[Closed] "Some very impressive engineering to get the cassette down to £115."

That's good to know- I hadn't realised XD solved that. I would agree that changing freehub isn't too much of a problem- current plan unless shimano pulls their finger out is GX cassette and xt 11 speed, so I'll have to find out about XD sooner or later!

I was waiting on Hydraulic Shifting, seemed a perfect idea.
Established tech (Same fluid,tubes n tools)

Dont wan't batteries on me MTB

I don't really understand the 'I don't want batteries' thing - they've proven to be really reliable on road despite being used for several years now in filthy conditions and you'd only run out on a ride if you were utterly negligent to teh point of wanting the battery to run out.

That's good to know- I hadn't realised XD solved that

Yep, the cassette is one unit and threads on to the body, with a centre section that rotates independently. No lockring per se, and no splines on the freehub.

I was waiting on Hydraulic Shifting, seemed a perfect idea.

Acros do it if you want. Expensive, but light. I think electronic makes far more sense.

Shimano made all their brake levers and more importantly (and expensively) STI units (eg combined shifter and brake lever) obsolete with V-brakes. That was 1995.

I know change happens but 7,8,9(and 10 road) all played fairly well together, (apart from 8 [i]needed[/i] a longer freehub) how come stuff is suddenly speed specific and seemingly changes ever so slightly not through need but seemingly just to prevent backwards compatibility?

*supposedly they are, whether you can [i]feel[/i] the difference is probably more open to debate.
**unless you're cranks were 5 bolt 🙂 5 to 4 was a more nebulous change, 5 bolt had more ring options 4 bolt had....? about 5 grams weight saving? Still I guess that one has been a fairly long lived "standard"

only thing that puts me off batteries is the need to plug the bike in to charge up in the shed. and plugging a lappy in to reflash the firmware on a bike is just wrong.
oh and the price (right now).

I know DI2 is sposed to have a battery life of ages, but with 4 bikes in the shed, how long is "ages" when one or more might be sat there for well ages?

I know, I tried too - they were rubbish 😉 The travel adjusters came out some time after FWIW - they certainly weren't about in 1995/6 and they weren't cheap when they came out.

Anyway, the point is that standards change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes less clear, sometimes for the worse (ISIS?). It's nothing new and it's not really forcing people to change unless maybe you keep the same parts for 10+ years in which case there's still a pretty big market in second hand or NOS parts.

I know DI2 is sposed to have a battery life of ages, but with 4 bikes in the shed, how long is "ages" when one or more might be sat there for well ages?

Even if it's gone flat when you go to use it, in the time it takes you to have a piss and put your shoes on you'll have enough of a charge for about 200 miles.

Not aware of anyone having problems with current drain when you're not using it, but I guess it must happen.

Li-ion loses charge very slowly I thought. I've certainly noticed on things like tablets, etc that even if I don't use them for months, they're still well charged when I do.

and for all the luddite complaints I make, I'm looking forward to (significantly cheaper than DA/ultegra) leccy shifting. Bye bye mucky/twisty/rusty cables.

If you didn't need one before why do you need one?

What a [playground word removed]

Mountain bike kit moves on in leaps and bounds… people are just saying it would nice if it was easier to mix and match.

As soon as 9spd landed I was running my old Cannondale 1x9 with a DMR guide. A clutch would have been nice.

Now… 10spd has always needed a bit more fiddling than 9spd to work as well even/especially when 1x.
8spd was even more reliable.

Now… the good news is that Shimano 11spd is just as good as their 10spd, so no step backwards this time. It's all good.

A clutch mech with wider gauge would still be welcome though, not least for downhillers and winter use.

Oh… cassettes… top end ones from both S&S are works of art… predict Shimano will make great affordable 11spd ones well before SRAM though.

I race XC and enduro when I can, I ride up proper hills, I'm mechanically able and I can see the benefits but I probably don't fit into your tight socio-economic definition of what mountain bikers can be unless you have given up on that idea.

Well so do i but i am still running a 2x9 speed set up do I win something?

[quote=nemesis]I don't really understand the 'I don't want batteries' thing - they've proven to be really reliable on road despite being used for several years now in filthy conditions and you'd only run out on a ride if you were utterly negligent to teh point of wanting the battery to run out.

