for innertubes/[b]jizz[/b]/beer[/i]

You are Mark Almond and I claim my £5.

Rather have the £3...4...5 in my pocket for innertubes/[b]jizz[/b]/beer than glossy pics

Whoa!

You buy jizz??!!

😯

Oh to be that thin 😐

you ride an intense dont you Binners

[i]"proper trail illumination" this is the sort of BS that made me give up buying bike mags, too many bike journos are utter tools IMO.[/i]

Just like a lot of forum users are ill informed buffoons I guess. IMO of course. 😀

Testing stuff is damned if you do - damned if you don't really , we did test more expensive lights - which are generally the lights that are sent to us - It's also true that the more expensive light manufacturers tend to advertise and support us , and by the nature of it being a gear test/round up were likely to be showing new brighter better stuff/ I understand that you can have a great night ride with cheaper lights but that isn't really what a gear review is for - that would be more of column or a story really.

It's funny but every now and again there's a "singletrack has lost it's way vibe".
The magazine has always had a top-end element to it, just look at the bike pictures that get posted and the people buying a set of tyres just to give them 1% more on a social ride round a trail-centre.

I have to say though that for the first time I sort-of agree with the sentiment, that said it'll roll round again soon enough.

"I understand that you can have a great night ride with cheaper lights but that isn't really what a gear review is for - that would be more of column or a story really."

Now thats just silly 😆

Oh to be that thin

Just more of you to love, wee man.

singletrackmatt - bearded fellow
I understand that you can have a great night ride with cheaper lights but that isn't really what a gear review is for - that would be more of column or a story really.

Just like a lot of forum users are ill informed buffoons I guess. IMO of course.

The trouble with forum users is that they're a variable bunch, covering a spectrum all the way from ill informed buffoons right the way to those who understand the physics of how wheels work far better than bike journos...

Damn it, man. Next issue the masses demand a light test for the real 'man on the street'. Candles, fireflies in jam jars, bio-luminescent plankton and so on.

Generally, I'd say that more expensive bikes and components were "better" in some way, be that build quality, warranty, weight, strength. With electronics, I'm not so sure that's the case. However, I guess that a gear review which showed cheap lights were a better option than expensive ones might upset the advertisers a wee bit.

I understand that you can have a great night ride with cheaper lights but that isn't really what a gear review is for - that would be more of column or a story really.

Not really. Can you not measure a selection of £50 lights or sub <£100 lights against the £500 ones and say what the difference is. I would have thought the biggest difference would be in mounting, charging and modes not in output which to me is all that really matters.

I understand that you can have a great night ride with cheaper lights but that isn't really what a gear review is for - that would be more of column or a story really.

Maybe instead of coming across as cocky you should listen to what your target audience are saying...

The trouble with forum users is that they're a variable bunch, covering a spectrum all the way from ill informed buffoons right the way to those who understand the physics of how wheels work far better than bike journos...

See this? The technical term for this is 'Pwned'...

Whatever happened to carbide lamps?

[i]you should listen to what your target audience are saying[/i]

Maybe we're seeing the results of that listening?

[i]right the way to those who think they understand the physics of how wheels work [/i] FTFY

I've got an expensive light 09 Joystick and white eye. I use it everyday in the Autumn/Winter - mostly for commuting

I bought it to last as I have used it/will use it a lot,. It doesn't really match my bike but it gets me seen and hopefully it won't fall apart anytime soon.

I am lucky enough that I can buy expensive stuff but I do it, not for fashion but for the quality, the fact it will last a good few years and because it was small and neat. I was like ... F*** I've just paid 170 for a light but after going through a 4/5 cateyes probably about £30 a go, it's seemed to have paid off.

Realman... You are the seller. Your customer is upset and not happy... You have his money.... Refund him and get your brakes back.

Yours,

Singletrack

Can I take up Marks own advice to Realman, the last issue I bought left me with epic levels of mehhhh apathy and general ambivolenece to riding.

Don't get me wrong if STW only want to test lights that cost over £100 thats fine by me, no reason for me to buy their mag, but to patronise people at the same time is taking it a bit far.

Surely though the way to go would be to test a cheap alternative against the more expensive options as it would show how more expensive options are actually better value for money..... or would that be the problem that it would be difficult to justify the more expensive models ?

The trouble with forum users is that they're a variable bunch, covering a spectrum all the way from ill informed buffoons

Yeah, I read the mag 🙁

In a way I agree, but also have to say that recently I fell into the camp of "my DX just won't do.."..

I've got one of the bar/batery pack ones, and also a torch. I've modded both to attach to an exposure bar mount (best mount by far, IMO).
I use the torch for commuting (all in one option) and the other for off road. Both were fine for their job, but i found the QC ont he torch was pretty naff (it's my second...), and it would fade out when going over bumps (and even just randomly). taking it off and tapping it on the bar would sort it! I re-pasted all the contact points, used a multi meter, and mostly solved it's problems, but it still messed up every now and then.

