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[quote=andytherocketeer ]Although RRP and actual retail may differ.
Is a big issue - plenty on here comparing RRP of this to what CRC sell XT for (having presumably not checked what an X1 cassette, RRP £240 sells for on CRC). CBA checking the prices, but I suspect that may also apply to your suggestion that it's pitched between XT and XTR pricewise.
[quote=unovolo ]Well i'll split the difference and buy the Praxis works cassette that is due out which goes up to 40t, not bothered about having a 10t top cog for the limited times it would get used
You seem to be missing the point that the 10T allows you to use a smaller chainring (and then not miss the 9T you'd rarely use) for a lower bottom gear.
Out of interest I went back into old receipts. I paid £50 for a 9 speed XT cassette from CRC in 2010, today I could get an XT 10 speed for under £30. Hardly evidence of increases pricing out the ordinary cyclist.
margins aren't massive
Compared with what?
but I suspect that may also apply to your suggestion that it's pitched between XT and XTR pricewise.
GX is listed as €534 2x10 / €698 2x11 RRP
X1 (think that's the next level up?) is €765 RRP / €590 retail
XT is €320 retail (can't find RRP, but thought it was about €420)
SLX isn't even listed any more at either of the 2 stores I use (probably not worth the bother given XT price?)
edit: I lie - SLX full groupset is sold at the price of a SRAM x11 cassette. Retail price, not RRP.
so at those prices, a tiny bit more takes you up one level. yes I expect CRC/Bike24/Wiggle etc. prices to be less, but half the price? I doubt XT retail is half RRP.
7hz - Member
It's called capitalism.
I call it "increasing the price of stuff because we can get away with it and we've run out of ideas to make money out of consumers" - maybe the same thing, I know how I would run a shop.
jmatlock - Member
This place seems to want to belittle people who don't bodge stuff and buy the cheapest possible solution.
Not at all, I'm just struggling to see the value in this product, when it could easily be made more cheaply.
And to aspire to nice stuff and appriciate it.
This notion does give me a very bad taste.
I'm all for appreciating nice things, if you can afford it, buy it.
But being able to afford nice things being a significant driver for career, work etc. Keeping up with the jones' and all that rubbish. Nah, definitely not for me.
Experiences/family/friends/memories/riding >>>>>>>>>> than stuff
Most people i know who strive for nice stuff are generally stuck in a rut where they spend their time working to buy stuff, to then have no time to really do anything else other than work and buy stuff.
Yea the cassette may be £100+ and near enough 400g, but you do get a range where 99% of people can drop the weight and the cost of front mech/shifter/multiple rings. I want front mechs to be obsolete, compromises have to be made in frame design to accommodate them, i'm sure this group will aid in making that happen.
As others have stated, im sure this cassette will be readily available for £80, it'll last 12-18 months with a few chain changes.
Plus chains/cassettes are unexciting, they do a really important job though, though may be boring, but in comparison to a titanium railed saddle, or those £20 lockon grips that last 6 months, they still seem reasonable VFM to me.
[quote=Rusty Spanner]the emergence of a more affluent consumer has given the manufacturers an opportunity to take a cynical approach to profit making.
That is such a naive POV. You think anyone in any industry is not in it for profit? For as much profit as they can get?
You think it is all just a conspiracy. Are tin foil hats also more expensive these days? And they are a different standard as well.
[quote=Rusty Spanner]I think that this, combined with the forced introduction of kitten-killers has made people question their relationship with the industry and media.
No, it has made YOU navel-gaze and develop a they-are-out-to-get-me view of the world. Combined with your petty classisim and jealousy, it's an unattractive combination.
[quote=cynic-al]I call it "increasing the price of stuff because we can get away with it and we've run out of ideas to make money out of consumers" - maybe the same thing, I know how I would run a shop.
Move to a nice cosy communist country then, where I am sure you can get a new chain for a good price, once you have made an application in triplicate for it and waited 5 years in line.
The whole trite "manufacturers are out to get us" bull that is trotted out in these forums with monotonous regularity is just veiled fear of change. Grow up, accept things change, and get on with it!