I don't understand the "I want to replace a simple cable with a battery, wires, and electronics" thing?

I'm with the Luddites here.

My rear mech, cable, and shifter cause me no problems at all. It is almost set and forget. Change the cable once every couple of years, job done.

What is the advantage in throwing out that simple mechanism that takes no further thought, for a complicated system that needs batteries and charging, with all the problems that brings?

[quote=nemesis]they've proven to be really reliable on road despite being used for several years now in filthy conditions

Filthy on the road is not nearly the same as filthy off road.

[quote=nemesis]you'd only run out on a ride if you were utterly negligent to teh point of wanting the battery to run out.

How does it do on day 5 of a 10 day off road tour, in the middle of nowhere?

[quote=njee20]Even if it's gone flat when you go to use it, in the time it takes you to have a piss and put your shoes on you'll have enough of a charge for about 200 miles

I don't believe that. 3 minutes charge is nothing. Also, what if you do that and it lasts 150 miles into a 200 mile run?

Why in the name of all that is good would we swap out a practically zero maintenance thing, with something that needs so much care and attention?

I'm going to jump in with something here.

I recently bought a Trek Superfly. I test rode it with SRAM 1 x 11 (but asked the bike shop to fit XT 2x10).

The gear range was too small, the jumps were too big, and the chain chattered in the silly 9 tooth small cog.

Moral of the story - the downsides of 1 x 11 are what you would expect the drawbacks of 1 x 11 to be. The laws of physics apply to bicycles still.

The sooner bike companies stop exploring irrelevant niches and stop trying to develop stupid market segments, the better.

Waderider - Member
I'm going to jump in with something here.

I recently bought a Trek Superfly. I test rode it with SRAM 1 x 11 (but asked the bike shop to fit XT 2x10).

The gear range was too small, the jumps were too big, and the chain chattered in the silly 9 tooth small cog.

Moral of the story - the downsides of 1 x 11 are what you would expect the drawbacks of 1 x 11 to be. The laws of physics apply to bicycles still.

The sooner bike companies stop exploring irrelevant niches and stop trying to develop stupid market segments, the better.

"I briefly tried something and it didn't suit me so everything about it and everyone who likes it is wrong"

I have never tried it but i objected to the opinion of someone on the internet so I wrote a reply dismissing them rather than debate the points they raised

The gear range was too small, the jumps were too big, and the chain chattered in the silly 9 tooth small cog.

You'd not lose much over most 2x10 gears in terms of range. Perhaps the front ring was too big (a 10T x anything 30+ is quite a big gear). But aside from that, the feeling of big jumps and more so clattering in the 10T sounds like bad set up to me. I love 1x11 (SRAM or Shimano) but SRAM particularly is very tricky to set up right, but once it is I've found it quieter than Shimano.

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Which gears were you missing? 32t leaves you with about the same as 2x 12-32. The clattering in the 9t may be an issue as there is no 9t.

Big jumps are more of an issue but personally I fend these days I'm not that likely to shift one at a time, one of the things people keep going on about with the new Shimano is the multi shift so most also go for bigger shift increments.

Moral of the story - the downsides of 1 x 11 are what you would expect the drawbacks of 1 x 11 to be. The laws of physics apply to bicycles still.

The sooner bike companies stop exploring irrelevant niches and stop trying to develop stupid market segments, the better.

and again based on the people I know running it very happily you are in the minority. Based on the number of 1x conversion my LBS does people want this and are happy to compromise with 10sp and expanders until 11sp hits their price point.

This ^^. We sell about 4/1 10spd + 11 spd to 20 speed. even 1x10 without expanders outsells 2x10 nowadays (probably I would need to check but its damn close)

Filthy on the road is not nearly the same as filthy off road

CX races being clean and dry? Water on the road less wet?

How does it do on day 5 of a 10 day off road tour, in the middle of nowhere?

Same way people in cars do long journeys?

A full charge is 1500 miles. Admittedly that's a doable amount in 10 days if you are keen, and incredibly fit, but if you really weren't going to see a plug socket in that time, couldn't you take an extra battery? They weigh next to nothing too, to counter that argument...

njee20 » Even if it's gone flat when you go to use it, in the time it takes you to have a piss and put your shoes on you'll have enough of a charge for about 200 miles

I don't believe that. 3 minutes charge is nothing. Also, what if you do that and it lasts 150 miles into a 200 mile run?

