[Closed] 'Standards' in MTB boil my pi55....

2.2/10

piss poor rant really....

Surely it only effects you if you actually buy them?

Which means that in theory the new Boost forks I've just bought will over time become obsolete. 20mm axles were always better (IMO) so they've brought them back only you'll have to shim your rotor (bodge) this time as they're using yet ANOTHER standard.

I think it's about time we stopped calling everything a "Standard" that way we can more easily accept gradual changes and evolution of the products we use

While your forks will not become obsolete I understand the frustration :0)

I gave up on buying anything new a little while ago until things settle down a bit. Got a dj I like because it's like bmx and skateboarding in the way that very little changes substantially over time, just small improvements.

I'll probably ride my 26", straight steerer, qr rear mtb frame with 2x9 and just replace parts as I go until it's death

So, when I moved from my 26" 110x20 fork to my 659b 100x15 it was actually a backwards step?

How do your hubs stop working with your forks? Do your axles get wider?

No, I'm obviously referring to when I want to change the wheels, or have a second set of wheels with different tyres, or want to swap wheels between bikes. But as per normal you seem to contradict everything I post about so crack on...

In the interest of balance, I've got over my frustration about this. I have a 4 year old bike with 26" wheels, a double chainring and my dropper post isn't even stealth (shock horror). I love my bike more than ever. It *used* to be frustrating when my bike was new and obsolete but now it's old and obsolete I've got over myself 😆

I've just bought some new 27.5 wheels for the new build, and as they came with a choice of axle sizes, I went with 20mm as my new 36s can take that size (just need to pop the 15mm clamp adapters out and use the other shims).

So now my new bike has the same 20mm front axle system as my old 2009 hardtail with marzocchi 55s....

Have I gone back in time, or forwards ?

Well to be honest think about it, if all the world makes is 20mm hubs will you just plug in the 15 adaptors like people currently do? There are some standards that have changed and make things tough but this isn't one of them, it's a tiny little change that will probably have no impact on you at all.

Well to be honest think about it, if all the world makes is 20mm hubs will you just plug in the 15 adaptors like people currently do?

Yes, but I'll be doing it with my angry face on...

I get what you're saying and in part agree - historically it hasn't bothered me but yet another new standard (although minor) is the last straw for me. I wanted to buy a new frame and move all my old parts across but that's looking to be a right mission at the moment. The easy answer to all of this is stop buying stuff.....

I've just bought a bike with 'new' standards, 142 rear and 15mm front. These are obviously old standards now and out of date but I'm coming from QR rear and 20mm front so I'm getting moderner.
First bike with tapered head tube as well, will I notice?

I bet they come out with something like bikes with electric motors next. Or something. I won't buy one of those neither.

Which means that in theory the new Boost forks I've just bought will over time become obsolete

Everything you own now, or owned in the past, or will own again will at some point become obsolete.

I to have felt the rage of my new shiny thing becoming obsolete, almost immediately, I bought a very nice 26" one September, a few weeks later the new ones arrived, all 650b, I bought 10sp just before 11 arrived, I’ve owned straight steerer tubed forks and even once a 1.5” straight steerer fork. My current bike, which I need to keep for at least another 3 years is only a year old, but it’s non-boost so ‘old’.
I ranted and raved at every new ‘standard’, I blame SRAM usually, more often than not I see their innovations as a way to screw with Shimano and Fox and of dubious advantage – but really, after more than a few years of this, the thing I’ve learned is none of it matters.

You can be riding a 3x7 V-Braked hardtail from 15 years ago and it’s still serviceable – if there is something that’s going to kill it, it’ll be suspension fork service items, and that’s nothing to do with standards, that’s just age.

This idea that we’re going to be forced to scrap our bikes because they don’t make old standard bits anymore just hasn’t come to pass – if you can still buy 24” tyres for the rear of your 2002 Spesh Big Hit, I’m sure you’ll still be able to get Boost, but not new-boost hubs for a long while yet. As for resale value, does it really matter – 650b was and unpleasant watershed moment for some, but the expensive stuff is still expensive and the cheap stuff still cheap, the massive value drop ‘over night’ didn’t really come to pass.

I've just bought a bike with 'new' standards, 142 rear and 15mm front. These are obviously old standards now and out of date but I'm coming from QR rear and 20mm front so I'm getting moderner.
First bike with tapered head tube as well, will I notice?

Yeah, it's not even Boost. What were you thinking 🙂

They have helpfully made the outside of the headtube tapered too though so you should notice. Blowed if I could feel a difference though.

Just to add, I can still get the new Mk3 Stans Arch Rims in 26", Hope and DT are still selling regular non boost hubs, I can still get 26" forks or run 650b ones in there if I need to. Things are changing but not being dropped.

I realised the other day that I have zero idea what 'standards' I have on my Alpine 160. Bought the bike as I loved the way it rode etc with absolute blissful ignorance about bottom brackets, front and rear hub spacing, axle sizes, headsets etc etc.