I got fed up, spunked £200 on a second hand exposure maxx-D (2012 version), and yes, it is much nicer than the DX lights, yes, it is brighter with a BETTER beam pattern, but yes, it cost £200!

Is it worth the extra - probably not. Do I feel safer with it on the road - yes. Do I ride better off road at night with it - probably not!

Ultimately, I'll admit I'm a bit of a tight ass, but felt that spending this money on this light was worth it, and don't regret it. Also, it means a mate of mine gets a full working DX light for not much money.
And finally, no dolphins were killed in the process......

DrP

😉

quote]singletrackmatt - bearded fellow
I understand that you can have a great night ride with cheaper lights but that isn't really what a gear review is for - that would be more of column or a story really.

How about a good spread of lights and prices. Then let us choose which ones we like?

I have a Magicshine MJ-880 £144 and it blows my mates Maxx-D £325 out of the water for "Trail illumination" and you can't even tell if my mates Hope vision 4 £270 is on or not when mine is on full.

Power to the people! Give us choice!

[i]my mates Maxx-D £325[/i]
your mate paid £325 for a Maxx-D? [points and laughs]

I'm going to poke my own eyes out so I can night ride all the time for free. It'll be good to read about THAT.

Let's face up, it's £3000 wriswatches, vintage razors & pro level coffee machines Vs waterpoof casios, yellow bics and two spoons of gold blend.....

.....which one of those demographics is going to want to read aspirational articles on 550g paper and pay more than the price of pint and a bag of chips for the privilege ??

It's a product placement business masquerading as a community, that's the USP of lifestyle publishing - buy into this and be like us.

As for the forum it's just a bitching shop for the bored at work, never at work or professional netheads - all nodding, niche fests & witch hunts....

...good innit 😆

As above, it's always been glaringly obvious that the cheap far east light manufacturers don't buy advertising space...

my mates Maxx-D £325
your mate paid £325 for a Maxx-D? [points and laughs]

His was second hand, i was point out how much the list price is,
Like my light list price £144 i payed £125 🙂

http://www.magicshineuk.co.uk/products/MJ-880-light-set-most-powerful-light-from-Magicshine

http://www.exposurelights.com/product/000015/maxx-d/

Maybe we're seeing the results of that listening?

Maybe.

But probably not.

Singletrack only usually test what they are sent or own.

Of course, the companies who send stuff to bike magazines all the time are the ones with the higher margins.

These same companies are the ones who can afford to advertise.

I don't see any collusion/bias here. It's just the way it is.

---

The original problem was with the "we wanted to restrict this group test to lights that were up to the job of proper off-road night riding. Trail illumination costs money." But I think this has been misinterpreted as " we don't think that DX/Magicshine are up to the job.
But what it probably meant was that the sub £100 lights available from the larger suppliers (cateye, etc) aren't really up to the job.

Also - as an aside - I'll freely admit to being ok with a bit of modding here and there to get my cheap gear working as I like. It's part of the fun. For that reason, I don't recommend my lights to everyone.

hilldodger - Member
Let's face up, it's £3000 wriswatches, vintage razors & pro level coffee machines Vs waterpoof casios, yellow bics and two spoons of gold blend.....

Or should it be ^^This^^ ??

I`m loving the 'justification' above. tee hee

hilldodger - Member
Let's face up, it's £3000 wriswatches, vintage razors & pro level coffee machines Vs waterpoof casios, yellow bics and two spoons of gold blend.....

Don't ever make the mistake that people who can afford to buy all those things are willing to spend their money on those things. Many are just as tight if not tighter than those that couldn't afford them...

Onto the main point, I get pretty hacked off at the elephant in the room of cheap DX lights/whatever that are ignored in mag group tests for no reason that I can see other than the mags don't want to offend the people selling the more expensive ones. I expect better of ST mag TBH but I'm starting to think that my faith is misplaced here. Even if they reviewed a £50ish DX light that is more than up to the job of 'proper' mtbing and said that it was fine but that they'd heard of them failing, etc so maybe you want to balance the price against possible reliability or lack thereof, I could go with that. To just ignore them is failing the readership IMO.

To just ignore them is failing the readership IMO.

And thinking about it further...

I understand that you can have a great night ride with cheaper lights but that isn't really what a gear review is for - that would be more of column or a story really.

Surely that's exactly what a gear review is for. Reader is interested in lights for night riding, reads mag review of lights to hopefully make an informed decision on which ones suit them best. To do that properly the review has to reflect what's out there - not everything - that's clearly would be impossible - but certainly it should reflect the broad range of options and cheap DX, etc are definitely one of those options.