I do. But then I have it so it's easy for me to check
For example my phone will charge to 10% in 5 mins, why wouldn't this?. Are you really saying you couldn't wait another 5 minutes before a ride? The battery lasts that long that if its out of battery, it's because you haven't charged it. In the same way that if you don't lube your chain it won't run smoothly. Charging batteries is the least common bit of bike maintenance I do (twice in a year, only needed it once)

Why in the name of all that is good would we swap out a practically zero maintenance thing, with something that needs[s] so much care and attention?[/s] no maintenance. Save for a couple of hours a year charging

Ftfy

Hang on is electronic shifting now being forced on us all? Good job I'm in today otherwise I might miss the SRAM/Shimano service trucks coming round to refit my bikes at gun point.

I'm going to jump in with something here.
I recently bought a Trek Superfly. I test rode it with SRAM 1 x 11 (but asked the bike shop to fit XT 2x10).
The gear range was too small, the jumps were too big, and the chain chattered in the silly 9 tooth small cog.
Moral of the story - the downsides of 1 x 11 are what you would expect the drawbacks of 1 x 11 to be. The laws of physics apply to bicycles still.
The sooner bike companies stop exploring irrelevant niches and stop trying to develop stupid market segments, the better.

I'm going to jump in with something here.

I bought a Trek Superfly last year, it came with XT 2x10, I changed it to XX1. The range is plenty (I've done road group rides on it, and rarely use the 42), and the clutch mech works so effectively, even in the 10t, that I removed the chain stay protector.

Moral of the story is that it's personal and we're not all the same. 🙄

njee20 » Even if it's gone flat when you go to use it, in the time it takes you to have a piss and put your shoes on you'll have enough of a charge for about 200 miles

I don't believe that. 3 minutes charge is nothing. Also, what if you do that and it lasts 150 miles into a 200 mile run?

The current required is nothing. Particularly for the rear mech. Do you regularly go on 200 mile 'runs' with no preparation whatsoever? Do you regularly forget to take your bag? Find yourself riding with no helmet and your gloves on backwards? Di2 may not be for you.

tomhoward - Member
"Filthy on the road is not nearly the same as filthy off road"
CX races being clean and dry? Water on the road less wet?

Fair enough point at first glance, but CX races are very short and intense and then the bike gets maintenance.

As for battery powered changers, it's introducing just another bit of faff. Another thing you have to check.

Now if it was charged from its own little generator that would be an advance. There's room in the freehub in the vacant space under the larger cogs in the cassette.

But would it then be heavier than a cable setup?

Will they be Bluetooth changers to totally eliminate wires? Think of the fun on a ride if you paired your changer with your mates hub. 🙂

How does it do on day 5 of a 10 day off road tour, in the middle of nowhere?

What bothers (mildly, not losing sleep over it) me on longer, more 'remote' trips is smashing a mech, not what system actuates it. Di2 isn't for me simply for aesthetic reasons, I just like to see how something works mechanically and I'm not into 'gadgets' in general. Luddite, if you like.
I really can't come up with any good anti-Di2 argument aside from cost and as this whole thread shows re any components, that's up to the individual and what they value, nothing more.

Will they be Bluetooth changers to totally eliminate wires? Think of the fun on a ride if you paired your changer with your mates hub.

SRAM are doing wireless, can't say I'm fussed by that.

[quote=tomhoward]A full charge is 1500 miles. Admittedly that's a doable amount in 10 days if you are keen, and incredibly fit, but if you really weren't going to see a plug socket in that time, couldn't you take an extra battery? They weigh next to nothing too, to counter that argument.

Miles mean nothing. Is that road miles on the flat, or off road highland mountain biking miles?

How many hours does it run for? How many consecutive 12+ hrs a day cycling can it do, off road?

Why would I want the extra faff and multiple extra points of failure? No one has said any advantages of electronic shifting on a 1x off road multi day system.

I can see there are maybe advantages for road riding with a front mech, as the system can adjust the bodge that is a front mech so it runs correctly, and the bike gets tended to at the end of every day.

