[Closed] "Some very impressive engineering to get the cassette down to £115."

I'm still on a 9 speed triple and have never tried 11 speed 😉

scotroutes - Member

I'm still struggling to work out what's so bad about a front mech that folk actually struggle to set one up.

I bloomin hate it to be fair. It's the bit where you tighten up the bolt and it moves. You can hear the mech laughing.

For me, the benefit's been mostly about chain security- narrow/wide with no chain device at all has been a lot more reliable than dual ring with a chain device (and on the very rare occasions it's fallen off, it can't jam). And better mud manners is good too.

But mostly, I just feel like it takes away things I didn't need. Nothing wrong with wanting a wider range of gears but I was really surprised how little difference it makes.

But I'm still on 1x10, I was thinking my next setup would be 1x11 but the expander rings are so cheap now, probably not.

I've already debunked that one

individual sprockets don't even need to be pinned/riveted.

it all turns to a grey skein of aluminium oxide anyway.

sram stuff seems to do it quicker.

[quote=mtbel ]STFU

Thanks for that thought provoking contribution

individual sprockets don't even need to be pinned/riveted.

I think that was what I said by the pins in a HG41 being non-structural wasn't it? As opposed to this SRAM one which is totally different.

it was sound advice. as your next piece of waffle proved. 😉

I waiting for some good pics of people's home made much cheaper 10-42 cassette.

Yes, 'impressive engineering' 😉

[img] [/img]

How is not having a clutch holding you back?

It isn't. I'm implying I'm not really being held back at all by anything other than my legs and lungs.

But it would be nice to get a clutched rear mech without having to change everything else (or bodge it). I'm sure when they have enough people on 11 speed they will bring out some great new tech but only for 11 speed, forcing an upgrade again.

Doesn't bother me what other people spend on their bikes though. And if I were racing I'd probably want any advantage I could get.

But it would be nice to get a clutched rear mech without having to change everything else (or bodge it). I'm sure when they have enough people on 11 speed they will bring out some great new tech but only for 11 speed, forcing an upgrade again.

Clutch mech is a genuinely worthwhile upgrade, though- better chain retention, much less noise. Same with bigger cassettes- things that could have been rolled down to 9 speed, but never will be, because SRAM and Shimano want you to replace your entire drivetrain. (and likewise 11-42 cassettes for 10-speed)

[quote=mcnik]
Weight saving and increased ground clearance is a bonus too.

That's why losing the front mech is a big deal.

The setup is the least of the issues.

They add weight.

Add complexity.

More stuff on handlebars.

Chain drop / can't use NW chainrings.

Expensive to replace chainrings.

Dangerous (big ring).

Clog with mud / hard to clean.

98% of the time unneeded, even with a 9 speed 11-32.

Ugly as sin.

[quote=chestrockwell]If you can't set up and maintain a front mech then it's time to give up. The demonisation of them to justify fashion is hilarious.

Easy mate.

If you think 1x is fashion, that is your prerogative. I think my list gives some good reasons. Of course 3x or 2x is not unridable, and 1x is not going to suddenly make you better. It just comes down to personal preference.

I am sticking on 10 speed at the moment, as I agree that the current prices for 11x are quite steep, 10 speed offers good VFM ATM.

BTW, all this same howling and complaining happened when they invented the derailleur, then they went from 5 speed to6, from 6 speed to 7, from 7 to 8, from... you get the point.

mcnik - Member
...BTW, all this same howling and complaining happened when they invented the derailleur, then they went from 5 speed to6, from 6 speed to 7, from 7 to 8, from... you get the point.

Actually it started when some degenerate invented the freewheel, so 1890s.... 🙂

I have decided today I want 1x11, not for the bling, not for the kudos, or the fact that it will make be faster, simply for the following

I am sick of convincing myself if I shift up or down on the front, I am going to find the ratio I need to counter my unfitness.

With 1x11 I will simply know, I am unfit and need to ride harder.

I'd buy a 9spd clutch rear mech.

And also a 10spd 11-40t cassette.

Not for the same bike though!

They'd sell loads of both… but would then sell less of all the other stuff…

So to get this straight you don't feel forced to upgrade, but you think that you might be based on stuff that hasn't forced you to upgrade. Hope I'm clear on that, those bastards in the bike industry have a lot to answer for.

No, he's saying that if a genuine advancement is made for one drivetrain component, then you'll have to replace everything to be able to use it, as that has been the pattern for decades now. He used clutch rear mechs as a recent example.

Nothing wrong with that. They are businesses after all. Can't imagine there's a lot of money in backwards comparability.