I just ride it.

For me it's the press folk at fault for not challenging the need for change, and also just reporting press releases about such and such a 'standard' when it clearly isn't.

I get what people are saying about legacy items being available, but this constant change of 'specs' is just putting me off mtbing and I know I'm not the only one.

My steel 26 inch hardtail still rides great. Fortunately it has a 44mm head tube so when my Revelations finally die I can pop some tapered forks in there.
Probably the bike I'll never sell. Not worth much anyway.

I do laugh at all the new 'standards' 3mm wider here and different thru axles there. Not worth worrying about though.
I imagine Gwin would notice the difference. Most of us (well me at least)...not so much.

[quote=dragon ] this constant change of 'specs' is just putting me off mtbing and I know I'm not the only one.It just doesn't affect me like that. I get a bike, ride it, it doesn't get "worse" in any way. When I decide to change, I change it. Some of the new "standards", I've been very grateful for. Fatbikes, Boost, even I can notice the difference in a through-axle compared to a QR and I'm a mincer.

Move from 9.m qr to some form of through axel = improvement
Love between slight variations=. No improvement, but less chance you could swap parts easily with another bike / mate borrow a wheel, buy that quick replacement wheel while on a trip as a small shop probably doesn't carry every. Combination.

[img] [/img]

Yeah, it's not even Boost. What were you thinking

How will I dare show my face at the cafe at Llandegla? 😉

The huge raft of 'new' standards has saved me a fortune!

If things were still 26", 142 and 20mm front axles I'd have bought a new frame, probably some carbon wheels too. But because of the industry I've sat quite happily with my 26" bouncer. I'd need to spend >£3k to get something slightly better and that's hard to justify.

The thing that worries me is if something major breaks, I'll have to spend money on an already obsolete replacement component, or sell my 26" stuff for next to nothing and buy a whole new bike

For those to frothy to read the article, the 20 mm BOOST standard differs from the old 20x110 axles in that they've moved the brake mounts outboard by 5 mm so that they can increase the hub flange spacing.

I've got two cars on the drive and I can't even swap the wheels between them. Damn standards.

[I]*smugly thinks of the 26", straight-steerer forked, QR, 3*9, tubed, hardtail sitting in the garage at home that works perfectly fine*[/I]

I didn't read the entire link, but I guess the summary is that the new 110mmx20mm is a bit like the old 110mmx20mm just sufficiently different to warrant new hubs, new forks and probably something else.

Or have I read that wrong?

[ninja edit]

For those to frothy to read the article, the 20 mm BOOST standard differs from the old 20x110 axles in that they've moved the brake mounts outboard by 5 mm so that they can increase the hub flange spacing.

Ah. Pitchforks at the ready, people.

P-Jay - Member

Everything you own now, or owned in the past, or will own again will at some point become obsolete.

Yep and I'm fine with that when it has benefits that outweigh the downside. 135x12 to 142x12 has real world benefits, frinstance, and was relatively backwards compatible (not all hubs are adaptable but all hubs could be, if the manufacturers bothered).

When it's obviously change for its own sake, that can **** off. The change most noticable from boost hubs is more people clipping their heels on the frame. There's a noticable benefit for any nichemongers wanting to run dual ring on a 3 inch back tyre. For everyone else it's snake oil. Oh the wheels are .1% stiffer? That'd be worth changing parts for, if we'd exhausted other ways to make wheels stiffer but when manufacturers who happily sold their bikes with flexy wheels suddenly tell us that you need new hubs for stiffness (which will probably still be badly built with flexy wheels...)

Everyone that rejected bigger hub flanges but now recommends Boost can get to **** too, they're enemies of the people

This one seems a wise change… you can use old hubs/wheels, or you can fit hubs with a wider flange spacing for stronger wheels. No complaints from me.

I'll consider each new option on its merits. For me, compatibility of existing parts is key.

I still don't know if Boost 15x110 and Boost148 were wise moves as regards improvements vs compatibility headaches, but that ship has long since sailed. I don't think further options/changes should be tarred by the merits or not of that one.

The thing that irks is that these aren't gradual evolutionary progressions. None of it is based on new technology or engineering revelations. We have known the limitations of hub spacing, dishing rec for decades.

jI've got two cars on the drive and I can't even swap the wheels between them. Damn standards.

I don't see the relavence. Argument seems to be about creating needless competing standards. You cite a completely different more complicated product with a very different history of development

I think the way to avoid the stress of this is to buy a bike and run it as is, and replace parts like with like when they break/wear. As someone pointed out above, 26" parts are still very easy to find and cheap too.

The proliferation of standards is most annoying if you're the kind of person who likes to build up bikes or share wheels or upgrade/customize a build etc.

It definitely causes faster depreciation than would otherwise happen.