7hz - Member[i]Rusty Spanner » the emergence of a more affluent consumer has given the manufacturers an opportunity to take a cynical approach to profit making.[/i]
That is such a naive POV. You think anyone in any industry is not in it for profit? For as much profit as they can get?
In the vast majority of cases.
Do you enjoy paying over the odds for overpriced goods?
I know it reassures some people.
No, it has made YOU navel-gaze and develop a they-are-out-to-get-me view of the world. Combined with your petty classisim and jealousy, it's an unattractive combination.
I said in my post that the rise in costs was inevitable with the changing demographic:
So, no one is out to get me - don't be such a drama queen.
🙂
And I have no interest in where people are from, just where they're at.
I'm not stupid enough to believe that the circumstances of someone's birth quantifies their worth.
I put family/friends/experiences way before stuff of course.
But I have always been smart with my money, I live within my means. So rather than waste it on tat and junk, I save it up and buy nice stuff. Compared to many on here my bike isn't in anyway special. But it's my pride and joy, exactly how I want to it to be.
For me the ownership and the tinkering and the swapping is part of the experience of cycling. New shiny stuff fascinates me, any advances in tech are a good thing for the industry.
Grow up, accept things change, and get on with it!
:yawn:
Mince tax ain't it, these massive cassettes are still aimed at all the fannies not strong enough to 1x10...
Aye, but it's only 8speed that's mince tax free 😉
£6.99
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Stronger and lighter too
I'm about to spend £3k on my new bike. I'm no spring chick and likely this will be my last ever full bike purchase.
There's not a chance of it leaving the shop with any derivative of SRAMs 1x11.
If it were sold to compete with Shimano, as opposed to being marketed at folk, with all this elitist bullshit, about feats of engineering and with as much though to compatibility as our cat is capable of, then maybe I'd consider it.
Meantime I'll happily use both thumbs and burn a nano calorie or two, to pedal me overweight, antiquated drive train up the hill.
I'd sooner buy a Shimano chain and cassette every few months and stick a tank of fuel in the van to go somewhere on the difference thanks.
I'm not old enough for 8 speed...9 speed will be clamped down on at teh ENDURO racing soon.
I'm just struggling to see the value in this product, when it could easily be made more cheaply.
Easily how? You may be right, I'm genuinely curious to know how you would propose they do it more cheaply?
FFS Doug.
Exactly the same way shimano manages to make 8 separate sprockets for an hg41. pin a chunk of them together, add a lock ring and punt them out at an rrp of £14.99
Thank you Gary
Laughing at the whole "shimano is soooo limited" garbage. It's an extra gear FFS, it's not going to make any of us faster (unless there are elite XC racers amongst us). If you want it, and have the money to throw at it, fair enough but dressing it up as anything other than plain old shiney-want is nonsense.
EDIT; £100 FOR A ****ING CHAINRING!!!!!! IN WHOSE WORLD IS THAT OK?!?!?! 😉
Yeah but 11!!! ELEVEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It goes to eleven FFS! It's cutting edge, 11, count 'em, eleven, it's the perfect number!
How many times can you read eleven before it loses all meaning, eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven eleven!!11!
As others have stated, im sure this cassette will be readily available for £80
hope that's true.
the 3 higher level 11sp SRAM cassettes are all over €200 retail here. indeed those 3 levels are so close in pricethey could probably reduce the range to a €200+ pro race bling model, and a €99 or £80 punter model.
XTR just pops in with a euro change from a €200 note.
I guess Shimano a re a bit on the back foot, and SRAM can cash in on fashion right now. It'll reverse when Shimano cashes in on 13sp cassette patents.
You seem to be missing the point that the 10T allows you to use a smaller chainring (and then not miss the 9T you'd rarely use) for a lower bottom gear.
Not really as I get by alright at the moment with 30t at the front and 36t at the back so realistically I dont even need the bigger range that the Praxis cassette would give never mind the Sram one.
The 11t Cog only ever gets rare use when doing on road bits so a 10t or smaller would only ever get the same amount of use IMO.
For me it would be a awful lot of money to spend for very limited use.
