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I wonder how many 1x enthusiasts were sat around in the pub post ride a couple years ago slagging off front mechs and multiple chainrings. Dunno maybe they were, but sometimes it sounds suspiciously like reverse reasoning for a suddenly fashionable item.
I've tried 1x10 on my commuter (tried 1x8 and 1x9 in the past on commuters too) and I like it, best thing for me is going from top to bottom gear in <2secs, good for riding trails you don't know and suddenly seeing a wall of uphill trail appear in front of you. Rest of the positives are OK, still not likely to go 1x on the bikes that climb the biggest/steepest hills tho as I'd have to spaff on a sram xd cassette for my full current range and that's not happening. 1 shifter mech and cassette may cost similar to a full 2x/3x setup but shifters pretty much never need replacing and rings last longer than cassettes, spending so much on a (very) consumable part seems daft.
Yeah stuff works better nowadays but I don't reckon it lasts aslong tho, I've near enough worn out a shadow rear mech in under 12months and plenty of accounts on here suggest clutch versions are even worse, especially for jockey wheels. See also bottom swing front mechs, external BBs, etc.
Ditching the front mech allowing for better frame design is interesting, are many people actually doing it*? Or are bike co's keeping their options open for the unfit/uncool/boring old fuddy duddy multi-ring users?
this certainly [i]sounds[/i] accurate to me, top end stuff seems silly money and there's loads more uber spendy pimpery available than ever before, but dunno how much of that is my own rose tinted specs, not accounting for inflation, old git cynicism and inverse snobbery.Raphaisation
no but adding the 40t expander has presumably still cost you a wedge and added weight over an 11-36 used with a smaller ring...?30t front with the 13-40 is pretty perfect for what I ride....//...loosing the 11t did no harm what so ever.
*I know the no1 kitten killer the Bronson is normally sold as 1x but can't you still add a front mech if you wish? The codeine is also mechless but iirc O-O have form for frame glitches being turned into "features".
Spesh Epic World Cup is single ring only, Codeine is as you say. It's getting more popular for sure.
no but adding the 40t expander has presumably still cost you a wedge and added weight over an 11-36 used with a smaller ring...?
You assume he can fit smaller than a 30t NW on his current cranks.
*I know the no1 kitten killer the Bronson is normally sold as 1x but can't you still add a front mech if you wish?
You can on a bronson, it's the Newmad that won't take one.
njee20 - Member
...Mud encrusted mechs are probably about as efficient as a hub gear, all else being equal, which it isn't, so it's a moot point. How many rides are truly that filthy too?
I think if there's a prospect of your gear system taking out your spokes, you avoid that sort of ride. It becomes a self regulating process.
If you have a hub gear, it's just another mucky ride.
It would be interesting if there was a real world comparison of a hubgear against a derailleur in cruddy claggy conditions. I know the derailleur wins out in the relatively clean environment of the road, but how about in some proper muck.
cranks last a lot longer than ali sprockets if I was after custom gear range then [i]personally[/i] I'd be looking there before cassette bodges.You assume he can fit smaller than a 30t NW on his current cranks.
(poah may have already looked into this and decided his current setup was, overall, the best option, it was the "dropping 11 and adding 40 lost me nothing" that I was questioning)
it's something I'd maybe consider for the commuter as that sees a lot of mud mileage but TBH I just stick a new drivechain on in spring enjoy the crisp shifts and efficiency for 6 months and accept it'll get killed off over winter.If you have a hub gear, it's just another mucky ride.
Last ride I did with 'proper' mud that actually affected things (i.e. wheels jamming up) rather than making just nasty noises the only person with drivetrain issues was the chap with the belt drive alfine. Belt drive lifted out of the sprocket, little shifting arm on the alfine jammed up. That was a pretty unusual moment though.
Having had an alfine for some years on a commuter I would be hard pushed to take one mountain biking- on the rare occasions I took it off road the whole thing felt horrifically rear heavy. To confirm it, a mate had a skinny duster with alfine and when he singlespeeded (singlesped?) it the handling improved so much it felt like a different bike! I could just about see a gearbox hardtail though.