Maybe they ordered a cheap Chinese light but it was kept in the container at the harbour for 6 months so missed the test?

🙂 Maybe and in that case, they could have said exactly that. Or borrowed one and made that comment as the downside. At least that's then giving a clear picture of what's out there.

Maybe the magazines are reflecting trends in the mountain biking population and their aspirations. I think things have moved from a " get out and ride " mentality and young [ ish ] riders customising stuff on the [ relative ] cheap .now there seems to be more status in having a carbon fibre mega expensive bike that what you do with it . to quiote a previous article in singletrack- mountain biking has become the new golf ,largely middle aged user population with money to spend and people to impress.

largely middle aged user population

Is that actually true? While I'm definitely creeping towards that bracket (or maybe already there), from the othe people I see out riding I don't reckon that's the majority by any means - mid teens to late 20s/maybe early 30s seems to be the majority to me.

most of the people I tend to see are thirties plus and a lot in their forties . I'm late fifties myself.

I'm only seven. Really I should be having my spag hoops and be tucked up in bed shortly.....

DrP

I like to think that the mag and Forum are not exclusive to the middle-classes.

There will always be folk with more money than me or you, so what? If they want to spend £500 on some naff coffee machine then as long as they report back on here and we can point and laugh, fair play to 'em.

If nothing else, this recession is forcing folk to reassess their priorities and perhaps learning some humility in the process.

If any of the naysayers want to check the front page and go to the review of bar lights they'll see Smudge thanking us for the "excellent" review of his XML light.

If you bought the mag you'd know it was one of three I recommended.

I'm with clubber on this. 🙂

I've got Hong Kong torches, batteries and chargers from DX but I'm reluctant to recommend them to friends for fear of them breaking or going bang. They're not CE tested and there's no real guarantee if bought direct from HK although there are UK sellers who offer their own guarantee. The HK lights are great and extremely cheap but with the risks involved I wouldn't expect a publication to recommend them to the general public who may or may not be morons and leave everything plugged in while they go on holiday!

Wow...way to lose a lot of credibility and alienate your potential market singletrackmatt! I should have said "too many journos write like tools", I don't actually know any.

No way is it damned if you do and damned if you don't, all you need is a DX torch and light in tIe test...it's called "impartiality" 😛

Maybe the magazines are reflecting trends in the mountain biking population and their aspirations. I think things have moved from a " get out and ride " mentality and young [ ish ] riders customising stuff on the [ relative ] cheap .now there seems to be more status in having a carbon fibre mega expensive bike that what you do with it . to quiote a previous article in singletrack- mountain biking has become the new golf ,largely middle aged user population with money to spend and people to impress.

So Singletrack is now a follower of the pack, rather than a leader?

a magazine - impartial? who`d have heard of such a thing!

Doesn't every magazine publication has parts that you will like and some you dont, bit of a harsh criticism to say STW Magazine & Forum is for elitest rich people only, just skip the bits you don't agree with or like, its not meant to be personal.

I wouldn't expect a publication to recommend them to the general public who may or may not be morons and leave everything plugged in while they go on holiday!

I have a cordless drill that has a battery that will overheat if left plugged in for too long. Made by Bosch. Hardly a dodgy brand. FWIW, my DX light seemed ok when I left it to charge for a week. Light went from red to green once it was fully charged.

Dave - Moderator
If any of the naysayers want to check the front page and go to the review of bar lights they'll see Smudge thanking us for the "excellent" review of his XML light.

If you bought the mag you'd know it was one of three I recommended.

Which is exactly the one I bought after seeing the review, very pleased with it & Smudge's quick service too.

Which sort of flies in the face of the

[i]"There are, of course, plenty of sub-£100 lights out there but we wanted to restrict this group test to lights that were up to the job of proper off-road night riding. Trail illumination costs money."[/i]

comment?

I've bought plenty of lights from DX for myself & friends. I guess we're all lucky not to have perished in an inferno. Phew.

Is that actually true? While I'm definitely creeping towards that bracket (or maybe already there), from the othe people I see out riding I don't reckon that's the majority by any means - mid teens to late 20s/maybe early 30s seems to be the majority to me.

The people you see out riding probably aren't the same people splurging a wad on a new set of £700 wheels.

It's that eternal problem of not having enough money to buy a decent bike, then by the time you have that sort of disposable cash you've got no time.

I like to read about bikes and kit i will never be able to afford. My main bike cost far far more than my car, but the bike i use the most is worth maybe 250 quid and i use it to commute. Not sure what my point is really. Carry on.

singletrackmatt - bearded fellow

and by the nature of it being a gear test/round up were likely to be showing new brighter better stuff

Except, your test actually showed some duller worse stuff. We're way past the point where cheap lights were "good enough", with the MJ-872s and the like they're beating plenty of expensive lights on all fronts.

