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“You can ride on it for a little I suspect but from what I’m seeing as it’s less dense than the likes of cushcore I wouldn’t want to ride on it for long?”
With the full insert in, its like riding on a too soft tyre, even if it can't hold any air.
Obviously you want it back to optimum asap, but as long as you nurse it, you can actually ride on it ok.
I'm sold on how the insert changes the feel of the tyre. I alluded to it on post about my first test some months ago, and completely agree with amedias.
This is looking promising, I’ve got procore in all my bikes but been less than impressed tbh...
Pro core works, and I havent punctured since, and no damage on any rims where before it was a problem for me, but both the inner and outer on every wheel need to inflated every time I ride, I’m sure the actual valves leak air slowly.... long time tubeless user, the pub bike is tubeless and hasn’t needed air topping up in over a year! So it’s an annoying hassle.
so might go down this route when my nearly new tyres need replacement.
I found procore wasn't for me too.
tagged for future mod to the bikes 🙂
Not quite as cheap as the closed cell foam backing rod stuff, but has anyone looked at Ratbites? 18 quid per wheel, in a range of sizes. Seem reasonably priced if you don't fancy the faff of cutting backing rod down. Very strongly considering a punt on one for my back wheel.
This is looking promising, I’ve got procore in all my bikes but been less than impressed tbh…
Pro core works, and I havent punctured since, and no damage on any rims where before it was a problem for me, but both the inner and outer on every wheel need to inflated every time I ride, I’m sure the actual valves leak air slowly…. long time tubeless user, the pub bike is tubeless and hasn’t needed air topping up in over a year! So it’s an annoying hassle.
so might go down this route when my nearly new tyres need replacement.
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Thats odd as I have Pro Core on one set of wheels that I only use for Alpine or rocky stuff and they’re fine for months.
Its not perfect though, I have punctured the inner tube both fitting it and riding. I’ve just fixed the tubes with patches, it’s rare and they deflated slowly. The Valves can be a pain for clogging too.
WTF is a ratbite?
I googled it and all I got was, uh, rat bites. It that an auto correct?
It is advised that the insert is inspected and potentially changed every 2 months.
From the rat bite home page....
sounds like longevity could be an issue?
or a sales tactic 🤔
the ratbite site doesnt inspire me to buy anything from them.
Sounds like ratbite are adding on 15 quid lazy tax to people who think it's a faff to cut (with a bread knife if you must) once and put in a hole for a zip tie.
I saw the new Mr Wolf system at Malvern today. Full mousse insert with a small diameter inner tube to adjust feel. Looked pretty good but it's £110. Per wheel!
OMG, that's one flakey e-com site from the 90s!
Looks like very similar material to backer rod foam. I note their pictures seem to shy away from product detail.
£15 lazy tax could be right.
Well I'm pretty lazy, so just hit the buy button, I will report on arrival.
Looking for some for 40mm stuff for 29x2.4 tyres. Has anyone ordered 20m of it and got some left overs they're looking rid of?
Based on this thread l ordered some 40mm and 50mm which turned up yesterday. I'm assuming its going to be like fitting a semi-inflated inner tube that's not as pliable.
So couple of questions before I steam in trying to fit it -
1) Should it be a tight/at least snug fit in the rim
2) Lap joint with zip ties and duct tape or another way of jointing the 2 ends
3) Better to fit full circle of cut in half (semi circle)
4) Should I have just bought a cushcore or similar purpose made kit
Cheers
Carl
I cut it to butt joint and zip tied it and pulled tight till it was snug on the rim.
I went with a whole round 40mm and it has let me get back to the car without running on the rim when sealant wouldn't work. Can't see a half cut one doing that job.
trail rat +1.
I've consistently said I think it's too low density to mirror cushcore without using its thickness to compensate.
Ok so Day1 in the alps natural stuff around let arcs with a bit of the black DH. My rim tape let go a proper huck norris in the rear and I could ride to a point to pump back up on three occasions. It was flat but doable.
Mate had a ratbite which looks and feels a lot like the 50mm packing rod I tried he had one moment of loss of pressure and the ratbite is looking tatty. Issues mean he's back in with a tube but the lower density ratbite has definitely suffered more than the huck, which does show a couple of bites.
And the high-density foam is expensive.
There appear to be at least three functions this type of thing serves, and different approaches serve them to different degrees.
-- pinch protection - all about placing a cushion between the area being pinched to spread the impact out and protect the rim (and tyre?) from permanent damage. Procore and high density foam ought to do this, low density foam not so good/durable judging by the accounts above.
- changing the tyre behaviour when not pinching - Procore will do this, some reports above say low density foam does, though I struggle to see the mechanism for it, high density foam a la Huck Norris wouldn't much, Cushcore ought to.
- keeping the tyre on the rim - anti-burping. Procore and Cushcore ought to do this, not sure about the others. Possibly there will be some effect with continuous low-density foam solutions as the foam gets pushed into the rim well by air pressure. If that happens.