On the cassette front, it does feel like shimano should be able to make an 11-42/44 on the same manufacturing principle as a current gen xt. The industry have certainly missed a trick (or not, depending on how cynical you are) by not taking the chance to do move to the boooost hubs at the same time as widening conventional freehubs to roadie 11 width. I could see shimano doing it if they go to booooost
no but adding the 40t expander has presumably still cost you a wedge and added weight over an 11-36 used with a smaller ring...?
present, didn't cost me anything lol
The industry have certainly missed a trick (or not, depending on how cynical you are) by not taking the chance to do move to the boooost hubs at the same time as widening conventional freehubs to roadie 11 width. I could see shimano doing it if they go to booooost
Why? People are bemoaning having to buy an XD body for SRAM, how would having to buy a 1mm longer Shimano body be any less annoying?!
After that you still can't fit less than an 11t anyway, and as the 11-40 fits fine on a normal 10 speed body that seems an utterly pointless change...
11spd Shimano Mtb cassettes fitting on existing wheels is a godsend … why change the cassette body if you don't need to?
why change the cassette body if you don't need to?
It's a classic we always did it like this argument. Most decent modern hubs come with a XD option, a new bike or wheelset can come with it as standard. I can see why shimano will not produce one but they could get left behind. If the only reason we don't adopt 10t is that "We didn't make our freehub bodies to fit that x years ago" then it's a crap argument.
Thankfully in some ways I don't do as many muddy rides these days. Much as the UK riders bemoan the industry for designing things in sunny places you also have to remember that plenty of us live in those places and quite like the fact we can run bikes and gear that suit.
Why is there such a big debate over another bike part choice?
And what's wrong with upmarket, quality kit? Why the need to exploit everything downwards.
12yrs ago I had a spin on a top-end Intense with Shimano electric gears. The gears felt great but I didn't need them. For years LOTS of overpriced/expensive kit has been coming out. Are the nay-sayers saying there was kit 'in the old days' that wasn't crazy priced then?
I remember paying £70 for a pair of Kona shorts 10+yrs ago. They were ace- VERY robust and well made. Pity they stopped making them.
The 1x10 haters- I don't get it. With slacker and slacker bikes a granny ring aint going to help you past a certain steepness point anyway.
Its all good. Just enjoy it.
Lower gears dont help you go up hill
Is that meant to be taken seriously?
It's a classic we always did it like this argument. Most decent modern hubs come with a XD option, a new bike or wheelset can come with it as standard. I can see why shimano will not produce one but they could get left behind. If the only reason we don't adopt 10t is that "We didn't make our freehub bodies to fit that x years ago" then it's a crap argument.
Kelvin could have been commenting (like me) on swanny's suggestion the industry 'should' have adopted the road 11 speed freehub body - basically an M10 body, but 1mm longer. That achieves nothing whatsoever for MTBs except built in obsolescence - you still can't go smaller than an 11t, and you don't need the extra length for the 40, so it's pointless.
12yrs ago I had a spin on a top-end Intense with Shimano electric gears.
No you didn't, Shimano haven't been doing electronic gears that long. They did Airlines?
There's always been very expensive kit though, I agree, that's nothing new.
[i]It would be interesting if there was a real world comparison of a hubgear against a derailleur in cruddy claggy conditions.[/i]
anecdotally; in the 15 or so years I was riding round the Chilterns, not particularly grindy winter conditions, but thick cloying chalky mud, I don't think a derailleur failed once, certainly never had to replace one due to mud or winter damage.
I broke a rear mech once, an M970 one about 8 years ago, in the height of summer.
I'm not changing to a hub gear just in case that happens again.
So in summary:
- Some people like buying cool new stuff that helps them enjoy riding/bike ownership more
- Some people don't like buying new stuff and think the people who like new stuff shouldn't be allowed in "their" sport
Nobody is being forced to buy anything.
The bike industry shouldn't "have" to make cheap backwards compatible versions of their products - that's commercial suicide. They are businesses with R&D, wages, marketing and other bills to pay. That requires selling stuff. Early adopters will always pay a premium in any sector, and then cost trickles down with tech as market share and volume targets are achieved.
I like having 1x11, better chainring clearance, a wider main pivot and the resultant improved bearing life & stiffness, plus less confusion. I also then have less bar clutter.
Back when I was a teenager, I remember there was expensive gear too - USE bars, seatposts (that didn't clamp properly), the old Hope Ti Glide hubs, Shocktech carbon suspension forks with elastomers etc etc. The difference now is that the dearer parts all actually work properly.