Just avoid anything too exotic, I've had bad experiences with FSA cranksets where it was cheaper and easier to buy a whole Shimano cransket and BB than source the FSA-specific BB when it wore out.

I don't see the relavence. Argument seems to be about creating needless competing standards. You cite a completely different more complicated product with a very different history of development

OK, try seeing it the other way around, why do you care that the hub for a rockshox fork even fits in a Fox fork? Especially when the hub often costs less than 5% of the fork?

The reason we had standards/interchangeability was because it made things cheap whilst the sport was small. Now if a company want's to built an entire bike in house they can do (I'm thinking Specialized and the old Enduro SL, Cannondale, etc) and make it even cheaper or better.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

OK, try seeing it the other way around, why do you care that the hub for a rockshox fork even fits in a Fox fork?

You can move parts from one bike to another. You can replace the fork without replacing the hub. You can replace parts easily when they break and you have a wider choice of upgrades. You can sell the wheel and more people can use it. You can use more parts in your existing fork. You can swap parts between your bikes. Shops can carry less inventory, creating cost savings and improving availability for customers (without standardisation, good luck walking into a shop and buying anything you want- everyone with daft spokes in a wheel knows how this works). Manufacturers can sell more of each product creating economies of scale. Parts can be used for longer, reducing waste. It's less likely that you get screwed because a part is discontinued, because there are alternatives.

Am I missing something in your question? These seem too obvious.

You can move parts from one bike to another. You can replace the fork without replacing the hub. You can replace parts easily when they break and you have a wider choice of upgrades. You can sell the wheel and more people can use it. You can use more parts in your existing fork. You can swap parts between your bikes. Shops can carry less inventory, creating cost savings and improving availability for customers (without standardisation, good luck walking into a shop and buying anything you want- everyone with daft spokes in a wheel knows how this works). Manufacturers can sell more of each product creating economies of scale. Parts can be used for longer, reducing waste. It's less likely that you get screwed because a part is discontinued, because there are alternatives.

This +1

So they have developed a Boost DH hub, how many of you have DH bikes?

All the standards is why I've elected to stick with the bike I have. It won't fit any of the standards of today and it makes '...the trails appear perfectly alive thank you for asking'on a 26" not fat, straight head tubed, non electric, 9-speed, QR, alu tubed, externally routed, screwed in bottom bracket, non-uppy-downy seat-posted triple-ringed type monstrosity.
When the industrial magic bull-pooh roundabout slows down a bit we might go shopping, until then no thanks.

STATO - Member

So they have developed a Boost DH hub, how many of you have DH bikes?

Both of mine took 135 rear wheels, it was great

I just bought a new (to me) frame that was older than my one.
Had to buy new (to me) wheels as had gone from 142x12 -> 135QR at the back and mine didn't have changeable hubs, but now have Hope Pro 2 Evos so should be good for a while.
Also had to get a new (to me) dropper post as had gone from 31.6mm -> 30.9mm, but new one has a shim if I want to go up a size again.

And I thought I'd got away with it too!

You can move parts from one bike to another. You can replace the fork without replacing the hub. You can replace parts easily when they break and you have a wider choice of upgrades. You can sell the wheel and more people can use it. You can use more parts in your existing fork. You can swap parts between your bikes. Shops can carry less inventory, creating cost savings and improving availability for customers (without standardisation, good luck walking into a shop and buying anything you want- everyone with daft spokes in a wheel knows how this works). Manufacturers can sell more of each product creating economies of scale. Parts can be used for longer, reducing waste. It's less likely that you get screwed because a part is discontinued, because there are alternatives.

But.....

At no point in all of that did you give any reason covering it's actual use. More time riding, less worrying about upgrades.

And in most cases there will be someone making a widget the make whatever it is compatible anyway. In this case, a 5mm disk spacer?

Actually hang on a minute? Weren't Marzocchi 20mm forks designed with a bigger offset to the disk? You're all getting your knickers in a twist over something Marzocchi were doing 10+ years ago! Note the ohhh so hard to deal with extra 5mm of material.

[img] [/img]

I love new standards

As I'm still riding 26" wheels, non boost it means a steady supply of cheap parts on eBay

thisisnotaspoon - Member

At no point in all of that did you give any reason covering it's actual use.

Except for absolutely all of them.

At the other end of the scale I did note the manitou [url= http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/sea-otter-2017-answermanitou-and-the-new-forks/ ]"MARKHOR"[/url] is being released, apparently to satisfy the luddite market, and it's only 2.5kg 😀

I am now tired of ranting about the various forms of cycle industry ****tery and overuse of the word "innovation" to describe minor, incremental changes...

I did like this little gem though,

You know, Vernon, I was talking to Brent Foes the other day about this and you know the last time I folded a front wheel? It was 1992.

So the fella trying to flog us yet another hub/axle standard is basically saying that, for the vast majority at least, wheels were pretty much good enough ~25 years ago?