Starting Strength and Stronglifts

It's a personal thing, peoples recovery rate and work capacity are different.

I think stronglifts are a good starting weight training program, teaches you about progressive loading, deloading and warmup sets. But you can't keep progressing forever while maintaining your cycling.

You have to find a level that you are happy to be able to do with your cycling and then just accept that plateau, rather than keeping pushing higher weights that leave you knackered for cycling.

I tend to push the weights more in winter, and in spring backoff so I have greater capacity for cycling through the better weather.

When taking it seriously I try to do 2 StrongLifts sessions, 3 runs and 1 or 2 rides per week. As the weight and distance/speed go up it gets more difficult to enjoy the rides fully, but at least I’ve got an eeb.

Maybe if you’re 18 and eat like a horse! IME, no, it’s not sustainable, you’ll have to compromise somewhere.

Yes and no.

Stronglifts isn't tiring, because there's so much rest and so few reps. It's only 3 exercises per session, 5 x 5 reps and masses of rest between sets. And you don't need to eat masses* because it's not hypertrophy. If you are already doing that much riding then the lifting will be fine. Just don't add more riding and more lifting at the same time.

On the other hand.......

Stronglifts makes the very oversimplified assumption that if you keep doing the same thing then eventually you'll build up whatever the weak link is. But you're also running the risk of doing some serious injuries to yourself.

Have you deadlifted and squatted much before? If not then it's a surefire way to injure yourself trying to DIY it. I did, don't be like me. And if you avoid injury, then you'll hit a plateau because you're not doing the hypertrophy work to build the muscle to increase the weight.

On the other hand it got me squatting 100kg and deadlifting 120kg before my back gave in, and my bench didn't go badly. But conversely, my strict press didn't move at all. And the row wasn't much better on account of a wonky arm and shoulder.

So now I'm doing all the posture correction, mobility and accessory work I should have done first off.

If you do it, then spend those first few weeks when you're lifting light really nailing the techniques. Do things like paused squats and lengthen them as long as you can hold it. In particular front squats are good as they're harder to do / lighter weight. And video everything. You need to get the techniques and cues absolutely nailed before the weight rises.

I did stronglifts 5x5 a few years back, it'll start out really easy, be like that for a while then suddenly it'll get REALLY hard, and if you've not lifted much before, your form will probably go to hell.

I think I topped out around bodyweight squats (85ish kg).

What are you trying to accomplish, and where are you starting from?

I'm going to start some band exircises in the next few weeks, based around the same compound lifts in stronglifts, so press ups, squats, deadlift, shoulder press, rows - probably twice a week - to build up some strength and a bit of muscle as I'm very skinny at 75kg @ 6ft 3in - my legs have gained a fair bit of muscle thanks to Zwift but my upper body is lacking somewhat...

I need to shift some weight and I’d like to get strong. I completed Ben Plenge’s Strength Factory over 40s plan recently and I’ve used the gym on and off for years. I’ve also done a fair bit of TrainerRoad stuff and on bike intervals in the past. The Strong Lifts type stuff appeals because of the simple, linear progression. I have an Olympic barbell, squat rack etc in the garage.

Frequent heavy squats and cycling don't mix well at the same time. If you are pushing yourself with the weight training, your legs will feel shredded for any proper riding.

Remember to factor in mobility work as well. Tight hamstrings will end up screwing your back.

I was squatting 125kg 3 times a week when I injured my back 10 years ago and it's never been the same since.

I did ir, was up around 150kg squats after a bit, but struggled to ride on my rest days at that point. Am sure there's a happy medium but the progression fast reaches a point where it's taking a lot out of you.

In the past I've done strong lifts and wendler 531. Both of which are excellent programs and even though I'm relatively experienced in weight training I still use them programs after some time away from gym.

Maintaining any significant mileage on a bike alongside such exercise programs will eventually become impossible really. The rest days are pretty vital for progress and riding a bike isn't really going to allow recovery.

They offer an excellent foundation for pretty much any activity though. Real functional strength from squats deads and overhead press are essential for simple tasks like getting on an off the couch when we are old and weak.

Endurance and strength training can interfere (seminal work by a guy called Hickson if you want to read about it) but you have to be going pretty hard to start seeing that sort of inhibition - you'll figure out your own volume limits and what you can take pretty quickly.