Nobody is being forced to buy anything.
You think the adoption of new standards means I am not being forced to upgrade my straight steerer 26 " 9 speed bike?
One day it will be obsolete/ very difficult to get quality parts for it
In all honesty i cannot see me ever braking an Orange 5 frame or needing something "better" as I am getting older and less brave every year.
that's commercial suicide
Its really not but as you note everything they do is motivated by the desire to make money including that decision
Why always assume that people wanting new kit that works with their old kit is always about saving money?
Perhaps they like their current kit and would like to add "something" to it (like a clutch mech, or a lower cog) without throwing out something they like for something they do not see as “better”. My 11spd XTR needs far more tinkering with than my 9 or 8spd set ups to keep indexed. My 9spd shifters can be positioned far better than either my 10spd or 11spd ones. So, moving from one compete system to another one brings some benefits, and some downsides. It would be nice to able to pick and mix as you see fit, then have to take a whole groupset that isn't quite what you want. The best compromise for me would be 9spd with a clutch and a 11-40t spread… other people will have other preferences… and obviously some people are happy to swap out [b]everything[/b] for the latest assuming that it's also the greatest.
Kelvin could have been commenting (like me) on swanny's suggestion the industry 'should' have adopted the road 11 speed freehub body
I was. And it would be pointless, as you say.
My 9spd shifters can be positioned far better than either my 10spd or 11spd ones
That's surprising, there's far more adjustability and choice of clamps with the 10 or 11 speed ones.
My 11spd XTR needs far more tinkering with than my 9 or 8spd set ups to keep indexed
That also surprises me, although my SRAM 11 speed definitely needed more tweaking to keep it working properly!
Compatibility vs improvement is an interesting one. I don't mind the occasional standard change if it is of enough value. 20mm hubs for big forks yes please. Post mount brakes was alright, easier for manufacturers and users could swap brakes around/up/down size with some cheap adaptors, win win.
But a lot of stuff just appears to be to prevent you using older gear and forcing you to buy new stuff if you want the benefit. Clutch mech is 10spd only with different cable, now if the cable pull was to make narrower jumps easier to index then it's understandable I guess but roadies managed 10spd fine without a cable pull change and pretty sure with 11speed they've changed it again - that's no benefit for the rider, it's just forcing you to upgrade everything at once. Still no reason why they can't stick a clutch on 9spd mechs tho. Wider range cassettes are perfectly do-able on 10speed but shim/sram only seem to want to sell 11 speed. The freehub design has been around for a long time, ali versions don't play nice with cheaper cassettes and (to a lesser degree) it prevents <11T, whether XD is a worthy successor I dunno but my cynical side says XD2 will probably appear in a year or two anyway.
Boost, pressfit BBs, the bazillion different headset standards and marginally bigger wheels can **** off tho.
OMG! 🙄With slacker and slacker bikes a granny ring aint going to help you past a certain steepness point anyway.
Clutch mech is 10spd only with different cable,
If you didn't need one before why do you need one? The major upside of clutch mechs is in the 1x market.
Still no reason why they can't stick a clutch on 9spd mechs tho.
Why botherer? 9sp 3x people never shouted about wanting one why revisit a design that is sorted.
Wider range cassettes are perfectly do-able on 10speed but shim/sram only seem to want to sell 11 speed. The freehub design has been around for a long time, ali versions don't play nice with cheaper cassettes and (to a lesser degree) it prevents <11T, whether XD is a worthy successor I dunno but my cynical side says XD2 will probably appear in a year or two anyway.
The 10-42 offers a significant improvement on 11-40 for range, that is why it's offered. Why stick with a limited design of freehub when it's really easily changed.
Again at no point has this stopped a traditional 11-36 groupset being sold damm cheap.
Seems like people want the benefits of SRAM's R&D work but without supporting them financially. That's not really playing fair is it. They're a business, so of course selling product and putting cash in the till is a priority. Nothing wrong with that, and as has been stated on here multiple times, nobody has forced you to change to 1 x 11, XD bodies or anything else.
If you want 10-42, the improved functionality of the revised parallelogram and so on, buy GX/X1/X01/XX1. If not, bodge some bits as best as you can. But for the love of god, don't moan that you can't get the performance of the proper kit if you aren't prepared to spend the money buying it. SRAM don't owe you anything.