[quote=njee20]Do you regularly go on 200 mile 'runs' with no preparation whatsoever? Do you regularly forget to take your bag? Find yourself riding with no helmet and your gloves on backwards? Di2 may not be for you.

Not the point, and veiled insults don't suit you.

Why would I want the extra faff and multiple extra points of failure? No one has said any advantages of electronic shifting on a 1x off road multi day system.

I'm not big fan of adding complexity to bikes but I don't think this argument stacks up. The electronic shifter eliminates many moving parts and possible failure modes, while adding a few different ones. I'd be interested to see a proper failure modes analysis but I'd be surprised if electronic systems had a higher failure rate.

STWers have never reported any issues with dirt ingress, and have never had to discuss the pro/cons between full length outers and open outers, nor ever had a SRAM vs Shimano fanboi shifter feel argument 😉

Wireless is probably not my preference, although thinking about it, bikes with random suspension arrangements could benefit more than UCI regulation road bikes.

maintenance - wazz it with WD40 after a ride and wipe clean. Job done.

1500 road miles? At a guess 85 hours? So between 6 and 10 days depending on the length of your days. Even longer if using 1x as the rear mech uses les juice.

Reports of failure of the current gen stuff are few and far between, failures from muck/water ingress are non existent that I've heard

So again is electronic shifting being forced on multi day tourers?

85 hours seems reasonable as a conservative estimate, Yep, and longer without a front mech.

Must say I agree about the limited benefit on single ring setups presently, but I imagine things will evolve and weights will fall. Also never heard of a component dying from getting wet.

Agree with Mike too, it's never been marketed specifically at multi day tourers, but I think that's naysayers trying to find a flaw. I'll be surprised if even 1% of folk on here regularly do 50 hour + 'rides' without access to a plug socket.

So again is electronic shifting being forced on multi day tourers?

Not the way I read it, it's just another option. Given that you can still get 7 speed cassettes which were probably "state of the art" thirty years ago it will be a long time before there are no mechanical gear systems.

[quote=njee20]never heard of a component dying from getting wet.

Lights / batteries screw up all the time due to wet / corrosion.

[quote=mikewsmith]So again is electronic shifting being forced on multi day tourers?

Not at the moment, it is only just being rolled out.

I have still to hear of any proper benefits to the system though, especially on 1x.

Plugging in my phone / lights / batteries and remembering / managing chargers annoys me enough, having to do that with my bike in order to replace a perfectly good functioning mechanical system that needs 5 minutes maintenance every year had better bring some serious long term benefits!

[quote=tomhoward]1500 road miles? At a guess 85 hours? So between 6 and 10 days depending on the length of your days.

With a new battery, at full charge. Battery capacity fades with age and use. Use a 1 year old battery for a day, forget / not able to charge it, leave it on draining it = ruined second day.

So the idea that a SRAM 11sp cassette means you can't so multi day yours isn't really an issue then?

Like most of this it's more that something new and people want to be grumpy welcome to STW

Use a 1 year old battery for a day, forget / not able to charge it, leave it on draining it = ruined second day.

Back to the 11-spd wide ratios though, 2x11 .. I can see good things in that for off-road touring. I've done ok for multi-day stuff on 1x6 with some SS sprockets stacked up, or a 9spd triple set up on other rides, so either way I'm not too fussed.

I ride my bike exclusively in environments full of highly explosive petrol vapour and I can't use any electronic components. How will Di2 work for me?

I live in the hills, surviving off the land and have an ethical dislike for anything electronic. How will I charge my Di2?

I ride my bike exclusively in environments full of highly explosive petrol vapour and I can't use any electronic components. How will Di2 work for me?

Fear not, Shimano are launching ATEX Zone 0 rated Di2 next year so you'll be fine.

Plus, if someone lets off an EMP, you're knackered.

I live in the hills, surviving off the land and have an ethical dislike for anything electronic. How will I charge my Di2?

Invents Di2
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Ends all long distance cycling tours

Lights / batteries screw up all the time due to wet / corrosion.

Sorry, I meant a Di2 component - ie a mech or shifter. Aware the components/accessories in general can die.

leave it on draining it

You can't "leave it on". Unless you somehow set up an intricate system of levers and pulleys to continually shift gear. Seems a bit far fetched purely to prove a point.

11-44 10 speed anyone?

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