Not to belabour the point but massive agreement with posters above saying respect the back. Maybe this isn't you but keen cyclist + desk job + middle aged = zero back. Go super slow on stuff like squats / deadlifts / bent-over rows until you get some lifting strength and form together.

There is almost always an alternative lift available if something doesn't feel right.

Stronglifts isn't rated by serious lifters afaict but it's probably ok - similar to zwift workouts being averagely thought-out but reality is a noob will still make killer gains if they train on zwift. Wendler's 5-3-1 that Anders mentions above is well-rated just to name one alternative but there are loads and anything sensible will work.

The missing discussion here is about periodization. Not meso or micro, you don't need to worry about that. Simply: when do you want to be fast on the bike?

Heavy lifting should be treated as intensity (as in z3 work in the seiler model). As such, do it during, or before your base season. For a typical summer crit / XCO racer that might mean - September break, November start an adaptation phase (lift light to remember how to lift), then bang in a strength program that could be 3-4 times a week during the time you're doing nothing but z1 on the bike. Then as your season progresses, and you get more specific in your training the lifting goes from strength to power to maintenance (1-2*week) to potentially nothing on race weeks.

Oh and go take up yoga.

Thanks for all of the input. I don’t really race. I just ride my bike a lot year round. I’m just looking to do more strength training for general health, injury prevention etc.

The Wendler 5/3/1 sounds interesting. Some research online suggests that he has 2 days per week programs and recommends supplementary exercise on some of th rest days.

TBH if you just want to lift to supplement general fitness/health (which you absolutely should) rather than get "swole" then lifting once or twice a week, listening to what your body tells you rather than rigorously trying to stick to some kind of program, is totally fine. I'd also recommend taking up yoga (as well as).

@beamishblue

If you don't race then you don't need to keep riding 4x a week hard. If you want to avoid burnout or injury, the key is to just treat the lifting sessions as intensity and program them as you would a vo2 or sprint session (before or after a rest day, not back to back with intensity etc).

Enjoy the process and take it slow, and definitely do at least a week or two of just bugger all weight on the bar getting used to it.

Another good starting program that I find easy for beginners to follow is GZCLP.

I've read lots of times that technique is super important with things like deadlifts. For a complete beginner, what's the best / safest way to get it right? I'm sure there are a zillion YouTube videos, but in real life do you just go to a local gym and ask the staff, or consult a physio, Google for some kind of personal trainer, or what?

(I broke my hip and then found I have low (though not crazy low) bone density, so want to start doing *some* strength work, though have no desire to be a bodybuilder!)

I’ve read lots of times that technique is super important with things like deadlifts. For a complete beginner, what’s the best / safest way to get it right?

Absolutely. I spent probably 18 months teaching myself to squat, before I was happy with my technique. Fortunately I didn't get carried away and lift more than I was able, with poor technique, so managed to avoid injury. I spent a lot of time videoing myself from different angles, watching it back & comparing it with online videos, reading tips from forums etc (the Starting Strength forums are pretty helpful & friendly, if you upload a vid they'll critique it for you!!)
If I had to do it over again, 100% I'd just find a properly qualified coach (not necessarily just some random gym staff!!) and pay them to teach me.
(Deadlift is easier IMO but still critical to do it right due to the weights involved. There's also a right and wrong way to bench but IMO you're slightly less likely to injure yourself doing that wrong)

I’ve read lots of times that technique is super important with things like deadlifts. For a complete beginner, what’s the best / safest way to get it right? I’m sure there are a zillion YouTube videos, but in real life do you just go to a local gym and ask the staff, or consult a physio, Google for some kind of personal trainer, or what?

Couple of options:
1) Video yourself, generally from the side, yes it looks odd to anyone who doesn't lift weights but it's by far the easiest way to identify where your weakness are. It's free, but does require more research and knowledge, and like most things you cant know what you don't know you don't know.
2) Just ask people, 99% of people in gyms are friendly and more than happy to watch you lift, spot you or offer advice if asked. And 99% of people working out alone, especially powerlifters, are bored and waiting for their rest timer to tick down. Ditto if someone's doing a similar weight, ask if you can work in with them.
3) Join a strength and conditioning gym. Good ones will run classes on everything from Olympic lifts to getting stones onto platforms. Typically they're more expensive than puregym, but still cheaper than virgin, david loyd, hotel chains etc. And unlike puregym will have a 1:1 ratio of racks to cardio kit, so you're not always waiting on kit.
4) Get a PT to look at your form once a month. Or go the next step and get a coach. It might be £40/hour, but physio is double that 🤣

Ironically, within sensible limits, deadlifts are probably safer than squats. They're intrinsically safe because they start hard (getting the weight off the floor) and then it's easy. Whereas it's easy to put more weight on a squat than you can handle, manage the eccentric phase, then use some awful technique to get up again.