Seems reasonable!
yebbut, you'd think that by the time the 1x11 tech has trickled down 3 levels, the price probably wouldn't be between Shimano Pro Race level and Shimano enthusiast level.
and with some of the likely OEM full bike prices I've seen suggested, the price of GX to the likes of specialized, and the price an OEM groupset on Merlin could differ by a factor of 3 or even more.
So GX is like XT+, X1 is like XT++, X01 is like XTR, and XX1 like XTR+ (and anything in the SLX/Deore level is obsolete)
Hate to think how much XX1 electronic shifting will be.
😆SRAM's R&D work
Sram R&D Guy: how about copying Shimano Capreo cassettes/freehubs but add MOAR teeth and sell them to mountainbikers at extortionate prices?
Head of Sram: Yeah, that'll work. hold back on the 9T sprocket until we have our 12 speed group ready tho 😉
R&D Guy: Ah.. ENDURO?
A bit OT I guess but since it was mentioned: SRAM wireless electronic:
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/tour-of-flanders-tech-detailing-the-unusual/
No doubt it'll generate the same discussion.
Back on topic, I see this new groupset at SRAM making the most of their dominant position in the 1x market (while Shimano try and work out how to do their own wide range version without admitting that SRAM's XD solution is probably best) and creating groupsets to satisfy demand that's there. As has been said, they're not forcing people onto it and while I think £100+ is silly money to spend on a mtb cassette, I can see how the costs are justified from a business perspective.
Oh and I don't consider it engineering either. Well, maybe manufacturing engineering but that's the dirty, unglamourous side of engineering 😉
Some good examples of their R&D here:
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/sram-xx1-component-development-and-details-35654/
http://www.bikemag.com/blog/inside-look-bike-visits-the-sram-california-development-center/
So GX is like XT+, X1 is like XT++, X01 is like XTR, and XX1 like XTR+ (and anything in the SLX/Deore level is obsolete)
How's that different to 10 speed? Look at the price of XX compared to XTR. Cassettes are still >£300 at retail, mechs are £275 etc. The 11 speedness of these groups is a bit of a red herring.
Sram R&D Guy: how about copying Shimano Capreo cassettes/freehubs but add MOAR teeth and sell them to mountainbikers at extortionate prices?
Quite different really - Capreo used half a normal freehub body in effect, with only the smallest sprockets on their own body, an XD body is entirely different and the whole cassette needs to be pinned together structurally - as discussed a few pages back. It's nothing like an HG50 cassette, because on that the individual sprockets still have splines to support them.
Whether SRAM [i]should [/i]have copied Capreo more closely is something else altogether...
apologies for the use of humour in serious engineering thread
didn't say I needed one it was a general point, but there have been comments on here and elsewhere about people wanting themIf you didn't need one before why do you need one?
plenty of 1x-ers around who don't necessarily use 10 or 11 speeds, DHers, fatbikers, niche-ists, cxers (a 9 speed mtb clutch mech would work with a 10speed STI to cheaply enable 1x10 for cx) etc.The major upside of clutch mechs is in the 1x market.
Yes I know but shimano seem to think 11-40 is a valid range (see new XTR) but they won't do a 10spd version that a lot of people buying aftermarket expander kits seem to think is a good idea.The 10-42 offers a significant improvement on 11-40
Yeah but it's the "hey look we've invented(or copied) a useful new feature but you have to do an across the board upgrade to gain that little perk" that irks. [i]Slightly[/i] tweaking the cable pull or hub/steerer/dropout/headset/wheel size on each new generation of kit seems specifically aimed at making it difficult for people trying to keep using their current gear. Almost designed in obsolescence - and it does seem to coincide with "raphaisation", prior to that stuff [s]was[/s] seemed IIRC* fairly backwards/forwards compatible apart from when the occasional step changes were needed (I'm mainly thinking of shimano here).Again at no point has this stopped a traditional 11-36 groupset being sold damm cheap.
*obligatory rose tinted specs, cynicism, may not be true disclaimer.
apologies for the use of humour in serious engineering thread
It's not a million miles off though I suspect! Begs the question why Shimano haven't pursued it though, they must have their reasons.