This is not beyond the wit of man to test under laboratory conditions if anyone could be arsed. I would think the likes of messrs Schwalbe have done so, they seem keen on testing.
Anyone tried this with cx yet? Not cx racing but more taking your cx bike out on rides that are probably officially unsuitable for a cx bike (eg mtb trails with plenty of rocks or, come to think of it, something like the Three Peaks)
"low density foam not so good/durable judging by the accounts above."
had mine out last week after about 700km about 200 of that in the cairngorms on the natural rocks and waterbars a couple enduro races and at least 1 run from near the top of the larig au laoigh with a flat tire through rocks and waterbars down to derry lodge before i was able to get it to hold air and theres no rim damage - thats the main reason i went to foam of some kind as i went from really badly dented d521s to some dt enduro rims that are renound for not only denting but workhardening and cracking when you bend em back ..... .
held the tire on the rim and kept the shape. I also burp alot less , prior to fitting this i went through a phase of burping my front tire in hard cornering even with 30psi in..... now im down to about 22-24.
took it out anyway and yes it has a couple of cuts but nothing im going to be replacing it for any time soon.
My 50mm rod in a 2.6" rear tyre has some cuts but still looking pretty decent. I typically run 28psi, it's a Bontrager SE4 and I've had no burps, pinches or flats, despite several times at BPW, a couple of Enduro races and a weekend riding in Sanremo, in between my usual riding.
Not sure about all the sciencey stuff as to how/why it works, but it definitely does have a benefit.
I've got a 50mm uncut backer rod in the front and a 50mm cut in the rear (experimenting). The rear half diameter rod was enough to hold the tyre on the bead and let me ride 2km back (carefully) to the car after tearing a knobble off the tyre and it going flat in about 10 seconds on a downhill. Getting the tyre off was a mare as the foam was holding it really tight against the bead.
When I did get the tyre off there were quite a few longitudinal cuts from the rim.
I'm convinced it's worth continuing with the experiment, not least as I like running low pressures but don't like dinging rims (and I'm tight!).
I am running an uncut 50mm backer rod in the front, 29mm internal rim and 2.35 Magic Mary.
Feels good, happy with the feel on the trail and it's staying put for the Alps.
Have a Cushcore in the rear... again happy but actually prefer the feel from the backer.
Have ran Procore for a couple of years.... needs tlc but did a good job. Couple of years back did 90,000m descent in the Alps with SG Schwalbes, Procore and Stans race.... Never a problem.
Big advocate of running some protection, just so nice to hit sections with confidence that would have had me protecting wheels/tyres before.
Being time poor and (temporarily) cash rich I bought a Ratbite insert on Monday to go in the rear after I trashed a tyre at the weekend. It arrived today, so nice and quick on the delivery as he promised.
It's a bit more refined than backer rod foam, being profiled with radiused edges and a grove down the centre. It fits in the tyre, rather than round the rim, and I'll give it a proper test on Sunday.
Incidentally, I rode 1.5 miles back to car on a flat tyre and it was still firmly seated in the bead.
Took the backer rod out of the back wheel. It seems to enjoy soaking up Stans (and also Oko diluted with water 50:50). Denser material needed.
strange mine never soaked up the sealant.
Mines not been soaking up Caffe latex.
To be fair. Stan's didn't seem to do all that much anyway hence why I switched.
I'll give the spare rod a try. The original one had a fer holes drilled through it to allow the sealant to pass easier - didn't work, it seems!
Latest update from me...
This weekend I survived yet another biblically wet 24/12, and used it as an opportunity to try the inserts on a longer event in an XC setting.
Setup was thus:
- 19mm internal Rim
- 2.0inch TR tyre
- 30mm backer rod (complete)
- On a MK1 Scalpel with a whopping 67mm of rear travel
I've ridden this setup briefly before as a test and already worked out I could either lose 5psi or run as normal and have extra support and protection. During the dry laps in the morning I opted for the normal setup and ran at about 28-30psi and just got on with it. Newnham isn't that technical but there are lots of roots and pointy rocks that can easily cause a pinch if you're going full gas and get sloppy and I was (attempting) to nail the descents, quickest lap was a smidge over 31 mins and I wasn't holding back, no issues whatsoever despite thumping the rim a couple of times to the point where I winced but got away with it, who knows if the rod saved me or not....?
When the bad weather came in over night my rather optimistic tyre choice was causing me a few issues losing traction so I dropped the pressure down to about ~23-25psi and regained some composure on the slippy bits. I stopped mid lap to let a bit more out, can't be sure but probably down to about 19-20psi which felt pretty soft to the thumb test for a measly 2.0 inch tyre, but when riding felt like it was firmer, so probably the volume compensation thing kicking in there and it felt more stable than that kind of pressure ever has with those tyres on that rim.