Either upgrade to newer systems or don't - I don't care which. But stop expecting companies to put the desires of a few who want latest tech at old tech prices and compatibilities above pushing forward.

No-one has a gun to your head.

GX will probably come in at £250 for mech, shifter and cassette on the direct sites before long. That's a bloody bargain.

I'd rather have an industry that innovates and develops desirable products that then trickle down than get bogged down into making cheaper and cheaper parts for spendthrift owners stuck in a timewarp.

Since going 90% roAdie much of this stuff passes me by, it is quite nice not to have a continual stream of potential engineering improvements instead havein legs that ache but a wallet thats intact.

"Pushing forward" and "compatibility" are sometimes mutually exclusive for good reason… but when that is artificial, people are rightly annoyed.

And it's not just about being "spendthrift", I have 11spd XTR on my main bike, but as I said, I'd love a 9spd clutch rear mech, and would buy one in a heartbeat, even for a premium. A 1x9 system would have real world advantages well beyond money… it would shift more consistently on a full suss bike with awkward cable routing for a start, and would be less fussy for winter downhill runs.

andyrm - Member
...GX will probably come in at £250 for mech, shifter and cassette on the direct sites before long. That's a bloody bargain...

Just imagine if Shimano made a lightweight XT version - the current Alfines are commuter hubs slightly better sealed, so not directly comparable to the higher group sets.

Quirrel - Member
...I am sick of convincing myself if I shift up or down on the front, I am going to find the ratio I need to counter my unfitness.

I have found the same when I use gears instead of singlespeed. I think it's just that we cyclists have a habit of cycling as hard as we can, so even using an easy ratio, we still rag ourselves out on a climb. You may be fitter than you think. 🙂

An Alfine 8 which weighs loads, and is less efficient than a chain drive system, whilst having a narrower range and bigger jumps than the SRAM cassette folk are frothing about...? Where do I sign up!?

A hub gear is the perfect solution for mechanically inept non-racers who don't ride up proper hills.

Which, coincidentally, seems cover most of those currently enamoured by 1*.
🙂

If Shimano painted it orange, renamed it BastidGlide, only made it compatable with sky blue frames and tripled the price, it would be much more popular.

Only if they made it work like a 1x11, weight the same, stop putting the weight in the back wheel and the rest would they stand a chance.

I race XC and enduro when I can, I ride up proper hills, I'm mechanically able and I can see the benefits but I probably don't fit into your tight socio-economic definition of what mountain bikers can be unless you have given up on that idea.

Has the big bad SRAM monster come round and threatened you with a stick to upgrade yet?

I have nothing against 1*.
No good for me, but if you're happy with the compromises, fine.

I race XC and enduro when I can, I ride up proper hills

I probably don't fit into your tight socio-economic definition of what mountain bikers can be

Just don't get annoyed when I point out that your willingness to buy overpriced toss has a negative outcome for others.

http://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-slx-2-x-10-transmission-groupset-75067.html £210
http://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-deore-m610-triple-transmission-groupset-70201.html £160

What is the detrimental effect? I reckon these groupsets are a great price if you want basic stuff that works at a good price. Not sure how an 11sp group can make this stuff more expensive or not available.

Can you explain why it's overpriced toss anyway?

Shan't.
😀

Seriously, you're obviously not bothering to read replies properly and you seem a bit angry, so repeating myself is pointless.

aracer - Member

I'm still on a 9 speed triple and have never tried 11 speed

Nope I've read all of them I think, including your back in the good old days when bikes cost thrupence and it was sunny all the time. Not angry just pointing out that you can currently get some amazing value components that seem to be exactly what you want but you are fixated on a groupset you will never buy and that you think it's a cynical ploy to stop you riding bikes 😉

Compared to 10 years ago cheap kit is cheaper & better. There is also a choice for lots of other people, it there was no innovation at the XTR/XX level then SLX clutch mechs wouldn't exist. SRAM doing XX1 left others with cheap superstar NW chain rings so whats not to like.

Have just put a new 2x10 setup on the HT, Shimano naturally.
It was £145 new from Ribble, Deore everything and 26/38 cranks with an 11-36 cassette....a ratio for every situation, I'm awash with gears.
When decent components are this cheap it'll be a long time before I pay £100+ for a solitary cassette....and I scoff at the £250 SRAM cassette, I could've bought a new SLX groupset for that money!

I appreciate what SRAM are trying to do with this, but I really don't like SRAM transmission (or brakes). It would put me off a bike if it had SRAM tranny and stoppers.