Not as easy to make it reasonably light and cheap with that SRAM freehub design. Needs a lot of suport for the middle section sprockets, something Shimano get from having a simple splined freehub so they only need 3 or 4 pins to hold the whole cassette together. I guess SRAM could use a std freehub and do it the Shimano way but everyone would complain that it weighed 600g.Exactly the same way shimano manages to make 8 separate sprockets for an hg41. pin a chunk of them together, add a lock ring and punt them out at an rrp of £14.99
Exactly the same way shimano manages to make 8 separate sprockets for an hg41. pin a chunk of them together, add a lock ring and punt them out at an rrp of £14.99
I was hoping for some more detailed analysis of production methods than a comparison with something that's been made for the last 20 years or so.
I'm fairly sure the initial fixed costs for the HG41 cassette are paid for by now, if not the accountants should probably be sacked.
Given its you, it's probably unlikely we'll come to any sort of agreement here 😆
Looking at the cassette alone is missing the point. Once you start thinking of it as replacing a cassette, two rings, a front mech, a shifter and a cable it starts to look reasonable.
I don't get the 'the bike manufacturers are taking the pee pee' line of thought. All they are doing is offering choice. You can still buy a great mountain bike for 700 quid which will do you for years and you can ride most trails on.
As for this bit of kit, it'll be down to 70 quid or so before you know it, which puts it smack in the 'xt and expander cog' price range. That said I' still trying to work out the benefits of a 10 tooth at the back, unless you are charging down a fire road.
I'm still struggling to work out what's so bad about a front mech that folk actually struggle to set one up.
Pretty fair point for a cyclepath cruiser like you druid.
ac282 - Member
Looking at the cassette alone is missing the point. Once you start thinking of it as replacing a cassette, two rings, a front mech, a shifter and a cable it starts to look reasonable.
Yeah just ignore the fact its one sprocket more than those 10 speed cassettes at a quarter of the price.
scotroutes - MemberI'm still struggling to work out what's so bad about a front mech that folk actually struggle to set one up.
i'm at my wits end with the *ing basd front mech on my wife's road bike.
*the outer cage is parallel with the outer chainring, there's a 2mm gap over the top.
*the lower limit is set so that the cage is 1/4 turn away from 'tickling' when the chain is on the smallest chainring and biggest sprocket.
*it's a new cable, in new outer, it's all clean and greased up.
*it's a new sti, which feels fine.
*the front mech moves easily enough, and moves so much that the chain is fully smooshed up against the ramps and pins on the next chainring
but it just won't ****ing shift up.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111.
😆
Pay the idiot tax and go 11-speed then 😆
[quote=mtbel ]FFS Doug.
Exactly the same way shimano manages to make 8 separate sprockets for an hg41. pin a chunk of them together, add a lock ring and punt them out at an rrp of £14.99
I've already debunked that one - an hg41 isn't pinned together in anything like the same way as this (each sprocket works by itself, pins are non-structural). XT is a fair comparison.
*pulls pin from hand grenade*
It's really not expensive. You can spend more on a pair of tyres, or pedals, or bars, or (rigid) seat posts.
*tosses and retreats*
Looks more like SLX to me. If it comes in at well under a hundred quid, doesn't fall apart like most SRAM stuff and works with 11 speed xt, I might be interested in a few years.
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Losing the front mech allows wider pivot positioning, giving better stiffness, improved pivot bearing wear and better mud clearance. Plus in real life, hard use in a race (where products are tested and developed), only having one shifter is one less thing to think about in that split second where you need a big gear change.
Weight saving and increased ground clearance is a bonus too.
That's why losing the front mech is a big deal.
[quote=scotroutes]I'm still struggling to work out what's so bad about a front mech that folk actually struggle to set one up.
The setup is the least of the issues.
They add weight.
Add complexity.
More stuff on handlebars.
Chain drop / can't use NW chainrings.
Expensive to replace chainrings.
Dangerous (big ring).
Clog with mud / hard to clean.
98% of the time unneeded, even with a 9 speed 11-32.
Ugly as sin.
There is a lot to be said for simplicity IMHO, and the front mech is the 1st thing in the firing line.