I’ve read lots of times that technique is super important with things like deadlifts. For a complete beginner, what’s the best / safest way to get it right? I’m sure there are a zillion YouTube videos, but in real life do you just go to a local gym and ask the staff, or consult a physio, Google for some kind of personal trainer, or what?

I mainly do Romanian DLs for my weedy cyclist hamstrings - they only start to feel good and natural once you figure out the core engagement ime (also feels like a very safe exercise at comfy weights).

Every noob know that rounding the back is very bad for DL with weight on the bar, but you can go too far the other way with a very proud chest, looking up a bit too much and an arched back. This is less egregiously bad but prevents good core engagement ime - watch some vids of experienced deadlifters and the spine is more neutral.

End of the day this stuff is not difficult - it's hardly technical mountain biking. If you're talking about just getting a safe squat and deadlift together to lift for health then start easy, take advice IRL, and you'll have it figured out no prob.

Here's my plan at the moment. It's based on Wendler 531 but I subbed out Bench for Pendlay Rows and added a day of cleans.

Monday: Squats
Main - 531
Accessory - 5x5 Front squat, First set last
All reps ATG and paused

Tuesday: Overhead Press
Main - 531
Accessory - 5x5 Paused at sticking point, First set last
5xAMRAP Pullups

Wednesday: Cleans
Main - 5x3
Accessory - Dips 5xAMRAP
Upright Row 5x5

Thursday: Deadlift
Main - 531
Accessory - 3x5 RDL, First set last
3x5 Deficit paused deadlift, First set last

Friday: Pendlay Rows
Main - 531
Accessory - 5x5 paused at top, First set last
5xAMRAP Push ups

I just train in my basement. I made a set of squat stands that also hold the plates so it doesn't take up too much space. I roll out of bed, go downstairs, drink some water, make a cafetiere of coffee, and bring it downstairs. My warm-up is burpees and bringing the weights out from the storage room, plus warm up sets of the exercise I'm going to be doing that day.

From getting out of bed to finishing putting away the weights at the end of the session takes between 45 minutes to an hour so I think it's about as efficient as I can make it.

The only part of the training I 'have' to do is the main 531 lifts. If I'm not feeling great or if I've got a big ride coming up I just do the prescribed reps and don't bother with the + for the final sets.

You'll see a lot of people saying you don't need a deload every 4th week. Maybe these people don't but I certainly do. It's also useful if you've got a big ride coming up to maybe juggle the weeks around a bit to schedule the deload week for the big riding week.

How often do you ride, BruceWee?

Thursday: Deadlift
Main – 531
Accessory – 3×5 RDL, First set last
3×5 Deficit paused deadlift, First set last

That's a lot of deadlifting.

Personally I'd either DL, RDL, SLDL and then move onto something like Dimmels (or do the deadlifts as 1.5 reps where you do one DL then one RDL/Dimmel to work your glutes harder). Or go straight from the DL to Bulgarian Split Squats to burn out the legs without putting more strain on the posterior chain.

How often do you ride, BruceWee?

20km per day commuting (with a trailer so difficulty varies depending on the wind) and then I normally ride mtb Saturday and/or Sunday plus the occasional mid week spin. Just however much I feel like doing.

If I'm riding more then I tend to ease back on the lifting (ie, not going all out on the final set or skipping accessory work).

That’s a lot of deadlifting.

It depends really.

My last DL day before I went on holiday I did 120kg for 13 reps (probably RPE 8 so I maybe had a couple of reps in me) on the last 531 set but the two previous were 105 for 3 and 95 for 5. Then RDLs and paused deficit with 95.

Also bear in mind this was the final week before deload. The week before the accessory work was done with 87.5kg and the week before that it was 80kg.

I'm doing the paused deficit because I found I was starting to get stuck on the floor so this really helped me blast through a plateau. I'm not going to drop RDLs because imo it's the absolutely best exercise for mountain biking.

On squat and DL the accessory work is just there to help the main lifts (except RDLs which I'm going to do anyway). If it needs to be adjusted up or down or if I need to swap other exercises in or out in the future then I'll quite happily do that. I don't do accessory work unless it's addressing a specific weakness in the main lift.