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall during SRAMs R&D pitch for their X01 DH XD driver 7 speed cassette.
These guys are either complete genius or complete ****tards. I don't really know how to tell which.
Shimano made all their brake levers and more importantly (and expensively) STI units (eg combined shifter and brake lever) obsolete with V-brakes. That was 1995.
They also did the same to all the spangly square taper BBs we had around then too with Octalink and then with HT2.
Campag changed cable pull a few times over the last couple of decades. Shimano similar (with Dura Ace at least).
'Obsolescence' is nothing new. Raphaisation has just extended the high price end of the market IMO. I reckon that the lower end is better VFM than ever before.
Oh and I just remembered that the Shimano XT 8 speed cassette I had to buy while touring in 1995 cost me £50 which was full RRP. That made my eyes water but by my reckoning that's £88.88 in today's money. £115 doesn't seem SO bad in comparison.
Well, I didn't expect that suggestion to be so readily put down- I'm not suggesting I'd particularly want all of my freehubs to suddenly be 'old', just that if there was going to be a major move in hub widths it might make sense to take advantage of it and allow a bit more room to grow so if they, say, go to 12 speed down the line there's a bit of space to play with. A spacer would keep current drivetrains compatible and no reason why SRAM couldn't follow with an equivalent slightly wider XD.
Or perhaps it could happen this way- things get moved across to boost, then in a few years a little more cassette real estate is sought and all the hubs have to change again and everyone complains about yet another standard.
If there's going to a major PITA coming up with changing rear hub standards, I'd rather there was a bit of forward planning so we could perhaps put the next one back as far as possible.
Both mountain bikes still on 3x9 - oh, the shame! 😳
Even the road bike is, erm, (counts on fingers)....only 18 speed.
Can live with 3x9 on the Inbred. Would like to go 2x something on the FSR, but it's finding the funds and inclination to sort it out that is lacking....
I haven't really liked SRAM stuff when ever I've rode bikes with it (dunno why), but they do seem to be a bit more willing to try new things than Shimano.
Or perhaps it could happen this way- things get moved across to boost, then in a few years a little more cassette real estate is sought and all the hubs have to change again and everyone complains about yet another standard.
Not sure if two new standards is better than one or not. 11 speed road freehub bodies don't need new frames or anything, just a new body, much like XD. Seems a bit pointless to introduce a new standard as an entirely pre-emptive move though, any precedent for that? Be like us all going for 2" head tubes, and using reducers, until the 'inevitable' 2" steerers arrive 😕
There's no offset on the back of a SRAM 11 speed cassette, so they may be able to capitalise on that as Shimano have - and dish the largest sprocket toward the spokes. Which would give them one up on Shimano certainly. One would hope that 12 speed is a little while off anyway.
SRAM road 1x on the way. That'd go a treat with 12 speed 😉
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/sram-brings-1x-tech-to-the-road-sram-r1-43808/
I'm not particularly happy with many of the ways this could go! I'd quite like shimano to do an 11-42/44 that fits on a standard freehub for new xt, but if we're going to have lots of changes I just think it'd be nice to get them all out of the way.
Put it this way- I can see where they're coming from with boost, but it's a pain. Same with XD, same with 11 speed road (especially). If it were possible to try and get as much of the good bits from them into one thing, with as much gain as possible for the hassle, and then leave it for, say, 10 years, that would be quite nice.
If they could do something about cassettes scoring freehub bodies that would be nice too.
SRAM road 1x on the way. That'd go a treat with 12 speed
It could be interesting. I guess you could do a 12 speed 10-36 cassette with similar jumps to a 10 speed 11-28, then a 50t ring would give a comparable bottom gear to 39/28, and higher top gear than 53/11, or more realistically you'd go 48t and have an easier bottom gear and a very similar top gear. Even a 46t single could work - would give a low gear similar to 34/26.
If they could do something about cassettes scoring freehub bodies that would be nice too.
Like using XD bodies...? Changing freehub isn't really that much of a pain for most people. It's an expense admittedly, but not a regular one. I'm not too sure why so many folk stress about it.
Exactly and I can definitely see it being popular as electronic becomes more common since it cuts a load of cost out by removing almost half of the electronics and I always figured that the front mech probably needs quite a powerful (read expensive) servo given its position.