Well the statement that the mag is becoming more middle aged because it features high end stuff isn't necessarily true. I am an old bloke but unfortunately a poor old bloke so although I have been riding MTBs since 1985 most of my stuff is special offer or some kind of discount.
I too boggle at some of the over priced stuff shown in the mag but that's what mags do. Top Gear mag has no articles on Vauxhall Novas.
As long as Singletrack keeps publishing plenty of articles about what you actually do with whatever bike they have got I will continue buying the mag. Having said that, I will be taking a very close look at the new format to decide whether I want to continue to afford it.

Always remember the rule of thumb for this type of thing. The money spent on 'kit' tends to be inversely proportional to the amount of use it gets

Cheap functional kit = Ride it like you stole it til it falls apart. Buy another one.

ludicrously expensive bling = used twice a year, mainly in the car park at Llandegla

Sometimes maybe, but I paid a fair bit for my Ay-Ups and they get used for both commuting and night riding; I reckon maybe around 150 times a year minimum. And I don't regret a penny of what was paid.

So if magazines in general only test stuff that is sent to them for free, how come every supplier doesnt send them stuff to test, costs them postage only and gets free advertising and some sales if it gets a good writeup.

More like heres some free stuff to test, and by the way book us a large advert for the next few issues,oh and when youve tested it, please feel free to keep the produict as we cant possibly resell it.

What about all the entry level stuff, that newbies buy,stuff that works and does what it says on the box, not some overpriced stuff ,that few can afford to use or buy.

Overall I'd say the response from at the ST staffers to this thread would suggest a worrying trend for being out of touch with their client-base.

Listen to your readers - you should be reporting what we want, not what you think we want...

They won't listen to you Bullie, easier to class you as a buffoon.

Maybe some people think that STW or similar is more representative of riders in general than it actually is. Is it for the elitist and rich? Nah, but they may make up a slightly greater % of riders who are bike-geeky or product-orientated enough to dwell on forums.

think things have moved from a " get out and ride " mentality and young [ ish ] riders customising stuff on the [ relative ] cheap .now there seems to be more status in having a carbon fibre mega expensive bike that what you do with it . to quiote a previous article in singletrack- mountain biking has become the new golf ,largely middle aged user population with money to spend and people to impress.

(just using your quote as a lead rather than a post-against btw) I'd say that's perception rather than reality, from a media-skewed view. Get out and ride is The Ride, Privateer etc but bigger circulation and lower cost must be driven by ads and product focus.
It's 'the new golf' in the way that more relatively wealthy middle-age blokes are getting into cycling in general (road is also said to be a new golf) and hence a focus of the media is attracting their spend / attention as a cost-effective easy win, but as a way of spending your time and £ it doesn't seem to appeal to that group any more than any other. Less so, perhaps?
I see a huge growth in the area of cycling I work in - making sub-£1000 bikes for ride-to-workers and first/second time buyers, all practical or leisure type bikes. That's great.. more people on bikes is good. Some of them will be future buyers of 5" travel carbon FS bikes with remote lockouts and dropper posts, but most won't be. It's all a bit too geeky for the majority of people who seem more into the 'get on and ride' aspect )

I would say the bias of the mag is a bit too high end for my tastes. I suggest a website poll on the subject!

So, to throw it out there...

I am not familiar with/ used the cheaper brands people are mentioning here - but before i spend loads on a new light, i would definitely like to know what they are like. Going from the stuff above, people seem to like theirs. Bit of a no-brainer to look into it.

More difficult to answer; Exposure and Hope (both mentioned above) both support riders, events etc - surely, thats a good thing. These firms seem to be being painted as ripoff merchants in league with publishers on here, so how does that stack up? Honest question (as i don't have a clue); do the cheaper manufacturers support riders and events in the UK? Shouldn't we value that as (mostly) UK riders? By extension, maybe a little more coverage of those brands giving more to the sport as a whole is no bad thing. IMO, of course..

I think the mag needs to relate better to the readers also, I have noticed over the last few months that it all feels a bit clique, I scratch your back you scratch mine. Contributors all mates together. Now i'm no where near capable of writing an article or review so maybe i'm talking out of turn and if so sorry. Maybe some reviews can be done by capable STW members for a change it may give a feeling of inclusion or real life testing. STW used to do a sticker can't remember how it went fully but something on the lines of the worlds biggest clique, now tongue in cheek thats fine but when the readership feels they are on the outside it's not good. Sorry for waffling im shit at writing what I think. Lastly I may be able to afford some of the reviewed products if I had my 10% discount card 😉

I really would not want to read a magazine that I was featured in. Given that no one commented on my ride photos today, I feel that this observation is bourn out with evidence 🙂

Don't feature then 😉