I just realised I put Pendlay rows on the wrong day, they should be swapped with OHP. Doing Pendlay rows the day after DLs would be a recipe for disaster, I reckon.

That's quite a workload Bruce! Have you been doing this a long time? What percentages of your 1RM are you tending to work at?

I've done various powerlifting style training and other gym stuff over the past few years. I'm not very talented at it, definitely better at pedalling for hours than lifting very heavy things quickly. Regarding MTBing, I found heavy squat day needed to be further from riding days, heavy deadlift day wasn't so bad. Lighter (for me) squat etc days didn't have such a negative impact, nor accessories and variations. It is a juggling act regarding energy depending on the rest of your life (the busier and more stressed you are, the harder is to handle the exercise load).

I should add that after some years of trying to squat well I had to accept that my right ankle is too badly damaged to let me get to parallel whatever I do (my proportions demand particularly high ankle mobility) so I've quit doing them now. If you're not a bendy youngster then be aware of these challenges - you could do more hard than good. It's not that you need tons of mobility but you need enough. And form is crucial. I found deadlifting without a belt was safer for me because it spread any curvature across more vertebrae and gave me a better feel for how my form was.

This is the PDF version of the YouTube video I found on how to assess and correct mobility and posture issues for the gym.

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AGIWtqtcSZLkL98&cid=66C190E6BA17A3E4&id=66C190E6BA17A3E4%21123122&parId=66C190E6BA17A3E4%21123108&o=OneUp

If you wanted simplicity you could do something like 5x5 but call it 3x12 and make it a hypertrophy block for 8 weeks. Just bear in mind that doing 12 squats with propper form is harder than 5 at any weight. 5 I can do holding my breath, because there comes a point where you have to brace even at the top so there isn't a safe time to breath out, but 12 requires you to learn to breath through the bracing. And use the mobility work as your accessories. Then just add appropriate finishers like split squats, assisted pull ups, latt raises, barbell cleans etc.

Basicly I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with 5x5 as a basis, it's just powerlifting with a couple of extras. But if you set a target of say 4 months, then doing 8 weeks hypertrophy, deload, then 8 weeks strength will yield better results than just 5x5 alone.

The person I've got coaching would disagree (they hate 5x5), but then they're one of those mad people that meets a hundred other mad people in a field to pull tractors and throw beer kegs over things rather than drink them.

That’s quite a workload Bruce! Have you been doing this a long time? What percentages of your 1RM are you tending to work at?

Actually, I don't think the workload is that high. Like I said, from rolling out of bed to putting the weights away takes 45 to 60 minutes. There's only really 1 hard working set each workout. Week 3 tends to be tough for the accessories as well but then there's the deload week after.

I've been lifting for around 25 years but it's been very on and off (and since the kids arrived it's been very much more off than on).

Turning 40 seems to have caused some sort of panic to set in so last October I started this schedule and have stuck to it up until I went on holiday a couple of weeks ago.

1RMs and reps depend on the week with Week 1 being 75% of 1RM, Week 2 85%, Week 3 being 95%, and week 4 60%. Weeks 1-3 are AMRAP sets (although I normally leave 1 or 2 in the tank on squat and DL) while week 4 is only 5 reps. Saying that, you calculate based on 90% of your 1RM initially but as you start to stall you'll end up going beyond 100% of your 1RM (remember the heaviest you go is 95% of 1RM) so eventually you'll hit your actual 1RM and have to reset.

My theoretical DL 1RM should be around 140kg but the percentages were being calculated from 125kg. Hence my DL sets tend to be 10 to 13 reps.

On Squats my theoretical 1RM is around 115kg which also matches where I am in the program. Therefore my reps are more like 2 to 6.

Not very clear, I know. Most of the time it's probably around 70 - 90% of 1RM on the main lifts. Probably 50 -70% for the accessory sets.

Because I'm only 9 months in I'm still making progress on everything but I was getting closer to stalling and failing on OHP and Squats so they were going to have to be reset soon.

“There’s only really 1 hard working set each workout.”

Ah, that’s a lot more manageable!

I brought deadlifts back in a month or so ago and they feel heavy after a year or two off them. Did a few weeks of conventional glass floor (slow eccentric soft touch on the floor) and am doing deficit in the same style right now.

MTBing on a singlespeed at the moment which feels like good strength training too!