I'm all for tech advancements in cycling but don't have the budget to be a early adopter.
The thing with the latest SRAM cassette is that its supposed to be a budget offering but it is still quite premium priced.

In simple terms you have 11x stamped steel rings held together with basic steel pins no exotic materials or construction going on, when for roughly £30 more you could have a XTR 11speed cassette made from Titanium, steel and carbonfibre, lighter weight and most likely will fit your existing wheels with no extra mods.
Only downside is slightly less overall range.

I have got both SRAM and Shimano drivetrains on both my bikes and like both equally so no fanboism going on.

I bought my first full sus in 04,as I recall at that point spec and giant were knocking out a Base spec full sus for 1k to 1500.

I bought a Giant Trance 4 in 2007 for £900 which was full RRP. The same bike today is £1300

Well inflation alone takes you up to £1115 for that price in todays money
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/flash/default.aspx
Is the modern model better specced? Lighter, stronger, more travel that the 8 year old version?

I run a 13-40 XT (expander with 11t removed) - never use the 11t so can't imagine using a 10t. I'll wait for the 11 speed shimano to trickle down to XT before I think about buying.

I run a 13-40 XT (expander with 11t removed) - never use the 11t so can't imagine using a 10t. I'll wait for the 11 speed shimano to trickle down to XT before I think about buying.

You realise you've created a cassette with less range than the 11-36 you had before?

I run a 13-40 XT (expander with 11t removed) - never use the 11t so can't imagine using a 10t. I'll wait for the 11 speed shimano to trickle down to XT before I think about buying.

In simple terms you have 11x stamped steel rings held together with basic steel pins no exotic materials or construction going on, when for roughly £30 more you could have a XTR 11speed cassette made from Titanium, steel and carbonfibre, lighter weight and most likely will fit your existing wheels with no extra mods.

Turn that around. XTR retails for £190 (we don't know what price GX will actually be available for, so no point looking at cheapest XTR prices), so it's 65% more expensive than GX whilst weighing only 20% less. XTR has a far narrower range, and uses ti sprockets, which are softer and will wear quicker.

If you go to X1, it weighs less than XTR, whilst still being more durable, and only slightly more expensive.

You realise you've created a cassette with less range than the 11-36 you had before

you realise if you read the post correctly you'd see I wasn't using the whole range I had so loosing the 11t did no harm what so ever.

The point of a 10t cog is the same as with a 40t, to increase the range. The actual gearing is as always determined by the front ring

30t front with the 13-40 is pretty perfect for what I ride. if I went up to a 32t I'd loose the 30-40 ratio and use the harder gears even less. my current set up is good for the terrain I cycle on and a lot cheaper to replace items than any current 11sp set up.

Poah

a 26t granny ring with a 11-34 cassette would have given you EXACTLY the same range as your 30T 13-40 set up but lots lighter a quarter of the price and far less faff/waste.

I'd buy a 9spd clutch rear mech.

And also a 10spd 11-40t cassette.

Not for the same bike though!

They'd sell loads of both… but would then sell less of all the other stuff…

Hypnotoad, What 8 speed shifter do you use?

30t front with the 13-40 is pretty perfect for what I ride. if I went up to a 32t I'd loose the 30-40 ratio and use the harder gears even less. my current set up is good for the terrain I cycle on and a lot cheaper to replace items than any current 11sp set up.

By all means continue using the setup if you like it, I was just pointing out that saying that you "can't imagine using a 10t" doesn't make much sense as it doesn't say anything about the actual gearing.

Sram X5 8 speed trigger shifter, it's pretty old and I don't think you can get them new anymore, but x5 9speed shifters will work also, along with a 9sp cassette.

EDIT: Mine looks like this, but 8 speed:

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/products/sram-x5-9-speed-trigger-shifters

njee20 - Member
An Alfine 8 which weighs loads, and is less efficient than a chain drive system, whilst having a narrower range and bigger jumps than the SRAM cassette folk are frothing about...? Where do I sign up!?

I can see why it wouldn't appeal, but it's a way nicer piece of engineering than any derailleur, and lasts much longer. 🙂

As for efficiency, I can't imagine mud encrusted derailleurs are particularly efficient, and what's the point in a gear system you can't drag through the clag.

I don't get why people need even closer ratios (unless they're racing). Surely this means you're operating your shifters almost all the time on varied terrain?.

Meh, the jumps on the SRAM cassettes are pretty big, the must be huge on Alfine. I agree that close ratio blocks aren't much use, but neither is huge jumps.

Mud encrusted mechs are probably about as efficient as a hub gear, all else being equal, which it isn't, so it's a moot point. How many rides are truly that filthy too?