Jeez. Been riding with 3 up front for 20 odd years and didn't realise I was being held back so much.
Mind I'm still pissed they held back on a 9 speed clutch rear mech to try and squeeze us up to 10speed. No doubt they will find some similar trick to get everyone onto 11 at some point.
I'll just hang at the back on yesterdays technology, what I never had I won't miss.
Nico Lau, the EWS beast runs a front mech, but then he doesn't have to maintain his bike and probably doesn't clean his own bike either.
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Hateful things front mechs.
Losing the front mech allows wider pivot positioning, giving better stiffness, improved pivot bearing wear and better mud clearance. Plus in real life, hard use in a race (where products are tested and developed), only having one shifter is one less thing to think about in that split second where you need a big gear change.Weight saving and increased ground clearance is a bonus too.
That's why losing the front mech is a big deal.
The setup is the least of the issues.They add weight.
Add complexity.
More stuff on handlebars.
Chain drop / can't use NW chainrings.
Expensive to replace chainrings.
Dangerous (big ring).
Clog with mud / hard to clean.
98% of the time unneeded, even with a 9 speed 11-32.
Ugly as sin.
What a load of old shit.
If you want to spend loads on the top gear to drop a few grams then fine, it's the usual MTB rule of diminishing returns but to spend more on a heavier system with less range is Sram laughing at the fashion victims. It will be lapped up.
If you can't set up and maintain a front mech then it's time to give up. The demonisation of them to justify fashion is hilarious.
[quote=tpbiker ]That said I' still trying to work out the benefits of a 10 tooth at the back, unless you are charging down a fire road.
I mentioned earlier - it means you can use a smaller chainring so giving a lower bottom gear. It's all about the gear range on the cassette, not the absolute values.
Of course it depends where you ride - IME I rarely use the granny ring on a triple at trail centres, so if that's the sort of thing you do then no need for low bottom gears. Round here I'd do quite a bit of walking (or avoid some routes) if my bottom gear was 30/36.
mcnik - Member
...There is a lot to be said for simplicity IMHO, and the front mech is the 1st thing in the firing line.
Jolly good sentiment, and the next logical step is to get rid of that tangled mess at the rear too.
Not much better than a simple clean straight chainline. Add singlespeed cog or hubgear to taste, and stir well. 🙂
peakyblinder - Member
Jeez. Been riding with 3 up front for 20 odd years and didn't realise I was being held back so much.
Mind I'm still pissed they held back on a 9 speed clutch rear mech to try and squeeze us up to 10speed. No doubt they will find some similar trick to get everyone onto 11 at some point.
How is not having a clutch holding you back?
I love both my 1x setups but would prefer the extra range on offer. Yes it's new and yes it costs more. But anyone claiming world gawn maaad when you can pick up an XT cassette for 30quid is pushing it a little.
I have to say I am a little surprised SRAM punted their "cheap" 11 speed kit out in XD flavour only. Making it HG FH compatible with a cheaper 11th small sprocket, could have helped them stitch up the OEM market further letting bike builders spec any hub they fancied, this group still ties you to XD. They may yet bring out an HG version I reckon, less range, lower price don't reckon they're finished yet.
Shimano need to get a rustle on with their XT-SLX range of 11 speed groupsets.
It's always the people who are still running 9 speed and have never tried 11 speed who say it is terrible and overpriced marketing trick...
PS the point about Nico Lau using a double set up is moot because it is Di2 so just one shifter and the front mech sorts it self out
PS the point about Nico Lau using a double set up is moot because it is Di2 so just one shifter and the front mech sorts it self out
He is only just running it. Before he was on the prehistoric two shifter setup.
It's always the people who are still running 9 speed and have never tried 11 speed who say it is terrible and overpriced marketing trick
Well it's not a "trick" there will of course be some functional benefits to having one extra, bigger sprocket at the top and a smaller one at the bottom of the cassette, but let's not over-sell these things, and let's not pretend that stamped and pinned steel sprockets are some exceptional new technology, it's minor refinement of the same basic manufacturing technology used to make most cassettes for the last 40 odd years innit... £115 list price is a piss take, but it will come down rapidly.