At the lower pressure I was regularly feeling muted contact on some of the faster rooty sections and was happy that I didn't have to be quite as careful as I would normally. Also felt a bit more contact on the rocky descents but tyre felt nice and stable and again no issues, this time I'm convinced the backer rod helped as there's no way I'd have got away with that pressure and that amount of contact without it.
So to conclude, I'll be continuing to use them as there seems to be literally no downside, the weight is negligible and effects all positive. I'll probably experiment a bit more with the bigger rods in bigger tyres to work out the volume thing a bit more, I might even try a 3/4 cut 40mm in the 2.0 inch tyres at some point.
I'm toying with the idea of trying one of these cut in half in the rear, on a 2.6" tyre to see how it compares to 50mm rod in the same tyre:
Will report back!
My 2p's worth after a month or so running the 40mm backer rod. Its in a Maxxis Aggressor 2.5 WT on a Hope 650b DH Tech rim on the rear and it definitely works. I pulled the rod together to make a hoop round the rim and trimmed off an additional 40mm or so, meaning it was short of joining up if wrapped round the rim. So, off the rim I joined it with 2x zip ties and a short wrap of tape. Fitting it onto the rim I had to stretch it on a little but this ensured that it sat in the rim well and wasn't floppy inside the tyre. Tyre seated 1st time with a track pump and minimal effort. Cutting a small cross in the valve aids inflation too.
Running 26-28psi, (feels firmer) its stable at speed over a wide range of surfaces, I've not had any fitting issues, doesn't seem to soak up the Stans, although I guess this would change if it was cut length-ways. When pressing on you do get the occasional "oh shit!!... I've got a flat" feeling but so far, touch wood its just that.. a feeling. I've cased a couple of rocks and roots round the Peak that would have probably pinch flatted had the rod not been fitted and its taken the hits without issue.
I've got a 50mm rod still in the garage and plan to try this next time. I think fitting the tyre might prove a bit tricky though due to the volume it takes up.
All in all I'm pretty impressed for just over a tenner
Carlos
would 50mm backer rod be Ok in a 3.0 plus tyre on a 45mm rim Or will i need something bigger? and is bigger available?
@lawmanmx have a look at my link a couple of posts above, that's 65mm so probably a better bet I reckon, should do a better job supporting sidewalls on that setup. I'm using 50mm in a 2.6" tyre on a 33mm internal rim so that seems a sensible step up 👍
mmmmmhhh? they look a bit 'flimsy' compared to the solid backer rod stuff tho Andy, have you got yours yet? if so, what is it like in comparison?
Should be here tomorrow so I'll report back!
Soooo, has anyone tried a 50mm backer rod in a 3.0 plus tyre yet?
I Ordered from ratbite as it was a last minute decision before Alps trip.
Bit of a ballache getting the tyre mounted. 29er hope rim, 2.35 SG Schwalbe tyres. Had to cable tie the tyre as I worked round as the thick side walls plus the insert kept pushing the tyre back off. Got there in the end though and as I found out later it's easier with two people.
Probably ran my pressures to high as I wanted to avoid problems so can't comment on feel or effectiveness........ Last day though a broken spoke pushed through the rim tape resulting in total air loss. Scratched my head over what to do exactly as I couldn't be bothered to pull the insert out to run with a tube as it was nearly the end of the trip. So balls to it..... Rolled down quite a long rough trail for 5/10 mins on just the insert only. I was being carefull obviously but was surprised how good the insert coped. Started super slow but kept getting a bit quicker as the tyre kept its shape, just felt like low pressure.
Insert is wrecked now though. Got me thinking it would be good for races where it would get you to the end of a stage quicker than fixing.
Think I'll order a big roll of backer rod and experiment with size and pressures.
As mentioned the ratbite stuff is cleanly cut in half 50mm with radius edges and a channel down the middle.
Backer rod after a weeks Alps riding, I was aware of a few hard strikes on the rim on some descents. No damage to either the tyre or the rim.
I'm happy with how its performed for a couple of £
What size wheel,tyre and rod Bruneep?
27.5 DT swiss E1700 25mm / Maxxis Minion SS 2.3 and 40mm rod
First puncture for a while yesterday, three rides into my backer rod trial. To be honest one leak was the tyre tread (so a cut from a rock etc) and one was what I assume an existing dent. It was ok doing the 1km back but certainly wouldn't run it flat for long periods of time out of choice!
I did notice the rod was now a bit rattly inside the wheel, didn't pop the bead so off as the sealant worked so hoping the cable tie join hasn't failed and its just compressed a bit.
Ride feel is definitely different, actually feels worse at higher pressures as its draggy/damp feeling. Once you drop the pressure it feels better. This is 50mm backer complete in a 2.35 aggressor on 32mm internal (perhaps right on the border of the smallest tyre this rim would suit..)
I bought some of this to try in my rear wheel, it was a new setup a couple of weeks ago, I filled the tyre with 100ml of Muc Off sealant.
I removed the tyre this weekend out of curiosity and noticed that all bar around 30ml of the sealant had been absorbed by the backer rod. Needless to say I haven't put it back in.....